TwoWayFutures

At a guess, if you can manage to make money trading DAX with IG, you will almost certainly be better of with FuturesBetting.com (the company for whom TwoWay are an introducer). The spread for index futures, particulary DAX, is already extortionate.....

Hey I never said I make money, I just want to lose it less rapidly! I'm an uber bear & the last 8 weeks have been nothing short of a tragedy! But I'm stilll standing. :cheesy:

BTW Why go via TWF as opposed to futuresbetting.com direct (normally cutting out the middleman is the way to go?!)

Thanks for your comments.

If I don't want to avoid the tax...which is the better vehicle for trading (ie who do you use?)
 
Hey I never said I make money, I just want to lose it less rapidly! I'm an uber bear & the last 8 weeks have been nothing short of a tragedy! But I'm stilll standing. :cheesy:

BTW Why go via TWF as opposed to futuresbetting.com direct (normally cutting out the middleman is the way to go?!)

Thanks for your comments.

If I don't want to avoid the tax...which is the better vehicle for trading (ie who do you use?)

if it not the tax situation you are concerned about then imo it is impossible to beat ib for cost and spread. allthough there charts are basic. you only get what you pay for. i have account with f betting and ib.
 
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The commissions for futuresbetting are just silly aren't they, unless you trade very large size? IB are great but from what I can tell TwoWayFutures are a good for a retail trader if the tax issue is important.
 
if it not the tax situation you are concerned about then imo it is impossible to beat ib for cost and spread. allthough there charts are basic. you only get what you pay for. i have account with f betting and ib.

Do IB deduct tax at source from any profit made, or is that down to each trader to sort with the bloke in the pinstripe suit & glasses?
 
Futuresbetting seems to have changed its transaction structure since I last looked. It's now based entirely on the spread rather than commissions. 4 points on the mini Down if you trade 50 or less contracts? That's expensive.

IB doesn't deduct tax at source in the UK
 
Futuresbetting seems to have changed its transaction structure since I last looked. It's now based entirely on the spread rather than commissions. 4 points on the mini Down if you trade 50 or less contracts? That's expensive.
Thanks, it may be expensive in comparison to say IB, but 4 points is what I'm getting now *except* with IG the price gets skewed, so it's still a better deal!

I started applying online with IB, but I lost the will to live after the 8th page. I don't consider myself clueless, but there's a lot of stuff that's not obvious (to me at least). For example, I want to trade S&P futures, therefore I guess I need the CME, but the only option I can choose is CME floor...this has an '*' against it which when I look says that bid & ask are seldom quoted on floor.

So you have to be an expert on the exchanges to know what to ask for...as an end user (& coming from a SB company where this aspect is all 'under the bonnet') I don't care where my exchange is...I just want to trade the instrument!

Also, I don't want to be tonked by lots of different exchange fees yet it seems I will be if I want to say trade DAX, FTSE & US Indice futures (cut me some slack here...plenty of trading experience but not with direct market access). So I think, ok I'll ring them but couldn't find any obvious UK based number (that said I was speed reading!)

It all seems a little bit onerous.
 
Globex is free with the US bundle. I used to spread bet but now I can't imagine not trading directly on the exchange. It's a world of difference compared to the bookmaker crooks of IG. Then again IB is definitely a self-help broker so check out the UK website and spend a while gathering the information you need. It's worth the effort.
 
Futuresbetting seems to have changed its transaction structure since I last looked. It's now based entirely on the spread rather than commissions. 4 points on the mini Down if you trade 50 or less contracts? That's expensive.

IB doesn't deduct tax at source in the UK

Hi Notouch,

I think you may have forgotten that with FB and with any broker offering DMA, you can place your orders inside the bid/offer quote.

Fibonelli
 
I was wondering how that worked. Can you see the bids and offers on the DOM display in the same way you can with a "normal" broker? If so how would FB make money if all your orders were limit orders (as mine generally are)?
 
Yes you can see the the resting orders and they have a trading ladder like a lot of brokers.

They make money through the spread which is added to the normal exchange spread : so for instance a half point exchange spread such as dax or ftse with lets say for example Two way's half point added spread wrapper means you would dealing with a total spread of 1 point on entry in to the market wether it's a limit or market order, it makes no difference.

I would guess that they would follow the better trader's entries as well if they had any sense.

Fills are almost instant and prices are true to the market. There is no price skewing in my experience and it is definately a level playing field in that respect.

When I did have occasion to contact customer service they were very helpful and available.

