The Journey from the Basement

[Finirama]

This is my interpretation -

- Fix your attention to see what is not there: ’But as she was so insistent, I fixed my attention on it and sure enough,
she was right’
- Be able to change your perspective by taking different angles – ‘decided to approach from a different angle’
- The need for context – ‘we could not make out what it was because the background was not clear’
- You might lose your perspective by focusing into close -' When we got really close, there was
nothing there'
You gain true perspective by adopting the correct use of time and adopting the right angle – the second time they got close they ‘crouched, and remained very still and quiet’ so that ‘the mystery was unravelled.’

The way in which the hill is described in more and more detail perhaps gives a practical suggestion on how to start to gain perspective, i.e. get the big picture first before you focus on the finer detail. When doing this, one must aware that some things can just appear and disappear, depending on what sort of time is being used...... so an example on MMs can manipulate volume by the use of time so as to mask the true intent, hence the six different types of volume.

The above is why one must be open - minded so as to expect the unexpected – ‘What we had been looking at was not what we expected.’

With regards to the hedgehogs, perhaps this is a lesson in crowd forming. I note that the 3 big ones happen to be the ‘older ones’ that are only ‘showing’ the 7 little ones the trick. The little ones are not actually participating. I assume, as a matter of time, that will only do so when they learn how to. To me this suggests the MMs creating a move, i.e. once the little ones have finally learnt, they will follow in the steps of the big ones, thus the Big Ones mission is complete. Not sure about the significance of 7 though.

 

[SOCRATES]

When doing this, one must aware that some things can just appear and disappear, depending on what sort of time is being used......

Yes, this as well Finny, but what I am trying to bring to your awareness for you to have a realisation is that "It is YOUR perspective you must not allow to be played about with by the
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
events as they unfold, otherwise you begin to see in a chart what you wnat to see and NOT
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
WHAT IS. This is the difference between a trader who knows his profession and one who
'''''''''''''''''''''''
guesses".


The use of time in this context is a mechanical requirement and is overruled by
the requirement to sustain impartiality.

The one who is master of his profession is master because he has mastered it.
In adddition he has been able to master himself.
In addition he has done this being in it and not at it,
In addition he has accepted and learnt.

As a consequence of this he has succeeded in changing himself,
(for the purpose of trading only)
And is therefore able to replicate the correct response at any time
anywhere
in any market
in any instrument
from any location
anywhere in the world
at any time

on command ~ at will.

I will be making more observations on all your comments as we go along with this.
All of these comments are constructive and are given for your benefit to help you
raise your standards of awareness, which is what you need in order that you may make progress. This is not teaching,. Teaching is something different. You do not need to
be taught, but you do need to be brought higher in order to improve and ultimately
perfect your responses. And Fordy, do you get my drift ?

Now continue , just carry on.......

 

[SOCRATES]

Special message for Max 22.

Do you now see how a very special mindset has to be developed to enable you to spot what everybody else misses ? This is a very important key skill you need to develop in your trading.
If you become contaminated by the herd you will adopt a herd perspective.
To be contaminated by the perspective of the herd is extremely easy, not only because it is mainstream,
but because in every other activity in life sharing is often the best way, except in this.
That is why there are barely 30 darksiders in a membership now at 15000 plus.
You stay here with us and don't drift off in search of nonsense elsewhere, is my advice to you. OK ?

 

[Glenn]

You and your girlfriend had a purpose and a plan for the day.
This was interrupted by something unusual which you did not understand at first.
You became curious. e.g. Was it a threat of some kind ? It did not fit with your prior knowledge of the world about you.
It distracted you from your purpose.
Your initial attempt to unravel the mstery failed. You therefore decided to approach it from another angle.
In the event it turned out to be of no consequence to your activities - but you had learnt something new by being patient and taking the time to observe carefully and unnoticed.
You were distracted, but on this occasion the experience was pleasant enough and no harm had come to anyone. And you had learnt something new.

The hedgehog parents were teaching defensive skills to their offspring by using a game and repetition to get the message home.
If they roll into a ball they can move quickly (provided they are on a slope) and at the same time be protected. What fun !
This may confuse and shake off a predator.
The hedgehogs are carrying out this activity unaware of the effect it is having on observers.
Perhaps there are people in the markets who from time to time carry out harmless 'training' trades in order to demonstrate to others what happens - and repetition is a good way to do this.

