Trading is easy - making money is hard

[Black Swan]

Most pussies think they are ready to trade in one year.All these pussycats are S and P traders ,counter trend monkeys,support and resistance traders /random zone traders and swingers on Tarzan's rope.

Clicking a mouse button and placing a buy or sell order isn't trading,it is gambling buy is black and sell is red, your broker did not tell you that.You need knowledge and skill before clicking the mouse.

All these gamblers who are not professional traders but gamblers.

Professional don't trade every day, and some days do not need to trade at all.Those who rely on a daily wage are f**cked up traders who often trade without an edge.They will only see true profitable set ups two or three times a week, the rest is gambling.

It will take several years to be consistently profitable.

Does that help?

Not entirely sure which is funnier, the hypocrisy, the irony, the sweet hint of bitter invective, or the fact that you're just plain wrong...knock yourself out.. :rambo:

 

[GladiatorX]

Thats like saying

'Roulette is easy, making money is hard'

You play roulette doubling up, you keep winning, you keep winning ... but every now and again your bet size gets too big and it wipes you out



Although i know this isn't the case with you, was just a joke.

 

[oildaytrader]

Not entirely sure which is funnier, the hypocrisy, the irony, the sweet hint of bitter invective, or the fact that you're just plain wrong...knock yourself out.. :rambo:

Go on tell everybody you are trading with your 20 trades a day at bucketshop gold index.

and tell them ,S and P will close at number x or 1150 , yet on the roulete you will have a different number.Thats not trading ,its gambling on S and P.You win and lose, never overall profitable.

Trading profitable set ups with an edge is very different, the end result is very certain, better than the 50/50 chance, infact 75 % chance of a win.

O D T

 

[oildaytrader]

Well mate I have the highest respect for your mechanical trading, and I think that the advice you're giving him is wise, but it's not the only way to go about it is it.

Everyones gotta figure out what works for them right.

If you talk with Tom who was at Futex there they have some of the biggest players in the S&P's who are pure scalpers, as were most of their predecessors on the floor or their later off-floor brethren like Paul Rotter who has made 50 - 60 million €uros / year for over a decade scalping the bund.

This guy here was a consistent loser until he started scalping:

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/general-trading-chat/44624-55000-one-month.html

So while I agree with your point that for most it's much more sensible to trade off of higher time frames providing fewer high probability opportunities per week giving you more time to think things over, at the end of the day you'll have to do what provides the best mesh between your needs and personality which may well be diametrically opposed to what makes up the girl / guy next to you right.

If cutting losses very quickly poses no problems for you and profits start burning holes in your pockets pretty soon odds I'd say are pretty much against you that you'll succeed as a position trader, you just won't have the patience.

I think that's the biggest challenge in trading as in life, figuring out who you are, and what you want, two of the most important issues most probably remain clueless about for the remainder of their days on this planet I'd wager.

Which usually results in ending up where one didn't want to.

BSD i am in agreement with your post ,but don't really want new traders to get their nickers in a twist with scalping.It requires a different type of skill to scalp.Trading noise and wind isn't for new traders.

O D T

 

[oildaytrader]

I've done this about 3 times now and need to stop before I run out of money to trade with. Anybody else have or had this problem and solved it?

Here is nice set up .Look for these buy at bottom of channel when price reverses back to the trendline .There are a few nice set ups like this every week.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gen...easily-make-1000-per-year-24.html#post1065708

Here there were two today.Just look for intraday trends ,with small stops and good money management.

 

[wh92stang]

I know about setups, strategies etc. That is not what I'm asking. I can find great setups every day. My problem is with discipline. Waiting for prices to hit my levels, and in the 25% case my levels don't hold every once in a while I get a terrible idea and buy more to lower my cost average and end up getting killed. My problems are disipline and execution, not reading PASR.

 

[oildaytrader]

I know about setups, strategies etc. That is not what I'm asking. I can find great setups every day. My problem is with discipline. Waiting for prices to hit my levels, and in the 25% case my levels don't hold every once in a while I get a terrible idea and buy more to lower my cost average and end up getting killed. My problems are disipline and execution, not reading PASR.

Automate your trade management , if your platform allows.On metatrader platform, I look for trade setups and place the autotrade management Expert advisor to do the rest.It can place the order at your entry price.It calculates position size and does trade management i.e tsl,b/e and t/p.After seeing a set up ,I let the autotrader software do the work and walk away.

This way I don't mess up or interfere.

O D T

 

[mb325]

I know about setups, strategies etc. That is not what I'm asking. I can find great setups every day. My problem is with discipline. Waiting for prices to hit my levels, and in the 25% case my levels don't hold every once in a while I get a terrible idea and buy more to lower my cost average and end up getting killed. My problems are disipline and execution, not reading PASR.

