The Journey from the Basement

[Rognvald]

This is a respite??
Hey I don't mind looking stupid - thats the only way to learn
The guy on the top step will claim a black hat.
Why - He can see people with black and white hats. He cannot see the peep behind the wall so to take a step up means a different hat to the one I have. The last step up was a white hat.ergo I must be a black hat

 

[firehorse]

At first I couldn't see how anyone could know what colour hat they have,
then you factor in they can talk to each other,
but then I can work out two people know what colour hats they have!

I think the number of black and white hats are immaterial in my scenario.

Substitute guy for girl where appropriate!

Guy behind wall can't see a wall whereas the other three can, so he is in a diffferent location.

Top step guy can see white hat one step down, and black hat in front of wall.
Second step guy can see black hat in front of wall.
Guy in front of wall can see wall.

If the top guy calls out what he sees, then guy in front of wall knows he is wearing a black hat and second step guy knows he is wearing white hat.

See ... I'm confused as to why only one person knows ... unless that was part of the trick question!

I'll go to the back of the class again! (still studying previous posts!)
--
Alan

edit
"Nobody will be deliberately silent." - I thought this meant they could talk to each other - after re-reading Rognvald - I think I made a booboo - however that makes an assumption that different steps mean a different colour ... which does not have to be.

 

[SOCRATES]

Frugi, look at page 20 on this thread.

You obviously have difficulties coming to terms with understanding manipulation of price in order to complete accumulation.

Look at your post #794. I went to a lot of bother to describe to you a model using the Twig Bird to illustrate accumulation and how it is carried out. This is a lot of work for me and I don't mind doing it for an audience that is worthy of being helped.

However it seems you don't bother to study it. You are the one who needs help, as your knowledge of this topic is not sufficient for you to realise the significance of what is being explained mainly for your benefit.

Now you surface again, exactly 271 posts later, having ignored what you should not have ignored. We are not here to be amused by brain teasers. we are here to improve our knowledge of trading, market behaviour, and ourselves. I correct this, you are ~ I am not , I have cracked all this a long time ago.

You obviously have not. Don't you think you should be putting your attention on learning and improving your lot instead of providing us with irrelevant nonsense please ?

 

[frugi]

That's an excellent answer Rognvald, though not the one I was looking for, sorry.

Firehorse you are close but I forgot to mention they can't speak to each other. Only one speaks once to say "I have a x coloured hat" and that is the end of it.

Socrates I very much appreciated the effort you put into the Twig Bird stories and indeed everything else you have contributed to this thread. I am sorry that my minuscule morsel of light hearted diversion has proved unwelcome. I shall of course refrain from adding further trivia and concentrate on improving my knowledge and technique.

Edited to remove my unecessary and petulant response to Socrates as quoted below, with many apologies. I am as keen to learn from the best as the next person and should, at the very least, be able to keep my ego in check if I am to up my game. I can assure you, Socrates, that I find your teachings extremely interesting and valuable. Thank you.

 

[SOCRATES]

That's an excellent answer Rognvald, though not the one I was looking for.

Firehorse you are close but I forgot to mention they can't speak to each other. Only one speaks once to say "I have a x coloured hat" and that is the end of it.

Socrates I very much appreciated the effort you put into the Twig Bird stories and indeed everything else you have contributed to this thread. I am sorry that my minuscule morsel of light hearted diversion has proved unwelcome. There may be no question that I have a lot to learn in regard to price action analysis, but I would prefer not to have my failings pointed out so perfuntorily on a public forum. I may be a reluctant, lazy and rude pupil, but teacher is no longer in the room and should not, IMHO, behave as if he were.

Mission Complete, Periscope Down, Ta Ta.

 

[china white]

QUOTE: "understanding manipulation of price in order to complete accumulation"

this is the best description of what is a common practice on ANY exchange, and what any City trader does every day. Me included. Once u see it, trust me trading is gonna be loads easier to u

I'll be honest with u - the reason why i managed to master dark science in relatively short time - is because that bit was very familiar to me from my City experience. IT IS KEY. Frugi mate, it may have been pointed out in a "friendlier" way but u have to admit the whipping made u think, go back to the posts mentioned and LEARN. Which is the most important bit. I was whipped many times on the floor when i was a jumiour trader, and TRUST ME, the wording was much worse, but I am eternally grateful to those lads because they knew the sh*t they were talking. And I was smart enuff not to let my ego make me go ballistic but to look again at what they said and LEARN.

matey forget abt the wording and study the issue. I've known u for a long time here on T2W and I know u r a very sharp lad who will crack the code in no time. We all need to be whipped from time to time not to get complacent. Me included.

On a separate note to Socrates - i am truly amazed how u can summarise a complicated issue in so few words.