There are times in the markets when things happen which confuse the onlooker. Sometimes they are threats under development. Sometimes they are of no consequence. But until you take the time to carefully examine the detail from more than one angle, you will not understand what you see.
And even if it is of no consequence, you will still not be able to ignore it the next time you see it.

Glenn

 

[SOCRATES]

:idea: ah! come the dawn

From within the herd I looked but I did not see, even invented a few spurious facts to support pre-conceived notions. Why? Not shifted my perspective or way of thinking that's why, only kidded myself I was.

Are you now beginning to see how there are lots of traps to ensnare the unwary ?
Your success depends upon the quality of your thinking
You have to put effort into the way you think and from what angle you direct it,
one wrong turn, and you've had it. If it were not so dire it would be trivial.

 

[SOCRATES]

You and your girlfriend had a purpose and a plan for the day.
This was interrupted by something unusual which you did not understand at first.
You became curious. e.g. Was it a threat of some kind ? It did not fit with your prior knowledge of the world about you.
It distracted you from your purpose.
Your initial attempt to unravel the mstery failed. You therefore decided to approach it from another angle.
In the event it turned out to be of no consequence to your activities - but you had learnt something new by being patient and taking the time to observe carefully and unnoticed.
You were distracted, but on this occasion the experience was pleasant enough and no harm had come to anyone. And you had learnt something new.

The hedgehog parents were teaching defensive skills to their offspring by using a game and repetition to get the message home.
If they roll into a ball they can move quickly (provided they are on a slope) and at the same time be protected. What fun !
This may confuse and shake off a predator.
The hedgehogs are carrying out this activity unaware of the effect it is having on observers.
Perhaps there are people in the markets who from time to time carry out harmless 'training' trades in order to demonstrate to others what happens - and repetition is a good way to do this.

There are times in the markets when things happen which confuse the onlooker. Sometimes they are threats under development. Sometimes they are of no consequence. But until you take the time to carefully examine the detail from more than one angle, you will not understand what you see.
And even if it is of no consequence, you will still not be able to ignore it the next time you see it.

Glenn

That's right, Glenn and in addition when repetition occurs it is not by chance.
These are the same people doing the same stunts as part of a strategy.
As the strategy works for them, therefore they repeat it, but in a way that
serves to baffle everyone, because the repetition is not identcal but similar.
In other words, it is a repetition within a family of repetitions.
This is why it is so important to view it from diffferent angles and to clock it.
Its significance may reveal itself to you later.
If you clock it and you store it this is the process of acquiring experience.
If you do not strive to raise your awareness you will never succeed in clocking
anything. This is a disaster. The great majority use indicators in the hope that
these will do the clocking for them and then moan loudly if and when they fail.

 

[Rognvald]

"it is a repetition within a family of repetitions.
This is why it is so important to view it from diffferent angles and to clock it."

Forgive me for going off on a musical allusion here but the actions of the hedgehogs in their quest for food is like the variations on a theme (motif) in a Bach fugue - it constitutes what is known as "motivic development and saturation" Such motives had the potential to be transformed into new ideas (development) and therefore permeate the entire composition (saturation)

However on the hill the focus was on a single theme - in this case the profit motive (Ha Ha Ha).Anything available would be eaten - and in any way possible using any variation (tuneful or otherwise)

If the Bach fugue idea is foreign to you then you might also like to think of something at the other end of the scale. Some may remember that 1970's phenomenon ABBA. You may remember "Take a chance on me" and its complex and intermeshing changing rhythms and melodies.

 

[ford]

Alright, for this Animal lesson I have made myself go through the entire text and sequences of events, writing it out on paper and then going through each development, visualising it in my mind, looking at what is happening and then questioning what the observers and actors are doing and why. And then constraining my answer to the question based the events of this text alone.

So to skip the background to the story, we find these two people having a picnic in a field when something happening on a small grass hill grab's the attention of the female. The male look's at the hill after the female point's in it's direction, insisting something is happening, but he fail's to see what the female see's - Why? Why is it that two human's both faced with the same event unfolding in front of them see two totally different thing's? Further, why did the female have her attention diverted by this event on the hill but not the male, and why did he not see the event even when he intentionally looked in the direction of the hill after being told to? The answer I come to is that the girl is far more visually aware than the male, which may have something to do with the fact that she works in television.

