The Journey from the Basement

Status
Not open for further replies.
In fact at this juncture it is appropriate to add, that the best soldiers are those that are able to keep calm under fire, and not wobble and panic. There is a phrase in Elite Forces that epitomises this. When a situation is "hot" meaning there are rounds zipping around and nasty crumpling noises heard in very close proximity and there is a lot of danger, the following is apt to be heard "well , if you cannot enjoy a joke, you shouln't have joined, should you !?! " And this is the same. At the highest levels of what requires the same attitude, nothing changes.
Kind Regards,
 
Trader333 said:
Tony,

How can you be pre-instantaneous as this implies that you have done something before you can have done it ?
Exactly right Paul. And you know me well enough to know I wouldn't make a mistake of this nature.

I chose the term very precisely. It started off as plain old 'instantaneous'. But it didn't convey what I wanted. I hope this semi-explanation helps.


Trader333 said:
Maybe this attached image will help give the analogy to those who wish to develop a TP and the issues faced by the HP in so doing.
Don't know what to say Paul. It covers so much. I don't know where I couldn't use it. Thank you.
 
SOCRATES said:
In fact at this juncture it is appropriate to add, that the best soldiers are those that are able to keep calm under fire, and not wobble and panic. There is a phrase in Elite Forces that epitomises this. When a situation is "hot" meaning there are rounds zipping around and nasty crumpling noises heard in very close proximity and there is a lot of danger, the following is apt to be heard "well , if you cannot enjoy a joke, you shouln't have joined, should you !?! " And this is the same. At the highest levels of what requires the same attitude, nothing changes.
Kind Regards,

This is no more than a statement of the blindingly obvious. However, I think Trendie raises a valid pont here, and one I have tried to raise previously in the war-zone that is the T2W ego-boards!

If the market is constantly viewed as a battlefield, history tells us (and history should always be respected), that little ground will be gained for large numbers of casualties. However, many make ground, and substantial ground at that, for relatively small cost.

I met many ex-military in the City (strange that :LOL: ), and whilst good at mastering a brief, fine at staying firm "under fire", most didn't have a clue what to do next. It strikes me that the military training had armoured their HPs (to use your terms) even more than whence they started.

The point is surely that rather than creating an entirely new persona (TP?), we should try to understand and investigate our own persona (HP?) to a level than enables us to function in an efficient manner in all environments. Only then can we truly say we are successful, else, there is always a part of us that feels bereaved in some sense. And then the problems start!

In other words, we all have it within us (this contradicts what you said earlier). It is a matter of finding the route back, no less a task than your route out, indeed probably more painful in some ways.

IMHO
 
One more point, whilst Sox sleeps as it was such a hard day.

If you choose to develop a trading persona, that is in someway extraneous to yourself, you are building up a whole lot of trouble down the road IMHO.

The reason: as Bramble touched on earlier, these persona are designed to a degree that neither allows them to look back, nor look forward with any degree of emotion , they are and for ever more will be truly "in the moment". And whilst I agree that emotion is a dangerous tool in trading, it is what bonds the rest of our lives together, indeed makes us human. Therefore if you wish to follow this route, make sure all the rest of the bricks are in place, or be prepared to deny yourself them forever.
 
SOCRATES said:
..... Those who are disciplined and self governing succeed and those who are not fail. The batttle they face has nothing to do with unfolding events, but everything to do with themselves, how they view themselves at this, and how they handle themselves when they are in it.

What you discuss above involves qualities so far removed from what is conventional as to be practically alien, because in the first instance the individual has to have a complete and totally intimate grasp of what is a grand unified theorem of how it is that all of this fits together.

People are averse to doing the quantity and quality of work required to achieve this.

They will pretend to have the desire to do so, but, when faced with the cliff they have to climb that appears to disappear into cloud and has no apparent end, give up, because they do not perceive this to be necessary.

I SECOND EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THAT.

Ok forget about this discussion for a second. Let me ask u 2 very simple things:

1) sorry to say that but do u know the nasty feeling of your palms sweating when the trade goes against u and u boll*ck yorself u have to stay in it?

2) do u know this unbeatable desire to go foe a fag in the middle of your trade when it is against u hoping by the time u r finished u'll break even?

If u answer YES to any of those Qs - PLS do not be disgusted, do not be ashamed - this is what a HP is doing - and quite rightly.