 

[SOCRATES]

QUOTE: "understanding manipulation of price in order to complete accumulation"

this is the best description of what is a common practice on ANY exchange, and what any City trader does every day. Me included. Once u see it, trust me trading is gonna be loads easier to u

I'll be honest with u - the reason why i managed to master dark science in relatively short time - is because that bit was very familiar to me from my City experience. IT IS KEY. Frugi mate, it may have been pointed out in a "friendlier" way but u have to admit the whipping made u think, go back to the posts mentioned and LEARN. Which is the most important bit. I was whipped many times on the floor when i was a jumiour trader, and TRUST ME, the wording was much worse, but I am eternally grateful to those lads because they knew the sh*t they were talking. And I was smart enuff not to let my ego make me go ballistic but to look again at what they said and LEARN.

matey forget abt the wording and study the issue. I've known u for a long time here on T2W and I know u r a very sharp lad who will crack the code in no time. We all need to be whipped from time to time not to get complacent. Me included.

On a separate note to Socrates - i am truly amazed how u can summarise a complicated issue in so few words.

I respectfully suggest you also stop persisting in trying to make water run uphill.

 

[frugi]

A good whipping is indeed salutary , you're right China, and actually I deserved a far harsher one. Many cheers for your kind words of support. I can assure you I'm not "too cool for school", though as you can see I may have an ego issue or two to resolve within myself

I have since PM'd Socrates with an apology and have been generously forgiven, for which I am grateful.

Onwards and upwards...

 

[a320]

Yes I know its Epoptic....
Mr Bramble ??

Blake.....

 

[TheBramble]

Mr Bramble ??

Yes.

 

[TheBramble]

Now reflect on my comments on being kind to civilians in post no #

I cannot find it readily, but follow all my posts and if you find it you
will benefit greatly.

Post #826 - June 2 09:34

On the ineffable nature of true knowledge, resonance with others possessing the same and the heavy responsibility such knowledge confers on the holder.

Not to mention (which he did not directly) flexibility in using one's time.

But more importantly in relation to the post I quote of Socrates in his response to Frugi - Being Cruel to be Kind.

Make sense.

 

[barjon]

You obviously have difficulties coming to terms with understanding manipulation of price in order to complete accumulation.

mmm, but we have been looking at the ftse index on here recently. It is not directly traded so why should it be manipulated? Surely manipulation campaigns will be in the constituent, directly traded shares? The index may reflect the manipulation of its constituent shares but does it? For example a number of narrow range bars could merely represent the average of a series of fairly wide up movements in some consituents counteracted by fairly wide down movements in others?

 

[firehorse]

There may be no question that I have a lot to learn in regard to price action analysis, but I would prefer not to have my failings pointed out so perfuntorily on a public forum.

Isn't it better to have your failings pointed out (even perfunctorily) on a public forum - where you are effectively anonymous - than have them pointed out by the market by losing hard cash!?!

If you are 'hurt' by having your 'failings' pointed out on a bulletin board then I can only "assume" that you are also "hurt" when the market points out your "failings" on your trades when they lose money. (forgive me if my assumption is wrong! ).

Better for your ego to be bruised a little on forum then lose money on the market.
That makes logical sense.
But it may be difficult for you to achieve if you still have ego "issues" to deal with, which have nothing to do with the market or this forum.

Knowledge and power comes with a price ... one of them is the effort to acquire it. If the effort involves your ego being bruised a little then so be it. If you cannot get past that, or find help to get past that, then you may not be able to increase your success at trading and stay where you currently are .... getting hurt by 'remarks' on a forum and the market.

Better to be harsh now (perfunctorily even!) and win £££ (or $$$ ) off the market later

I may be a reluctant, lazy and rude pupil,

If you know this then why do you spend so much effort on this? If you have 'fun' being 'rude' and getting 'noticed' then that is 'boosting' your ego .... which stops you studying and seeing the market for what it is and being a better trader.

All I know is that I still have a heck of a lot to learn and would much prefer to have my ego bruised then to lose cash to the market!!!
--
Alan

 

[GirlPower]

I've been away for a week and it's taken me all morning to catch up with this thread.

What I can't understand is that with the exception of a very, very few, nobody seems to be getting it. Not really.

Or if they do, they're not letting on.

I'm way behind all of you in experience, but I can't believe there are so few who can or will post.

For a real newcomer like myself, I could do with all the help I can get.

There's a lot of meandering off into side issues and pop-art of Blake and Escher (which is nice), but it's completely lost on me in the context of trading. Lots of ego stuff which is boring and also in the context of trading, I would have thought quite dangerous. Some fairly flaky, airy-fairy stuff which would be OK on a New Age site, but not here.

Am I so clueless that these meanderings aren't making any sense as part of the overall picture, but should be, and are in fact vital in developing my trading skills?

There have been a number of posts by a few relating to what Socrates calls the 'mechanical' aspects of trading. These sort of make sense from a basic, trading point of view. And I find them quite useful, if worryingly simple. Worryingly in that if I find them simple, surely everyone else does and if so, why aren't they all already using them effectively?

And the lessons from Socrates which I'm trying really hard to master have taken me along many new avenues of research and introspection. These are clues to personal development of an extraordinary nature (if I'm reading them correctly) and appear to border on if not make deep incursions into what we currently feel are the comfortable boundaries of out existing and commonly held view of the human psyche and mind.