Elitejets posted this on another thread (I forget which). You might find it useful.

http://www.4shared.com/file/96740657/227e2748/Mark_Douglas_-_Mind_Over_Market.html

 

[meanreversion]

I know about setups, strategies etc. That is not what I'm asking. I can find great setups every day. My problem is with discipline. Waiting for prices to hit my levels, and in the 25% case my levels don't hold every once in a while I get a terrible idea and buy more to lower my cost average and end up getting killed. My problems are disipline and execution, not reading PASR.

Lack of discipline is an issue for most traders, I'm no exception. It's that moment when you trade and your heart is beating fast, perhaps a little sweat on your brow, as you add to a position which has already gone through your previously set mental stop.. you KNOW this is going back up.

This is where we all fall down. It sounds to me like you have some good trading strategies to begin with.. why not write down all your rules (try to make it as simple as possible) and then keep a trading diary with a mark of 1-10 on how well you kept to your rules. You'll probably find that if you stick to your rules over time you'll do well, and take the adrenaline out of trading. Ultimately, you're just trying to make consistent profits.. if you want a rush, do a parachute jump or visit Alton Towers..

 

[Black Swan]

Go on tell everybody you are trading with your 20 trades a day at bucketshop gold index.

and tell them ,S and P will close at number x or 1150 , yet on the roulete you will have a different number.Thats not trading ,its gambling on S and P.You win and lose, never overall profitable.

Trading profitable set ups with an edge is very different, the end result is very certain, better than the 50/50 chance, infact 75 % chance of a win.

O D T

Hmmm....you stated;

"Most pussies think they are ready to trade in one year.All these pussycats are S and P traders ,counter trend monkeys,support and resistance traders /random zone traders and swingers on Tarzan's rope.

Clicking a mouse button and placing a buy or sell order isn't trading,it is gambling buy is black and sell is red, your broker did not tell you that.You need knowledge and skill before clicking the mouse.

All these gamblers who are not professional traders but gamblers.

Professional don't trade every day, and some days do not need to trade at all.Those who rely on a daily wage are f**cked up traders who often trade without an edge.They will only see true profitable set ups two or three times a week, the rest is gambling.

It will take several years to be consistently profitable."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other than (arguably) the part highlighted in red the rest is bizarre. Quite frankly I find it absurd that you could opine what you did with such misplaced conviction...I'm not surprised that you continued with more of the same in your later reply ...

I know a guy on 'ere who takes on average 65 trades a day on equities (in 2 defined sessions). A guy on this thread operates v. succesfully off ten minute TFs, we've exchanged PMs, have similar views/methods, and I have absolute belief that he's a smart profitable operator.

Do you honestly believe that in prop houses, or at credible intstitutions they don't have a small army of guys and girls 'scalping' away (on all sort of exotic securites) ?

It's frightening that you're so wedded to your own prejudices and pre-conceptions, on how and what to trade...good luck with that, hope it works out for you...

BTW, same old for me today, same edge, same method across 7 pairs, eleven day trades, 7 winners (loonie trade still *live* since midday)...just closed UJ, thanks for asking...

 

[oildaytrader]

I mainly trade Crude oil futures and EurUsd.

Are you losing out on crude trades or euro/usd?Which one is losing more money?

Everybody has a good sequence of wins, confidence gets to peak high,positions get increased and losing streak starts.SOLUTION STICK TO SAME POSITION SIZE.

Crude kicks about all over the place (contrary to what mentors say, if they agreed their beliefs on t/a would be useless), it is a good trender but a rough trender which knocks you out of good trades regularly.Stick to euro/usd.

Try testing your discipline on demo accounts for a month.

If you want to experience auto traders , try here

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gen...08-learning-profitable-automated-trading.html

O D T

 

[wh92stang]

My big losses have come on crude. I am limiting myself in the amount of contracts now. Crude is so hard because it makes so many fakeouts one way or the other, but the times it is not a fakeout can be huge moves in a matter of seconds.

 

[Black Swan]

My big losses have come on crude. I am limiting myself in the amount of contracts now. Crude is so hard because it makes so many fakeouts one way or the other, but the times it is not a fakeout can be huge moves in a matter of seconds.

I day trade/intra day trade currencies. However, I also trade crude, but only off the 4hr/ daily. Perhaps if you take a longer term view/up your TFs you won't recognise the symptoms you refer to...? You'll need bigger stops and you may have to alter your TA to cater specifically for this security's different behaviour/patterns but it's a good security to trade and with IG the spread is 4-5 atm...

 

[oildaytrader]

I day trade/intra day trade currencies. However, I also trade crude, but only off the 4hr/ daily. Perhaps if you take a longer term view/up your TFs you won't recognise the symptoms you refer to...? You'll need bigger stops and you may have to alter your TA to cater specifically for this security's different behaviour/patterns but it's a good security to trade and with IG the spread is 4-5 atm...

Also take trades mainly in the afternoon with U S session.

 

[HawkTrader]

one of the reasons i stopped day trading and swing/posistion trade now. mainly because you dont get caught up in the moment so much, what could be 5mins to think about a trade while day trading, could be a week or so to ponder your position while position trading. certainly helps!