TP on the other hand HANDLES the situation, not LIVES thru it as a HP wud do, sweating and swearing.... u c my point? :!:
 
china white said:
I SECOND EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THAT.

Ok forget about this discussion for a second. Let me ask u 2 very simple things:

1) sorry to say that but do u know the nasty feeling of your palms sweating when the trade goes against u and u boll*ck yorself u have to stay in it?

2) do u know this unbeatable desire to go foe a fag in the middle of your trade when it is against u hoping by the time u r finished u'll break even?

If u answer YES to any of those Qs - PLS do not be disgusted, do not be ashamed - this is what a HP is doing - and quite rightly.

TP on the other hand HANDLES the situation, not LIVES thru it as a HP wud do, sweating and swearing.... u c my point? :!:
China I will be brief because I have a commitment. You have nailed it whereas the majority cannot.
 
Jimbo 57, Hello I will be brief because I have a commitment. I have read your posts. Now consider and think very deeply about what I have explained above, and reflect that the HP will find any excuse to protect itself. The HP does not view the construction of a TP as necessary. It believes it can handle everything, which is wrong, sorry.
 
jimbo57,

This is not about changing your whole persona for every circumstance that you find yourself in and in any case we all have different roles for different aspects of our lives. For example, you will not act the same with your children as you do with your friends down the pub etc.

Taking the militaristic analogy: It is well known, and has been since armies were first formed, that if a soldier is allowed to think when in a battle situation they may well think what the hell am I doing I can easily get killed here. So what is done is to get the soldier to respond automatically and the way in which you do this is to get them to do enormous amounts of repetitive activities. Eventually they are at a point where a command is given and the response is carried out without thinking. Remember when you first learned to drive a car and the difficulty of having to think of everything you needed to do at once and how it was initially quite difficult ? How many experienced drivers now give any thought to when to change gear ? they dont because the response is automatic and there is no emotion or any other thought involved.

Now if you are able to apply the same analogy to trading and you have developed automatic response to trading then emotion does not come into it and if the market reacts in one way then you react in another. If you get an information shock, then this would be like needing to do an emergency stop in driving, as long as you have the automatic response to it you just do what is necessary and you will be OK.

I dont see how developing this approach will cause problems in other areas of life unless it were to take it over and I have yet to hear of a situation where it has.


Paul
 
china white said:
I SECOND EVERY SINGLE WORD OF THAT.

Ok forget about this discussion for a second. Let me ask u 2 very simple things:

1) sorry to say that but do u know the nasty feeling of your palms sweating when the trade goes against u and u boll*ck yorself u have to stay in it?

2) do u know this unbeatable desire to go foe a fag in the middle of your trade when it is against u hoping by the time u r finished u'll break even?

If u answer YES to any of those Qs - PLS do not be disgusted, do not be ashamed - this is what a HP is doing - and quite rightly.

TP on the other hand HANDLES the situation, not LIVES thru it as a HP wud do, sweating and swearing.... u c my point? :!:

Very well described and if anyone reading the above has not experienced it I think that they are not being honest with themselves but.......... When we gain more experience and knowledge we ( if we have any sense ) apply rules to our trading to prevent the above scenario occuring.
We apply mental and/or physical stops and exit points and these are determined before we enter the trade and in my own case written down and once hit - finish. No ifs, ands, buts, or maybes - finish.

I don't think what I have described above is TP, it is more E (Enlightened)HP. HP has been bitten more than once and he dosen't like it so he seeks ways of preventing re-occurance, I suppose he is armouring himself.

SOCRATES I need your help to state the differences between EHP and TP please.

Regards

bracke
 
Glenn

Thank you for the link. It explains very well the HP that SOCRATES has been discussing and reinforces the need to develop the TP.

SOCRATES, is Pablo Montenegro your pseudonym ?

Regards

bracke
 
bracke said:
Very well described and if anyone reading the above has not experienced it I think that they are not being honest with themselves but.......... When we gain more experience and knowledge we ( if we have any sense ) apply rules to our trading to prevent the above scenario occuring.
We apply mental and/or physical stops and exit points and these are determined before we enter the trade and in my own case written down and once hit - finish. No ifs, ands, buts, or maybes - finish.

I don't think what I have described above is TP, it is more E (Enlightened)HP. HP has been bitten more than once and he dosen't like it so he seeks ways of preventing re-occurance, I suppose he is armouring himself.

