JTrader
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Engineering to me, who knows nothing about it sounds like a high specification and challenging career/job role, for the brainy kids, perhaps involving long hours, heavy commitment, and lifelong training and development. A very male environment perhaps.
Imagine that the pay is better than in most careers.
Imagine that the pay is better than in most careers.
jtrader - it's a bit all work and no play - plus no ladies which really gets me down.
Hungvir - you've got no idea how hard it is getting a job as either an engineer or for the BBC. I believe I already have the rejection letter from them, or maybe they didn't even bother to reply to my application.
Well either way I don't think the argument will be resolved without a radical plan.
Hungvir - you've got no idea how hard it is getting a job as either an engineer or for the BBC. I believe I already have the rejection letter from them, or maybe they didn't even bother to reply to my application.
Well either way I don't think the argument will be resolved without a radical plan.
JTrader
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Top Gear winter olympics special!
To be honest, when i hear the term Mechanical Enginer, i just picture a factory shop floor, lathes and other machinery, engine parts and steel girders. Perhaps this may be somewhat stereotypical.
I thought mechanical engineers were in short supply in this country and that most graduates found work in the field fairly easily?
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Well OK he we go:
I am a Research & Development Stress Engineer. I work for a Non destructive testing company - which makes electromagnetic kit to find cracks in metallic structures. My job is to develop a stress measurement kit based on the same technology. It is quite unique.
I am a Research & Development Stress Engineer. I work for a Non destructive testing company - which makes electromagnetic kit to find cracks in metallic structures. My job is to develop a stress measurement kit based on the same technology. It is quite unique.
SOCRATES
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Yes, I agree with you millsy. It is only one of a family of severely ingrained problems.millsy500 said:
One dilemma is to know exactly where to start with such a huge task, which is superhuman.
Some wag ventured to post on this site some time ago and I quote:~
"Sometimes Socrates is correct......although I am reluctant to give him too much credit in case he is picking someone else's brains....LOL....
...... 
timsk
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Hi Nick,Tubbs said:
This sounds like a really interesting job to me! Some observations on your situation, if I may . . .
The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Like you, I'm not committed to my current profession and hope to be able to trade for a living instead - one day. Also like you, I'm a long way off being consistently profitable. All of this makes for a lot of frustration: not being able to do what I want to do and not really enjoying what I am doing. The solution? For me, it is to look for the positives in my current job and focus on them. This time last year I was a Landscape Gardener. When I think of the awful weather we've had these past few weeks, I feel very glad of my current job - working indoors! I now work in the print trade and most of the jobs that I work on are for rubbish leaflets that are poorly designed (not by my Co.) to promote a rubbish product or service which, for the most part, I think the world would be better off without. (Primarily, I'm thinking of upvc double glazing here.) However, it seems to me that you are engaged in an area of engineering that is clearly very important with obvious health and safety benefits. If I were in your shoes, this is something that I would feel really good about, knowing that I'm involved with something that really matters and could, potentially, have a positive impact upon other peoples lives. That's something to be very proud of, IMO.
As for the trading - relax, there's no hurry! While you remain interested in it - keep chipping away. You aren't wasting your time so long as you enjoy it - even if you never make any money. When I left art college back in the early 80's, my first job was to pound the streets of Bristol knocking on doors trying to flog life insurance. A tough first job! I did it for six months. Total earnings in that time: £600. Quite literally I had holes in my one and only pair of shoes and my feet got soaked every time it rained. On the face of it, it was a disastrous start in the big wide world. I was a 'failure' - I couldn't sell for toffee! Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing. The people I met, the experiences that I had, the lessons I learnt and the sheer growing up that I did in those six months far outweigh the obvious lack of financial success. You may not yet be a consistently profitable trader and you may never be one. That doesn't mean that you're wasting your time or not getting anything positive from your efforts. You are, even if it doesn't feel that way right now.
Tim.
Thought provoking
Tubbs
• You need to take responsibility for your own future and not blame it on others. To be fair to you, you did accept that fact further down the thread.