But in truly Socratic style, don't the students have equal responsibility to provide a basis for the teacher to teach?

This one thread has had over 1000 posts - over 50,000 views and apart from the few, the vast majority seem either unable or unwilling to put in the effort to sensibly contribute.

I know I stand the very real risk of being shot down for being new, inexperienced and perhaps a little cheeky in posting this. But if it's left up to the lowest in the t2w food-chain (me) to help in developing this thread to where it should be going, I think it's a real indictment of the more senior and experienced members and traders. Not to mention the fact that it will take an amoeba like me a million years trying to work things out alone.

Socrates has mentioned those on the sidelines or viewing from the balcony - please, come on into the discussion and help us all get to the highest level we can go.

 

[Trader333]

I have now (after several days of reading this entire thread) caught up to the end and I am prepared to put my money where my mouth is. So today I intend to take a trade based entirely on price and volume in a US stock of my choosing. I will post on here a few seconds after entry and when the trade is over (profit or loss), I will post the chart and explain my reasoning. I will then look forward to the intepretation by darksiders on their view as to what I did right or wrong and the reasons why.

I should point out that I do not normally trade on just price and volume but I will today including the size of market exposure.


Paul

 

[firehorse]

Responsibility to trade well !

SOCRATES ....

Thank you for your explanation.

Do I see?, yes I THINK that I see. That is, I understand the logic of your analysis.

What I perceive from your posts is that whatever the instrument in question is doing it is being manipulated by those with sufficient resources to do so. The object of this manipulation is to create a scenario which will entice others ( the herd ) to act in a particular way and thus enable the manipulators to profit from the changes caused by the herd.

This causes me to ponder some points:

1 My perception of the market was of people buying and selling on pure valuation. That appears to be naive in the extreme. From what you are saying the market is under continuous manipulation. I will not view the market the same again.

A comment from a naive person

So following on from the above ... the people who are 'manipulating' the market are 'employed' by the Big Financial Institution (BFI) who get the 'profits'/big money in the end. And what to they do with it? it either sits in their account(s) avoiding taxes or they use it to buy other BFI. (Correct me if I'm wrong). My conclusion is that the money goes out of the 'local' economy.

Whereas, if you win at trading, then you are 'taking' money away from the BFI, or at least stopping it from falling into their hands. (Don't worry about the rest of the herd losing money, they would have lost it quite capably without your help!!) And you will spend the money on food, clothes, holidays etc, all benefiting the local economy ... so it's all our responsibilty to trade as well as we can for the good of the economy

Anyone else able to offer an alternative viewpoint that the BFI are benevolent institutions!

 

[Rognvald]

Stolen from a knowledgeable price and volume trader elsewhere but worthy of publicising here for those who may not see it elsewhere:

"If we value the map more than the reality, we must not be surprised to find that the reality doesn't always fit the map.
In such a case, the reasonable man will change his map, not try to explain away the facts". -- John Magee

 

[bracke]

The Bramble

Thank you for finding the relevant post, namely 02-06-2004 09:34PM.

SOCRATES

I have read the post which I understand ( I think you must have added a large part of it after I had originally read it ) I fully appreciate your approach.

Regards

bracke

 

[firehorse]

There have been a number of posts by a few relating to what Socrates calls the 'mechanical' aspects of trading. These sort of make sense from a basic, trading point of view. And I find them quite useful, if worryingly simple. Worryingly in that if I find them simple, surely everyone else does and if so, why aren't they all already using them effectively?

Speak for yourself

I'm still going through the thread a second time busy making notes. I'm back at #238 looking at gap and trap bars. It makes sense when I read the explanation but come next morning I've forgotten it again!

Once I've gone through this thread a second time, I'll have to go through my notes again to really get to grips with it.

I think you may find the method simple because most traders usually use all sorts of 'indicators' to tell them when to buy or sell whereas this only uses the price and volume data. Then it is up to you to 'interpret' what is going on behind the scenes to decide when to buy or sell. You can't blame the indicator anymore because there isn't one and responsibility is entirely yours.

Maybe because your background is a writer (I took the liberty of checking your profile ), you can understand human motivations much better than a usual person and thus get to grips with the method much quicker.

If you read around a bit, most experienced traders say trading is 80% psychology and 20% method. So although the mechanical 'method' may appear to be simple to you (not to me yet!) that's only 20% of the way to making you into a successful trader. The other 80% is in you ... hence the numerous stories to get you to see things in a different light (I think I'm right there!)

 

[china white]

Unfortunately I am seeing some rather rude posts on this thread again..... Unfortunately because I enjoy this thread enormously and in all honesty think it is one of the best threads on our Forum.

Let me emphasise here my strong support for Socrates, Skim and other dark-siders who put their sterling effort into keeping this discussion highly professional. I wud be grateful to all if they cud contribute to keeping the thread that way in a professional (rather than rude) manner.