SOCRATES I need your help to state the differences between EHP and TP please.

Hello Bracke, what you are doing is forcing the HP to conform to a series of rules you have set, for mechanical execution. By this I mean placing stops and not wavering from them or removing them altogether but accepting if they are hit so be it, This is much more already than many traders can do. They set a stop, then see the trade going marginally against them and then decide to alter the stop. This is important to note, because at this stage the HP is finding an excuse to do so. Why is this ? Simple the HP considers itself to be right . It is right .It has been succesful in preserving life, your life. That is why you are alive and not dead.

Built into this mechanism is also an emotional factor. The HP does not like to be thwarted, contradicted, but not in terms of what is tangible thwarting or contradiction. It is much more subtle than that. What it does not want is its Authority removed. It therefore seeks the weak point in the whole sequence in order to preserve its authority. It sees an opportunity when an opinion appears. The opinion has an emotion attached to it. As we know the emotion has the ability to disable reason. The opinion causes the trader to alter or remove the stop. Additionally, the original intent of the TP is now thwarted and also the TP mode is shut down.

The trader is now left to struggle with emotions, totally disabled. He is unaware that his ability to act is disabled. He can see that what is developing is wrong. But he freezes. He is frozen because the TP is out of action, because the HP has slammed the gate shut on it, as this is another spring loaded booby trap that finalises the sequence of sabotage the HP carries out.

In order to return to trading mode the TP has to be recalled. It is too late. The level of emotion is so great that the trader is completely disempowered from acting according to his reason,or from logically deducing. The TP remains disabled. As the HP's role is to preserve life, when the "pain" becomes very great, unbearable the HP now consents, and allows the trader to take steps to stop the pain. The trader exits, in a terrible emotional state, and it may take a few hours or even days for him to cool down. This is because all the HP trapdoors are not completely shut. Once they are completely shut, the trader is calm again and reflects on the stupidity that he does again and again.

The HP is so clever, and has so many mechanisms in place to preserve life, that in addition it does everything it can to prevent the trader from even being able to benefit from what the HP allows him to view as "errors", which are not errors at all but the consequence of being a prisoner.

Thus what you do is remarkable, excellent. Never cbange your policy. Do not change the way you operate stops, because this is exactly what the HP wants you to, even against your own best judgement.

An EHP we call an enhanced human persona, denoting an individual whose level of awareness is above average. I will add that EHP has nothing to do with book learning or qualifications, but everything to do with self determination and the excercise of will, th will to progress that is.

And no, Pablo Montenegro is not my psydonym, sorry.
 
Hi Sox,

Maybe I didn't spot it, but you didn't seem to comment on the example I gave of the possible reactions of the HP and the TP in the BP trade scenario. Could you let me know if my understanding is right or wrong?

Thanks,

Alex
 
AlexAndrews said:
bracke, here's an example to illustrate what I was trying to describe.

Consider the 6-month chart for BP (LSE:BP.): this shows a well-defined consolidation in the 480-500p range. Classical T.A. suggests (to the best of my knowledge, anyway) that, on breaking out of this range, the share price will move - either up or down - by the size of the consolidation range, in this case 20p. Anyway, regardless of whether or not you subscribe to this analysis, assume for the moment that you do, and, on breaking through the 500p level on 03/08/2004 you went long on BP. Now, let's look at how the HP and the TP might react when the price reaches 520p, the target price already identified:
  • HP On reaching 520p, you say to yourself "OK, it has reached the target price, but it's still cheap, especially when you consider that the price of crude is setting all-time highs - the company is going to make huge profits! Others are going to realize this, so I think the price is going to go much higher. I'll hang on to my long position for the moment - I'm well in profit, anyway." The price does rise a little further, but then the momentum fades and it retraces all of its gain (and more). Having formed the opinion that the share price is going much higher, you hang on and watch as it drops right back down to the level at which you bought the shares.
  • TP On reaching 520p, you say to yourself "OK, it has reached the target price, I'm selling." You close your long position and watch what happens from the side-lines as the price continues to rise a little higher, but then retraces. (Better traders than me might have set a mental stop at 520p and continued riding the price rise, moving the stop up behind it.)
I think the above reflects fairly accurately how I would have reacted if I had gone long on BP from the break of 500p, and this is what I understand Socrates to mean by needing to be able to differente between employing the HP and the TP when applying trading skills.