• You need to analyse why trading is all you want to do for a living.
As Hungvir says it will take time, money and energy so you need to question your motives for doing it, before investing all these personal resources. Furthermore you must be prepared to carry it out to a satisfactory conclusion.
Jtrader pointed out the enigma of trading and the lack of certainty. So is your dilemma that you are looking for a high degree of certainty – the type of mathematical, geometric and precise certainty you may find in engineering ? Trading is more a matter of a balance of probabilities combined with good money management.
There was a faschinating article in Traders Magazine April 2006 on this point. I include a few quotes:
“At the beginning of their careers, many traders depend on technical analysis for their success. This is not surprising of course because on the surface technical analysis promises a certain control over pricess. And deadling with technical analysis is like dealing with a lot of other things in life. People are looking for a way to control things.”
The article goes on to explain how developing a trading system suffers from the problem that “optimsing the system is similar to slowly closing the window blind”, which results in fewer and fewer opportunities.
To open up trades, it says, requires constant adjustment of parameters, but this increases risk. It concludes that
“so realising consistent profits requires approaching the market in an entirely different way that technical analysis alone would demand. First every trader must understand that control over prices can ultimately never be attaned. And if it is not attainable then it is not worth pursuing”
The article then explores the parameters that can be controlled, namely risk and position size.
It seems to me that you need to reassess your strategy, because clearly your analysis is not effective. Perhaps some of the points that the article makes about controlling risk and acceptance of probabilities might help here.
I also agree with Jtraders’s comments about balance in life and it seems that you need to take a break to achieve this. As Openmind suggested, now is the time to sit back and work on your trading plan and paper trader
With regards to your work as an engineer, which in one post, you stated that you hate, I think you should again step back to re-evaluate your skills and experiences. It’s very easy to think that you are stuck in one line of work, but most skills and experiences are transferable. You might try searching on the web for assistance in this area. Here’s one for starters:
http://www.open.ac.uk/careers/pages/ou-study/brief-guide-to-career-planning.php#a2
Finally I would like to thank you for starting a very thought-provoking thread that is generating plenty of interesting comment and wish you every success in your re-evaluation.
Charlton
Tubbs said:
Tubbs
• You need to take responsibility for your own future and not blame it on others. To be fair to you, you did accept that fact further down the thread.
• You need to analyse why trading is all you want to do for a living.
As Hungvir says it will take time, money and energy so you need to question your motives for doing it, before investing all these personal resources. Furthermore you must be prepared to carry it out to a satisfactory conclusion.
Jtrader pointed out the enigma of trading and the lack of certainty. So is your dilemma that you are looking for a high degree of certainty – the type of mathematical, geometric and precise certainty you may find in engineering ? Trading is more a matter of a balance of probabilities combined with good money management.
There was a faschinating article in Traders Magazine April 2006 on this point. I include a few quotes:
“At the beginning of their careers, many traders depend on technical analysis for their success. This is not surprising of course because on the surface technical analysis promises a certain control over pricess. And deadling with technical analysis is like dealing with a lot of other things in life. People are looking for a way to control things.”
The article goes on to explain how developing a trading system suffers from the problem that “optimsing the system is similar to slowly closing the window blind”, which results in fewer and fewer opportunities.
To open up trades, it says, requires constant adjustment of parameters, but this increases risk. It concludes that
“so realising consistent profits requires approaching the market in an entirely different way that technical analysis alone would demand. First every trader must understand that control over prices can ultimately never be attaned. And if it is not attainable then it is not worth pursuing”
The article then explores the parameters that can be controlled, namely risk and position size.
Tubbs said:
It seems to me that you need to reassess your strategy, because clearly your analysis is not effective. Perhaps some of the points that the article makes about controlling risk and acceptance of probabilities might help here.
