Best Thread Support & Resistance Explained

re: Support & Resistance Explained

I'm trying to get my brain around this comment. Speculation is the art of buying cheaply with the buyers wisdom and experience that the market will rise---or the reverse---. Why would Footsie not be a speculators market, but Forex yes?

I think that we need to go back to the basics. If a country has strong exports it's shares will rise. The Footsie is a capitalisation index and the weakest of the 100 will be relegated-- this works like the football league-- this means that the strongest 100 stocks are always going to ensure the movement of the index, for better or worse.

In the currency markets if Footsie goes up, the GBP will too. This is because the GBP has to be bought to buy British goods. The two are tied and if the economy falls, the GBP will fall. The amount it rises falls or rises will depend on the strength of the currency that it is paired with.
I cannot see how randomness can be associated with one and not the other.

I may have this wrong, Im certainly not an expert but the FTSE is a combination of companies. Traders buy and sell shares in those companies, so the FTSE is a combination of that. Therefore traders dont buy or sell based on S&R in the FTSE, although they may use S&R when using the companies chart. So really S&R doesnt exist on FTSE in the sense that traders are trying to overcome those levels, they are just random

In Forex however, 90% is speculation and the exchange of currency due to trade in goods or investing in a country etc is a very small part. The speculators drive the market so the big banks and hedge funds are all watching those S&R levels and trades are placed based on them and so S&R is more reliable in Forex
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

Another factor in determining support and resistance is the stochastic on the 4 hourly and trend direction.If trend is up and stochastic is up,future support and resistance areas will be higher .A trader should also gauge the market sentiment and apply it to s/r.

Reading this post, it suddenly makes sense to me how that Rothschild had to go mad and leave.

I read it once. I read it twice to make sure. I read it thrice for my brain still refused to believe what my eyes saw.

Three brief readings, that is all. But now I am completely buried in bullsh1t. More bullsh1t than I could ever have imagined could exist in one place. THIS HEAP OF BULLSH1T IS SO LARGE IT IS THREATENING TO ALTER THE AXIS OF THE EARTH.
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

In the currency markets if Footsie goes up, the GBP will too. This is because the GBP has to be bought to buy British goods. The two are tied and if the economy falls, the GBP will fall. The amount it rises falls or rises will depend on the strength of the currency that it is paired with.

I cannot see how randomness can be associated with one and not the other.

I didnt think FTSE and GBP have much of a correlation. Just because FTSE goes up, it doesnt mean currencies are being sold to buy pounds
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

Some good stuff on here so far but mostly it's about the interpretation of charts and some details on how to use Support & Resistance.

This is moving away from where I'd hoped it would go which was :

The specific thing I would like to discuss about support & resistance is WHY it works when it works. I guess we could also discuss WHY it doesn't work when it fails.

Shakone's reply was interesting and was more to the point and not a wild generalisation.

There do exist some generalisations as to why S&R works as provided by PS...

As requested - from your Thread Wall St = Minus Sum Game Post 229 (just insert S/R for TA):

TA works because of the following reasons -
Charts are visual representations of traders / crowds / human psychology acting in the markets. Traders have memories, and so remember previous price levels where price stalled or where there was plenty of overhead supply or demand ie support / resistance etc.

TA reflects human and crowd behaviour

Self-fulfilling prophesy - if everyone is looking at the same thing on their charts eg a resistance level...and the chart indicates that price tend to stall or reverse at this level , then it is more likely that different traders will look to exit longs at this level, and / or there will be a lack of buyers at this level.....and this is where confluence also comes in - the more factors which indicate the same thing, the more traders will act on it, increasing the self-fulfilling aspect

Now - I can buy the 'traders have memories' to an extent. The problem is with any obvious edge (such as seasonal edges that used to exist) is that the more people know, the more people try to jump ahead of the other people that know. This will occur through necessity. So - let's say it was discovered that you could buy on Friday, sell on Monday and have a 70% win rate with a co-equal stop & target. If this became well known, lot's of people would buy on Friday, then because of all that buying on Friday, it would become necessary to buy on Thursday because of the new swing up in prices on Friday in anticipation of the Monday rise. Then you'd need to buy on Wednesday, Tuesday, Monday until - no edge.

Obviously, if the concept of S&R is limited to a fairly small audience, then there's no reason to think it'd be edged out.

In terms of self-fulfilling, the ability for S&R to be self-fulfilling will differ by market and timeframe, hence my request for people to discuss those markets in which we have expertise.

In my opinion, the idea of the forex market being pushed around short term in the same way that the US index futures do seems far-fetched. The sheer amount of money needed to do this is massive. In forex there is a trillion dollars daily on the spot market, 362 billion dollars daily in outright forwards, 1.7 trillion dollars in swaps. Add to this that the market most retail players use does not impact these markets as they are trading against their broker.

So - perhaps we should first deal with forex. We know the players to an extent. Does anyone have any clue what the participants may/may not be doing at the point it comes to S/R. We know that retailers aren't moving the market. Who does then ? Or maybe no-one does at all...
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

In my opinion, the idea of the forex market being pushed around short term in the same way that the US index futures do seems far-fetched. The sheer amount of money needed to do this is massive. In forex there is a trillion dollars daily on the spot market, 362 billion dollars daily in outright forwards, 1.7 trillion dollars in swaps. Add to this that the market most retail players use does not impact these markets as they are trading against their broker.