The female persisted, certain something was there and so the male continued to look, fixing his attention on the hill, he finally see's what she does. -- Does this suggest his attention was not on it before, perhaps not as much and as intensely as the females? Perhaps this is why he did not see what she did to begin with. It seems to me that the male had to really look to see what was happening, where as for the female, it was almost natural to see something in such a detailed manner.

So it is now established that both see what is occuring on the hill, but they are uncertain of what exactly is going on, because of the background. This mystery has provoked curiosity, which warrants the two venturing up the hill to truly see what is going on. They both know that if they wish to know more they are going to have to go beyond sitting 100 yards away and go to the scene of the event. This will require more effort than simply sitting.

They both venture up the hill, but not haphazardly, there appears an element of intuitive street smarts or common sense that says do not go running up, but approach with caution, which they do. They venture up the hill slowly and quietly, like mice. Is this the human element at work? I would say so, it makes sense that people would be timid and passive when venturing to an unknown place.

The two finally reach their destination, but to their disapointment, I'm sure, they see nothing. Why? Why have the Hedgehogs submerged. This I suggest is their animal instinct. Two foreign beings have approached and disrupted their little community, it is not surprising that their intuitive reaction would be to hide from an unknown thing.

The two return to their picnic spot and after a few minutes pass, the objects begin to appear and disapear just as before. Why? The hedgehogs have waited for the potential foreign threat to disapear, so they can return to their business.

No doubt the two humans have identified that the objects are smart, but so are the humans. They decide to return, just as before, but this time they approach from a different angle. Sure enough when they get there the objects have disapeared, but the two this time are not surprised. This time they crouch and wait, realising that they saw nothing because they were impatient the last time around.

The objects, being the simple creatures that they are, return to the surface, thinking that the noise and disruption of the two humans has passed, but they are mistake, they have been tricked into a false sense of security and have come to accept the presence of the humans, even though they don't realise they are there.

And so the mystery unfolds and the two are finally able to see what these objects were and what they were doing. The three adult hedgehogs are demonstrating to the 7 younger ones how to use the gifts that nature gave them, which is to roll up in a tight little ball and roll from place to place.

So this leads to question #1. Why are the adult hedgehogs showing the 7 younger hedgehogs this neat little trick?

Because they came into this world not knowing, and knowledge is for the most part passed on to people through others who already know what they're doing.

And question #2, what does this story and the actions and emotions of the people and actors in it have to do with those of the darkside of trading?

The main theme of this story to me appears to be one of two types of person. One who is capable and the other who is not, yet the one who is not capable posses the capability to do what the more capable one does, because they have been given it through nature. It's merely a matter of harnessing that skill, in the case of the human, which is seeing something and in the case of the hedgehog, it is rolling into a tight little ball and speeding down a hill.

Both the male and younger hedgehogs have had their faculties enhanced by being directed by the more experienced.

 

[Rognvald]

Ford
we are into the nature or nurture discussion too. Pavlov and his dogs, the she wolf and the twins Romulus and Remus. Can nature conquer over nurture. Can a person by nurture become a darkside trader or is this only avaialble in those few "born" to it??

OK I'm signing off for the night now - I want my tea and TV (well DVD):cheesy:

 

[SOCRATES]

Alright, for this Animal lesson I have made myself go through the entire text and sequences of events, writing it out on paper and then going through each development, visualising it in my mind, looking at what is happening and then questioning what the observers and actors are doing and why. And then constraining my answer to the question based the events of this text alone.

So to skip the background to the story, we find these two people having a picnic in a field when something happening on a small grass hill grab's the attention of the female. The male look's at the hill after the female point's in it's direction, insisting something is happening, but he fail's to see what the female see's - Why? Why is it that two human's both faced with the same event unfolding in front of them see two totally different thing's? Further, why did the female have her attention diverted by this event on the hill but not the male, and why did he not see the event even when he intentionally looked in the direction of the hill after being told to? The answer I come to is that the girl is far more visually aware than the male, which may have something to do with the fact that she works in television.