Interesting but could you not get so much info that you end up confused and doubting your own analysis?

Obviously it's different for everyone.

 

[wh92stang]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and relating your experiences. Much appreciated. I'll begin my new more disciplined trading Monday. I think a very important point is to never go into a trade without a plan, and once you are in a trade, never deviate from your plan (at least as far as moving your max loss point). Never average into a losing trade UNLESS that was your plan from the beginning (i.e. take 1/2 position now, and if it falls X points buy the rest of the position).

 

[oildaytrader]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and relating your experiences. Much appreciated. I'll begin my new more disciplined trading Monday. I think a very important point is to never go into a trade without a plan, and once you are in a trade, never deviate from your plan (at least as far as moving your max loss point). Never average into a losing trade UNLESS that was your plan from the beginning (i.e. take 1/2 position now, and if it falls X points buy the rest of the position).

Your success may be due to luck or lucky runs on crude,just make sure it is not the case,it could be worst thing to happen to a trader.A few luck runs and trader believes he is a pro.

Just tread very slowly

 

[Mornemorkel]

Earning Money is not that easy as most of the people think or look for. You need to put in a lot of efforts at all hours to get the desired outcome from your websites. There is only one secret to earn money easily. Make Money Online increase your income at your own will. It's a very simple system. Anyone, even without any computer or technical knowledge, can get started right away.

 

[Yamato]

It's been one full year now of daytrading full time, and I am at the point where I am very confident in my trading abilities, and find it almost easy to make a consistent, reasonable profit day in and day out. HOWEVER, I am still losing money overall.

Every time I tie together a consistent profitable run (sometimes as much as 10-15 days straight of winning) I find myself taking more and more risk and eventually I give back all of my profits and then some. Is this common amongst those of you who trade full time? What I'm saying is if you give me a $10,000 account and say make $200 today with less than $200 max drawdown I'd say there's a 90% chance I can do it. But if you just put $10,000 into an account and let me do what I want with it, I might run it up to $12,000 over the course of 2 weeks. Then I'll say why $200/day, I can double my position sizes and make $400/day. Next thing I know I'll find my self on the wrong side of a trade that I believe will come back to me, double down, and it takes off even further against me and I'll lose all of my gains and then some. All on one really bad trade that I was significantly overleveraged on.

I've done this about 3 times now and need to stop before I run out of money to trade with. Anybody else have or had this problem and solved it?

Yes, I've had the same problem and here's how I solved it: I quit discretionary trading and opted for automated trading.

I've been trading for over 12 years. For the first 10 years, the experience you described wasn't the case with me, because I almost always lost, for several reasons: wrong broker, wrong instruments, wrong strategy.

After solving those problems, I still didn't become profitable, and, for the past 2 years, I've been exactly in the situation you describe: I'd win for 2 straight weeks or so, and then, in two days, lose everything I had made and more. I guess because of wrong money management, but also, after a while, I'd start screwing up on the strategy itself, because I can't keep my impulses under control, and because, if the strategy is discretionary, it is not defined clearly and univocally enough to resist any trading urges. I double up on losers because I get mad and irrational. I stop waiting for the right opportunity, either because I am mad for having lost money and want to make it back quickly, or too confident and excited for having succeeded. In discretionary trading, there's when to enter, when to exit, and how much to bet. Those are the three things you consistently have to do correctly in order to succeed, but "correctly" doesn't mean "successfully": you don't win every time just because you're doing things rationally. Well, for self-control problems which I couldn't solve, I cannot even do those three things rationally. And I am not saying I can trade rationally for 2 weeks and then stop. I can trade rationally for maybe a couple of days at the most, then start pushing my luck more and more and sooner or later I blow out my account. And it's pointless to keep on trying, after over 12 years. So I quit and now I just focus on automated trading, which is so much easier. Actually I sometimes wonder why I didn't quit sooner, when I am so much better at automated trading. The reason is that I was taught to do things that challenged me, and this seemed like a challenge I could conquer. But I was wrong, I couldn't fix my mind, and it now makes sense to quit my efforts to learn to trade discretionary, because the point of this is to make money and not to challenge oneself.

With discretionary trading I have not had a single profitable month within the 12 years I have been trading. With automated trading, it tends to be the contrary, because there's no impulses to worry about, the strategy is a good one because it's been back-tested and forward-tested. Everything seems to be perfect. It really makes you wonder why isn't everyone doing it. Partly because it seems too easy, and so some people don't even try it because they think it's an illusion. But mostly I think it's because it requires a lot of work, and most of those who try it, stop before doing what's required. I don't even know if I've done what's required because I haven't made any money with it yet (actually I have made it but then lost it with discretionary trading). Certainly for me it's much easier to make money with automated trading than discretionary trading.

 

[chloe_wong]

oh, I really want to learn trading, dealing with stocks, hope I will have such opportunity in the future, then, I will come here to share your experiences about how to make money