The down side --

The biggest draw for Two way is the tax free profits ( trading dma via a spread bet wrapper ) . I have never got to the stage where I was able to find out first hand if this was the case. The British Inland revenue has a category I believe where profits ( if they are your main source of income ) are taxable. I would persue this line if this is your main objective. I am not an expert here and would like to hear from winning traders experiences on this but if that angle is taken away it throws a different light as to why you may want to trade with Two way.

There were concerns earlier in this thread as regards segregation of funds and under whose juristiction it falls as when you deal with Two way they are based in Gibralter. I'm not sure wether this was answered satisfactorily,things may have changed.

Lastly if you are a low volume trader as I was whilst I woulden't use the word harassed thier actions towards me did not fall far short of this. I kept getting phone calls " is everything all right " " would you like someone to go over the platform with you ". Then a little more direct such as a pop up message on screen saying " always on and never trading " and others which I can't recall right now and worst of all just disconnecting me.

I readily admit I was a low volume customer , I was a losing trader at that time and diden't see the point in trading for trading sakes as all that was likely to do was compound losses.I was online testing watching and evaluating and yes the occasional trade. I was certainly made to feel uncomfortable in that respect.I believe a price per month for the platform was mentioned and it was obvious that they were losing money on my account.

However I woulden't put anyone off using them if they trade higher volumes as thier business is geared towards that. They make no secret that they want intermediate traders or above and the spread / volume ratio reflects that.

If you are trading £10 - £30 a point currently with IG and suffer price skewing then there are plenty of better alternatives out there, DMA is definately a consideration. I hope you were joking No Touch when you said that you diden't make any money as at those trade sizes you must have deep pockets or you are going to blow your trading bank very quickly.
 
Yes you can see the the resting orders and they have a trading ladder like a lot of brokers.

They make money through the spread which is added to the normal exchange spread : so for instance a half point exchange spread such as dax or ftse with lets say for example Two way's half point added spread wrapper means you would dealing with a total spread of 1 point on entry in to the market wether it's a limit or market order, it makes no difference.
I'm still a bit confused here. I trade mainly Dow futures with IB at the moment. The spread is generally one point and you can see the best 10 bids and offers on the DOM. Let say the current best bid/offer is 13625/13626. TWF's best bid/offer would be something like 13623/13627. So if you placed a limit order at 13620 would it be sent to the exchange as a 13620 limit order, or would it be sent as a 13622 limit order? I can't understand how you would trade on the exchange when the prices you're seeing are 2 points off the prices everyone else is seeing.

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If you are trading £10 - £30 a point currently with IG and suffer price skewing then there are plenty of better alternatives out there, DMA is definately a consideration. I hope you were joking No Touch when you said that you diden't make any money as at those trade sizes you must have deep pockets or you are going to blow your trading bank very quickly.

You must have me confused with someone else. I don't trade with IG but with IB. I'm a profitable position trader mainly. Sometimes I only make a few trades a month. I like my broker to just leave me alone and charge me as little as possible and judging by what you've said TWF wouldn't fit the bill.
 
I apologise notouch,it was in fact hobby that said that.

You see the exact same prices as anyone else on the exchange including depth of market.If you were to hover your cursor over any price then a small pop up shows the price you would be actually trading at including the full spread. So for instance if you wanted a to enter a limit at 13610 then when you hover the cursor over that price it will show 13612 in blue and 13608 in red ( assuming Two way spreads are still the same ). So if I remember rightly you will be filled at 13610 when the market reaches that point of course and will immediately be 2 points in the hole. Then when you come to close the same thing happens at your closing price and the other 2 points is added making 4 points in all for the spread. So buy and get filled at 13610 but in actual fact your virtual fill is at 13612 and sell and get filled at 13620 your virtual price will be 13618 so actual profit will be 6 points.

Sorry that is not crystal clear but I can't be bothered retyping it all again.This is all from memory as I no longer have an account with them. Best bet is to phone Adrian and clarify this and the lower volume trading as they have changed thier pricing structure since I left them I believe and they may be more tolerant of lower volume traders
 
Thanks for the explanation - it is crystal clear. I'll probably check out futuresbetting seeing as they are now offering the same 4 point spread deal. I can't see any real benefit to TWF over futuresbetting.
 
I apologise notouch,it was in fact hobby that said that.

It was part tongue in cheek...I've made money, lost it, made it, lost it...made it big time during the Feb/Mar early rout...lost it & then some.

This has caused me to take a step back & assess the situation, the conclusions I've come to are....