The female persisted, certain something was there and so the male continued to look, fixing his attention on the hill, he finally see's what she does. -- Does this suggest his attention was not on it before, perhaps not as much and as intensely as the females? Perhaps this is why he did not see what she did to begin with. It seems to me that the male had to really look to see what was happening, where as for the female, it was almost natural to see something in such a detailed manner.

So it is now established that both see what is occuring on the hill, but they are uncertain of what exactly is going on, because of the background. This mystery has provoked curiosity, which warrants the two venturing up the hill to truly see what is going on. They both know that if they wish to know more they are going to have to go beyond sitting 100 yards away and go to the scene of the event. This will require more effort than simply sitting.

They both venture up the hill, but not haphazardly, there appears an element of intuitive street smarts or common sense that says do not go running up, but approach with caution, which they do. They venture up the hill slowly and quietly, like mice. Is this the human element at work? I would say so, it makes sense that people would be timid and passive when venturing to an unknown place.

The two finally reach their destination, but to their disapointment, I'm sure, they see nothing. Why? Why have the Hedgehogs submerged. This I suggest is their animal instinct. Two foreign beings have approached and disrupted their little community, it is not surprising that their intuitive reaction would be to hide from an unknown thing.

The two return to their picnic spot and after a few minutes pass, the objects begin to appear and disapear just as before. Why? The hedgehogs have waited for the potential foreign threat to disapear, so they can return to their business.

No doubt the two humans have identified that the objects are smart, but so are the humans. They decide to return, just as before, but this time they approach from a different angle. Sure enough when they get there the objects have disapeared, but the two this time are not surprised. This time they crouch and wait, realising that they saw nothing because they were impatient the last time around.

The objects, being the simple creatures that they are, return to the surface, thinking that the noise and disruption of the two humans has passed, but they are mistake, they have been tricked into a false sense of security and have come to accept the presence of the humans, even though they don't realise they are there.

And so the mystery unfolds and the two are finally able to see what these objects were and what they were doing. The three adult hedgehogs are demonstrating to the 7 younger ones how to use the gifts that nature gave them, which is to roll up in a tight little ball and roll from place to place.

So this leads to question #1. Why are the adult hedgehogs showing the 7 younger hedgehogs this neat little trick?

Because they came into this world not knowing, and knowledge is for the most part passed on to people through others who already know what they're doing.

And question #2, what does this story and the actions and emotions of the people and actors in it have to do with those of the darkside of trading?

The main theme of this story to me appears to be one of two types of person. One who is capable and the other who is not, yet the one who is not capable posses the capability to do what the more capable one does, because they have been given it through nature. It's merely a matter of harnessing that skill, in the case of the human, which is seeing something and in the case of the hedgehog, it is rolling into a tight little ball and speeding down a hill.

Both the male and younger hedgehogs have had their faculties enhanced by being directed by the more experienced.

Fordy, everything you detail above is perfect, however there is one more lesson iinside
this Animal Lesson, now try your best by looking to try to have a realisation.

 

[Rognvald]

The girlfriend's TV programme was for children and perhaps thats why she could see what the young Socrates could not - children do not have any preconceptions about what is possible and what is not? Girlfriend was accustomed to looking at things as children do and so she saw rather than looked. She saw because she had been trained to adopt the persona of the child. She saw what was actually there rather than what her mind told her could/could not be there

 

[TheBramble]

If the Bach fugue idea is foreign to you then you might also like to think of something at the other end of the scale. .

Ron, I can't believe you thought you'd get away with that...

Some may remember that 1970's phenomenon ABBA. You may remember "Take a chance on me" and its complex and intermeshing changing rhythms and melodies.

It's the first time I've ever seen "ABBA" and "Complex" in the same sentence. Ron, I know these Animal Lessons are a personal journey for us all, but I'm really having a tough time reconciling Hedgehogs, Bach and ABBA.

This is in no way a denigration of what you're about or anything other than total support for your personal quest, but I for one, need a little more of a bridge if I've got any hope of understanding where you're headed.

 

[TheBramble]

The answer I come to is that the girl is far more visually aware than the male, which may have something to do with the fact that she works in television.

Not anything to do with the story, nor necessarily her profession Ford, but from a physiological point of fact, females do have the edge in day vision over males.