I also agree with Jtraders’s comments about balance in life and it seems that you need to take a break to achieve this. As Openmind suggested, now is the time to sit back and work on your trading plan and paper trader
OpenMind said:
With regards to your work as an engineer, which in one post, you stated that you hate, I think you should again step back to re-evaluate your skills and experiences. It’s very easy to think that you are stuck in one line of work, but most skills and experiences are transferable. You might try searching on the web for assistance in this area. Here’s one for starters:
http://www.open.ac.uk/careers/pages/ou-study/brief-guide-to-career-planning.php#a2
Finally I would like to thank you for starting a very thought-provoking thread that is generating plenty of interesting comment and wish you every success in your re-evaluation.
Charlton
charliechan
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1. take a break. dont even look at a quote, a chart or any trading stuff on the web for a week or 2. if you dont have the discipline to do this, then maybe you dont have the discipline to trade. in this time away, the first few days may be difficult, but after a while you will start to think of different things to fill your thoughts. after a break, you may be able to see things from a fresh light. at least you will realise you life is not ruined.
2. trading part time (while having a full time job) is naturally going to take a longer time than someone who is full time. just as someone who is full time with no mentor will take longer than someone who does have a mentor (assuming the mentor is successful). how long? ive no concrete example, but 5 years part time wouldnt surprise me.
3. you may have already done this, but if not do it: specialise. find what sort of trading suits you and your part time lifestyle and stick to it like glue. DO NOT DEVIATE even if you are unsuccessful for a while. if you keep changing you will take longer. the options you have are probably day trading after work for a few hours, and position trading - either stocks or spread trading the futures markets. the problem with trying to day trade after work (for me) would be relaxing and giving 100% focus on the market, including say an hour to get in the right frame of mind for day trading between work and trading. you need to be like an athlete to day trade imo. i only mention this because so many people think of day trading when it may not be the best method. personally, i would go for trading spreads. little money is needed, and is fairly quick and easy to learn the ideas. remember the dedication part.
keep positive.
2. trading part time (while having a full time job) is naturally going to take a longer time than someone who is full time. just as someone who is full time with no mentor will take longer than someone who does have a mentor (assuming the mentor is successful). how long? ive no concrete example, but 5 years part time wouldnt surprise me.
3. you may have already done this, but if not do it: specialise. find what sort of trading suits you and your part time lifestyle and stick to it like glue. DO NOT DEVIATE even if you are unsuccessful for a while. if you keep changing you will take longer. the options you have are probably day trading after work for a few hours, and position trading - either stocks or spread trading the futures markets. the problem with trying to day trade after work (for me) would be relaxing and giving 100% focus on the market, including say an hour to get in the right frame of mind for day trading between work and trading. you need to be like an athlete to day trade imo. i only mention this because so many people think of day trading when it may not be the best method. personally, i would go for trading spreads. little money is needed, and is fairly quick and easy to learn the ideas. remember the dedication part.
keep positive.
PurplePerson
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Lest anyone think I was unnecessarily harsh on you Tubbs, in my initial response (page 1), let me clarify that my reading of your opening post was that you were putting your (so far) limited success as a trader down to the government, the state of the country, etc. Like someone leaning on a bar and moaning into his beer.
I certainly am harsh, always, on any trader who seeks scapegoats for a lack of success or progress in their trading - whether they blame the marketmakers, the brokers, the markets, the unnamed manipulators, shorters, the government or whoever.
From your subsequent posts I see that you were applying those excuses to your engineering career rather than your trading. And with hindsight I can now see that it is possible to read that in your opening post.
I totally agree with Charlton's excellent post (No35).
I also agree with some of the points others have raised with regard to how the marketplace might frustrate someone with an engineer's mindset.
Faced with a machine in which vibration is a significant issue, an engineer might initially focus on the source of that vibration, and look at ways of eliminating resonances, rebalancing masses, or repositioning supports, etc, etc. But once the scope for doing so is more or less exhausted, it becomes an issue of accommodating/cushioning whatever vibration remains, rather than fighting it to the death. No engineer likes doing so any earlier than absolutely necessary. Excessive reliance on cushioning implies a lack of rigour somewhere.