1. I need to be playing on an even playing field.
2. I really ought to avoid the DAX & Dow (though they still remain my favourites). My reasoning is that with so few constituents, you get too much indice skewing (& it's already hard enough trying to beat the SB'ers with theirs!). For example, in late March Caterpillar's share price went mental which dragged the Dow up even though most Dow constituents were falling. I guess there's a reason that most professionals trade the S&P!
3. I've got to drop the uber bear stance & start trading to the longside...however to do this I need a platform with more flexible stop loss failities.
4. Absolutely *NO* chasing losses.

My trading mentality/style doesn't lend itself to IG.....I have a live market price feed from one of the big vendors & it sends me absolutely spare when I see the disparity between the true DAX cash market price & IG's representation of it (it's not unusual to see the price some 5 points out of kilter on the DAX....which makes IG's seemingly small two point DAX spread a bit of a joke).

I have a thing that if a trade doesn't go my way in the first 10 mins, then in all likeliehood I was wrong to get into it in the 1st place. ...& would therefore like to get out - but even after years & years of trading, I still find losses a bit hard to take on the chin! The problem with IG & their spread + price skew is say with the DAX you can be nursing a 7 point loss pretty much instantly....then, if the market goes against you say 10 points you could be looking at 15-20 points in short order. It's then a fight as you watch in disbelief at the market approaching your break entry point only to have IG not replicating it in synchronicity...it really is exhausting. Then the market invariably takes off with me still in it (on the wrong side!)...simply because I wasn't really given the chance to get out with no loss (or a small loss)....cos of the spread/skew. This has cost me thousands over the years. I realise it's in part down to my pig headedness (ie I want my money back or close to), but hey, I know my weaknesses & I doubt I can change that easily so this is why I seek a different platform which doesn't skew & allows me to at least exit with minimum loss!

I can only assume that the reason there aren't more spread better up in arms on here, is *because* most have no live feed to compare ithe SB provider's price against!

My game plan...

1. Trade less.
2. Get a better platform with absolutely no price skewing! (lower spreads a bonus)
3. Trade the S&P *only* (perhaps the Nasdaq)
4. Start hitting single runs as opposed to trying to whack the ball out of the stadium.
5. Consider going long once in a while! (unthinkable on a **** platform wrt stop losses such as IG's)


I've reigned my trading in of late (had a tendency to over trade...mainly when I'm losing), so it's a little worrying to hear that TWF were kind of goading you into trading.

What would a good alternative be?

Thanks for the explanation - it is crystal clear. I'll probably check out futuresbetting seeing as they are now offering the same 4 point spread deal. I can't see any real benefit to TWF over futuresbetting.

Not understanding this bit? .....who is offering the same 4 point spread deal & what on? If you're talking about the Dow, then a 4 point spread is what the spreadbetters quote, so where's the benefit? (don't they sell themselves on better spreads than the spread betters...even for low volume traders?) Also can someone explain why TWF should be used vs futuresbetting.com or vice versa? (from my understanding TWF are agents for futuresbetting...so why not just straight to source?)
 
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Not understanding this bit? .....who is offering the same 4 point spread deal & what on? If you're talking about the Dow, then a 4 point spread is what the spreadbetters quote, so where's the benefit? (don't they sell themselves on better spreads than the spread betters...even for low volume traders?) Also can someone explain why TWF should be used vs futuresbetting.com or vice versa? (from my understanding TWF are agents for futuresbetting...so why not just straight to source?)

That's what I'm saying, TWF are agents for futuresbetting so you may as well go to futuresbetting. The benefit of futuresbetting/TWF over other spread betters is direct access to the exchange. In terms of cost you're much better off with a broker like IB (who I'm with at the moment and love) but there are tax benefits with futuresbetting so you get the best of both worlds (direct access to the exchange but with the tax advantages of betting).
 
That's what I'm saying, TWF are agents for futuresbetting so you may as well go to futuresbetting. The benefit of futuresbetting/TWF over other spread betters is direct access to the exchange. In terms of cost you're much better off with a broker like IB (who I'm with at the moment and love) but there are tax benefits with futuresbetting so you get the best of both worlds (direct access to the exchange but with the tax advantages of betting).

Everyone raves about IB, but what are the monthly costs involved to say have a dma feed for the s&p future?
 
The one thing that drove me away from their web site quite quickly was that nowhere are they telling you what you are letting yourself in for, what you are committing yourself to as far as pricing is concerned. Before I think about buying anything I want to know the price. If I can see this is being hidden from me I run. That's quite basic I think.
 
Well jack o'clubs, apples10,dcarrigan, scalper systems. Its been several years since you all spoke highly of this new firm, are you all still happy them?
 
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