The Retina at the back of the eyeball has 130 million rod shaped photo-receptors to deal with black-and-white and 7 million cone shaped cells to handle colour. The X-chromosome provides the colour cells. Women have two X-chromosomes to the male's one. Which is why females are able to distinguish and describe a greater variety and range of colour than males.

Plus, females have far greater peripheral vision than males - effective to almost 180 degrees. Which means they are far better adapted to picking up movement.

Of course, female Rabbits are a different kettle of fish....

 

[Max22]

Special message for Max 22.

Do you now see how a very special mindset has to be developed to enable you to spot what everybody else misses ? This is a very important key skill you need to develop in your trading.
If you become contaminated by the herd you will adopt a herd perspective.
To be contaminated by the perspective of the herd is extremely easy, not only because it is mainstream,
but because in every other activity in life sharing is often the best way, except in this.
That is why there are barely 30 darksiders in a membership now at 15000 plus.
You stay here with us and don't drift off in search of nonsense elsewhere, is my advice to you. OK ?

Thank you for the advice and guidance Socrates. I would like to let you know that since coming on to this thread, i have stopped using all indicators i had bought in the past, indicators i was leasing, and indicators I was evaluating (None of which have ever worked for me personally anyway, not to say they don't work for other people). Essentially I have stopped trading all together, since trading with pure price and volume is something very new to me and I have no idea of the mechanics of the subject. I am hoping you will teach me something of the mechanics, but I am in no hurry and understant that first thing first. So For now I am only trying to achieve the right mindset and the right prespective, by following this thread, before I actually put on another live trade. Don't know how long that will take , but I think that I'll know when I know. Thank you again for your guidance.

 

[MikeW]

Animal Lesson No.7

Looking at the hill (the market) without sufficient intent & being focused you can't see what's happening (price action). But even when focused & you begin to 'see' you still can't interpret the 'events' - you need to change your perspective/refocus from the 'inside' ,on the events you've now perceived. By way of a slight analogy - have you stared at the stereoscopic/random dot images, these are at 1st glance just a random set of different coloured dots, but with a different technique of viewing them a 3d image appears as if by magic - the brain/unconcious processer see the images that someone deliberately staring at the 'picture' never will - much to their frustration. Once you've got the technique you can then view the 3d image almost instantly & look around within it to 'see' all the elements that upon 1st glance you couldn't take in.

If only the market price/action technique was as easy to master as the 3d stereogram technique. :cheesy:

Cheers.
MikeW

 

[SOCRATES]

But it is obvious that you actually achieve perceiving things by deliberately not staring at them, not only as a consequence of visual input but also subconscious input when attempting the particular excercise you describe.
But the great majority of people cannot willfully put themselves into another dimension.
I do not see all of this as difficult. I find it very frustrating when others are not able to percieve what is obvious. Either I am wired differently or everybody else is.

They cannot change their perspectives because they consider the price(changing themselves) to be too high or not necessary. It is very annoying that otherwise very intelligent people cannot do it.

And they persist in using thought processes that work for everything else but not for this profession.The polite and intelligent ones work at it. The dunces, I had better not start...

Referring to the first 3 lines above, by the way, I walked into a bar in Fuengirola in which the bartender had a framed picture on the wall, I said to him, Who else can see the elephants ? Christ ! He said, spilling his drink, it's been there three years and you are the first person to see them ! Here, have a drink.......anything you like. "No thanks, I do not drink alcohol, but I will accept a lemonade", and I did.

The price/action technique is a doddle - it is the mind element that people cannot crack.
They have to crack the mind element first, either they believe they do not need to do it, or they cannot do it or they dont try to do it or they cannot do it. I dont know why. This is why I am so persistent and inquisitive about this

 

[SOCRATES]

For example, let us take the Animal Lessons. Here we have an audience of !5, 800 people.
These people are not ordinary people in the sense that for them to subscribe to this website
their interest has to be a specific interest. Not everybody is interested in trading and so on.

My wife yawns with boredom at the thought. She cannot understand why a group of individuals
meet here regularly here with me and talk an arcane language she does not understand and is not
interested in. I have tried to teach her, so that at least at dinner parties she can keep up with what is
being discussed among real experts that anyone else would give their right arm to experience.