Anyone who attempts to refine away the (sometimes random) bumps and bangs of the stockmarket to a degree that might please an engineer is not going to be happy. There are just too many uncontrollable variables. Far better to have in place a money management system that limits the damage any shock can do, and which captures gains that might otherwise escape. (I don't want to overdo the mechanical analogy, but maybe picture the trailing stoploss as a ratchet?) . Even if this seems to be a system of accommodating or cushioning irregularities rather than properly ironing them out.
And maybe relax the definition of what constitutes failure? My sister didn't pass her driving test at the first attempt but insisted "I haven't failed. I've just not yet succeeded."
Check out the parameters that you've set for yourself, and maybe rejig them. This doesn't mean abandoning a target - it just means taking a slightly different route to it. If I am in a wheelchair, looking to get from Level One to Level Two, and there is a choice of two curved ramps, the longer one can actually take the shorter time if I can whizz up that one with greater ease. You might be on the right mountain but climbing the wrong face. Just yards away from an easier path
I know you have expressed dissatisfaction with engineering as your current career - so maybe my amateur attempt at viewing markets in this way is exactly what you don't want!
But I am assuming that whatever first took you into engineering is something which does affect your approach (whether you want it to or not!).
pp
I certainly am harsh, always, on any trader who seeks scapegoats for a lack of success or progress in their trading - whether they blame the marketmakers, the brokers, the markets, the unnamed manipulators, shorters, the government or whoever.
From your subsequent posts I see that you were applying those excuses to your engineering career rather than your trading. And with hindsight I can now see that it is possible to read that in your opening post.
I totally agree with Charlton's excellent post (No35).
I also agree with some of the points others have raised with regard to how the marketplace might frustrate someone with an engineer's mindset.
Faced with a machine in which vibration is a significant issue, an engineer might initially focus on the source of that vibration, and look at ways of eliminating resonances, rebalancing masses, or repositioning supports, etc, etc. But once the scope for doing so is more or less exhausted, it becomes an issue of accommodating/cushioning whatever vibration remains, rather than fighting it to the death. No engineer likes doing so any earlier than absolutely necessary. Excessive reliance on cushioning implies a lack of rigour somewhere.
Anyone who attempts to refine away the (sometimes random) bumps and bangs of the stockmarket to a degree that might please an engineer is not going to be happy. There are just too many uncontrollable variables. Far better to have in place a money management system that limits the damage any shock can do, and which captures gains that might otherwise escape. (I don't want to overdo the mechanical analogy, but maybe picture the trailing stoploss as a ratchet?) . Even if this seems to be a system of accommodating or cushioning irregularities rather than properly ironing them out.
And maybe relax the definition of what constitutes failure? My sister didn't pass her driving test at the first attempt but insisted "I haven't failed. I've just not yet succeeded."
Check out the parameters that you've set for yourself, and maybe rejig them. This doesn't mean abandoning a target - it just means taking a slightly different route to it. If I am in a wheelchair, looking to get from Level One to Level Two, and there is a choice of two curved ramps, the longer one can actually take the shorter time if I can whizz up that one with greater ease. You might be on the right mountain but climbing the wrong face. Just yards away from an easier path
I know you have expressed dissatisfaction with engineering as your current career - so maybe my amateur attempt at viewing markets in this way is exactly what you don't want!
But I am assuming that whatever first took you into engineering is something which does affect your approach (whether you want it to or not!).
pp
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PurplePerson said:...My sister didn't pass her driving test at the first attempt but insisted "I haven't failed. I've just not yet succeeded."
pp
I passed my driving test at my fourth attempt
And now I am 'drving' without a license in the market PurplePerson
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Would that be stock car racing?hungvir said:... And now I am 'drving' without a license in the market
I'll get me coat
Some excellent posts everybody! Much appreciated and some very good points raised. I do think that an engineering mind tries to be too precise with the markets and it is something that needs a re-adjustemet. In terms of my career I agree that I am in quite a fortunate position. However, it's not a position I haven't earned and I should really be able to change after a few years without problems. This isn't proving to be so easy. I must say though that this forum has really come up trumps from a number of sides and I think the moral support is excellent. It shows the internet can be a very powerful place. Thankyou
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