Alex
OK Alex, here is how all this typically works. I say typically because the degree of disablement of response by using the HP is proportional to the level of emotion.
The level of emotion is proportional to the amount of stimulation that the HP, in its role of life protector induces in order for it to get the upper hand and wrest control from the TP.
What you use as an example in HP is correctly laid out. This is because the HP intervenes and interferes with the application of a decision. A decision and the ability to execute is the result of correct deduction. Correct deduction is the result of the application of reasoning and logic. Therefore if we short circuit this, the ability to act depends upon a decision which is the result of the application of reason. Reason and logical deduction go hand in hand.The HP is not equipped to deal with this efficiently, because there is risk that included in the excercise that the HP carries out in its view to preserve life, to reinforce this conviction it calls upon emotion to play a hand. Emotion, when summoned has the effect of disabling the ability to act as a direct consequence of disempowering logical deduction and reasoning, and also the gate is shut. OK, so your description of what the HP is likely to do is correct for the reasons in detail, I describe above.

In contradistinction to the above, the TP is not hampered by any of this, is able to logically deduce and reason and act accordingly. The TP will coldly calculate the price is going to go up, and is likely to go to 520 or more. The TP will decide in advance to get out the moment 520 is hit, regardless of momentum, but in addition, because the TP is not hampered by emotions (fear, greed, hope, uncertainty, impatience) it is able to logically deduce, that if that is the case, the best place to go long is at the bottom of the range and not at the top. Because the TP is not subject to for example impatience+ uncertainty(because there are variations of disabling combinations) it is able to wait until the price drops to the support level and then act seamlessly, by going long from the bottom, as a strong holder instead of a weak holder, with the potential to take the whole of the potential move instead of just part of it. This is where the TP scores again over the HP. In addition the TP remains in a cooled state and has no emotion. The possibility of "having another go" because of exitement, hope, greed, pride and so on is not possible either. The TP walks away with the prize intact, and is able to keep it.
 
Trader333 said:
I dont see how developing this approach will cause problems in other areas of life unless it were to take it over and I have yet to hear of a situation where it has.

Paul
Hello Paul, the problem in dealing with the information shocks delevered in trading is the reverse. The TP does not impinge upon other areas of life, because it is not motivated or catalysed to do so. The HP , however is specifically built to intervene in any situation, whether tangible or intangible, mental, physical or whatever in which it detects the slightest clue whether correct or not , whether justified or not, that there is or might be a threat to life, whether real or imagined. Therefore, the HP is designed to attack the TP and effectively shut it down when it takes over and not the other way round, you see the problem ?
 
By the way everything explained above is not some silly theory, it is the way it is. If you are capable of putting your attention on it without wavering, you will find it all to be correct. None of this is presented to stimulate arguing amonst members, it is presented in a way everyone can understand with the intention of outlining some of the dificulties involved in the psychological element of trading, and to encourage an increase of awareness of unforseen dangers. These dangers are very real, and have to be dealt with correctly. I make no apologies for the brutality of approach. You are entitlled to have the facts, and if this upsets anyone who writes silly books on this topic, so be it. All of this can stand up to the most severe and detailed criticism, but it is the truth, so there you have it.
 
bracke said:
SOCRATES, is Pablo Montenegro your pseudonym ?

easy tiger that was myex-wife's brother's name, well part of it :LOL: I talked to him last night he swore on the Bible he is not Socrates :LOL:
 
bracke said:
I don't think what I have described above is TP, it is more E (Enlightened)HP. HP has been bitten more than once and he dosen't like it so he seeks ways of preventing re-occurance, I suppose he is armouring himself.

matey i am sorry to constantly bring in analogies from fields unrelated to trading, but this has definitely caught my eye. The most Enlightened persona of the 18th century was Voltaire who learnt how to protect himself against his French "peers". Still he fell for Catherine II - who with all her merits WAS the biggest tyrant of that time - much bigger than the corrupt Louis whom Voltaire knew too well.......

EHP is of course loads better than HP in many ways (not all of them though). It is still a HP though. Think of an Enlightened Pedestrian who knows where the valves are in the engine and what a horsepower means - he is still a pedestrian, not a motorist :LOL:
 
Sox, if you have time, could we have another animal allegory? I find them quite fun and very thought-provoking. Thanks - Alex
 
Ok, alright, hands up those of you who would like another Animal Lesson........
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top