No, she is not interested, but then in the middle of something really stratospheric tries to make a
comment which is totally off topic and not relevant. That s all right, because I understand she is making
an effort to be polite and show interest in what our dinner guests and I are discussing.

However, the membership of this website is different altogether. These people would not subscribe
if they were not interested at all, yet no one is deeply able to recognise the significance of these
Animal Lessons. The Animal Lessons are viewed as allegories. The audience misses the true
meaning of them as trading examples, by either taking them literally or by seeking hidden meaning in
symbolism.

When I walk by the sea and I see the waves I look at them through the eyes of a trader. If I see a
fountain the same again. I take every opportunity to nourish my awareness in order to increase
my understanding of the markets and of myself. I find ordinary people are not driven in this way
and I do not understand why. It puzzles me that an attentive audience is not able to stimulate itself
to have the realisations they so badly need in order to progress, with very very few exceptions.

 

[TheBramble]

[...] yet no one is deeply able to recognise the significance of these
Animal Lessons. The Animal Lessons are viewed as allegories. The audience misses the true meaning of them as trading examples, by either taking them literally or by seeking hidden meaning in symbolism..

Socrates, the difference between literalism and symbolism is personal perception - which is based upon experience, education and intellect?

The 'true' meaning, if not as each individual's personal interpretation of it, but as an identifiable, objective and definable aspect of reality MUST be something that all those (few?) who REALLY know can describe and explain quite easily.

So is the purpose of this extended education using Animal Lessons is to develop the correct character or to determine those who already posses (even if only in embryonic form) the correct character?

 

[TheBramble]

I walked into a bar in Fuengirola in which the bartender had a framed picture on the wall, I said to him, Who else can see the elephants ?

But what was it that made you think so few would have seen them?

 

[Rognvald]

But it is obvious that you actually achieve perceiving things by deliberately not staring at them, not only as a consequence of visual input but also subconscious input when attempting the particular excercise you describe.
But the great majority of people cannot willfully put themselves into another dimension.
I do not see all of this as difficult. I find it very frustrating when others are not able to percieve what is obvious. Either I am wired differently or everybody else is.

They cannot change their perspectives because they consider the price(changing themselves) to be too high or not necessary. It is very annoying that otherwise very intelligent people cannot do it.

And they persist in using thought processes that work for everything else but not for this profession.The polite and intelligent ones work at it. The dunces, I had better not start...

Referring to the first 3 lines above, by the way, I walked into a bar in Fuengirola in which the bartender had a framed picture on the wall, I said to him, Who else can see the elephants ? Christ ! He said, spilling his drink, it's been there three years and you are the first person to see them ! Here, have a drink.......anything you like. "No thanks, I do not drink alcohol, but I will accept a lemonade", and I did.

The price/action technique is a doddle - it is the mind element that people cannot crack.
They have to crack the mind element first, either they believe they do not need to do it, or they cannot do it or they dont try to do it or they cannot do it. I dont know why. This is why I am so persistent and inquisitive about this

Socrates

The people who are working at this are intelligent. They recognise the need to change and are prepared to try hard to put themselves into another dimension. Some of them have spent very long hours trying to put themselves where you clearly already are. They see that it is worth the effort. You have spent a lifetime perfecting this skill and refining this vision. You see it in nearly everything about you – the tides, a fountain, a picture in a bar. We are coming to it after weeks. It annoys us too. No one has appeared with the solution although some of us may be skirting the edges of it.Your dinner party guests appear to have the vision too.

You naturally find our incomprehension or inability very annoying and frustrating. The small group of us who are actually contributing here are putting themselves on the line in public and are at least trying. We are (as you said somwhere) throwing our darts but don’t know what to aim them at. There are a large number of watchers on the site who have not contributed anything. Perhaps the contributors are the only ones who don’t know?

Why is it that a large number of watchers are not sufficiently interested to contribute but find the watching compelling? Either they know what you know and do not wish to share or they desperately wish they knew and are waiting for someone else to do the work for them.

Whatever the outcome the contributors have at least tried to see what it is they need to learn and have demonstrated that they have tried to improve themselves. I for one will continue to do so for as long as you have patience to stimulate me.