So - perhaps we should first deal with forex. We know the players to an extent. Does anyone have any clue what the participants may/may not be doing at the point it comes to S/R. We know that retailers aren't moving the market. Who does then ? Or maybe no-one does at all...

Look at EUR/USD or GBP/USD before a data release or important speech, the market is usually quiet but can sky rocket or plunge after its been digested. All the speculators are causing it.
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

This is taken from Nobrainertrades website. Steve W or BillRayValentine at FF used to work as a trader at a bank:

"Market movers come in all different shapes and sizes. The interbank market is run by a plethora of institutional money managers, smaller-sized fund managers and the retail crowd. Of these three categories, the institutional money managers hold the most weight, and are responsible for the largest percentage of orders placed on a daily basis. This crew typically consists of banks and very large hedge funds looking to make money trading in the same manner as you or I.

Working for a couple of Investment Banks and a large hedge fund myself, I gained a lot of insight into what gets looked at on a daily basis and the basic premises of portfolio management. In my time I have seen many different portfolio managers implement a variety of techniques, some of which are much better than others. I have seen arbitrage strategies fail miserably, quantitative systems break apart and steady-headed portfolio managers run into disaster after failing to close a losing position, or stacking the chips on too big on something which fails.

Big or small, the potential for losing money always exists when it comes to various trading techniques. The most profitable traders I followed were the ones using the RIGHT information, day after day. These were speculators looking at the overall mentality of the market and following suit with the majority of investors. Using the WRONG information runs us into disaster. I firmly believe that the majority of new traders are memorized by the hype of trading systems and overflow of information out there to the point where the wrong information becomes embedded in their brains, and using them is second nature.

There are 3 major factors which control currency price movement: foreign supply and demand driven by a number of different variables, travelers pumping money into the local economy and speculators/investors. The speculators/investors portion of these factors is the one which we focus the most on, as our day-to-day trading regimen and price movement is for the greater part controlled by them. Volume in the FX market has exploded in recent years due to accessibility of the market, and as a result, the birth of many related ETF’s and funds speculating on the spot currency. Aside from government intervention, fundamental factors will drive the market to the extent that investors pay attention to these factors and buy or sell accordingly. The major traders and investors are looking at these fundamental and technical factors and using them when deciding to pull the trigger.

The institutional players control the cash. Period. The smaller players do not move the market like three $150mm positions placed simultaneously can. They key for a smaller daytrader or money manager is to take a look at what the three traders placing these positions are looking at, and follow suit. Assuming we are daytraders as opposed to long-term position players, fundamental analysis will generally consume a smaller portion of our day. So for a technical perspective, the trader needs to be consistent with what the biggest players in the market are looking at, plain and simple. And these are not indicators of any type – these are support and resistance levels.

Support and resistance levels work so well because EVERYONE can see them. A trader in Tokyo will see the same support/resistance level as a trader in New York, or a trader in London. The FX market is worldwide, so we need to look at what the rest of the world CAN see.

Support and resistance levels are heavily overlooked by new and even some experienced traders due to the wide range of materials out there available to the public. They sound completely boring, but they work better than everything else we see. To us, money isn’t boring. Also, people have a hard time believing that such a simple way of trading also happens to be one of the most profitable. If you are a newer trader and looking for an easy way out, I can wholeheartedly tell you that this is one of the easiest and most reliable ways of doing so. You want to be on the same page as the biggest movers out there, and this is how you do it. Support and resistance levels are what the biggest players are looking at day after day; hence, any good trader should be looking at them as well."

He goes on to talk about what makes good S&R and lots more...
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

I didnt think FTSE and GBP have much of a correlation. Just because FTSE goes up, it doesnt mean currencies are being sold to buy pounds

I'm not too sure about that.

I've picked the Euro because Europe is UK's biggest trading partner, I think about 60% UK exports go there.
 

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re: Support & Resistance Explained

Look at EUR/USD or GBP/USD before a data release or important speech, the market is usually quiet but can sky rocket or plunge after its been digested. All the speculators are causing it.

Good point... (y)
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

Support and resistance levels work so well because EVERYONE can see them. A trader in Tokyo will see the same support/resistance level as a trader in New York, or a trader in London. The FX market is worldwide, so we need to look at what the rest of the world CAN see.

OK - so if we look at this, a few questions spring to ming
-- How well do they work?
-- granted, everyone can see them - but how many influential traders use them or even look at them ? I send about $150K US to Thailand every month and to pay for business expenses. People like me that exchange currency to facilitate trade pay the bills when they are due and simply get the accountants to book the currency exchange gain/loss. There's a lot of forex trading that is not speculative, after all.
-- If they work well and everyone uses them, why do they not stop working. As before, in my simple example of the buy Friday, sell Monday 'edge', it is clear that when a lot of people jump in at one point in a specific direction, that there will be issues finding a counterparty and so you have to jump in earlier and earlier which erodes the edge.

Any clues?




If they work so well, why does the edge not dissapear from overuse in FX ?
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

I may have this wrong, Im certainly not an expert but the FTSE is a combination of companies. Traders buy and sell shares in those companies, so the FTSE is a combination of that. Therefore traders dont buy or sell based on S&R in the FTSE, although they may use S&R when using the companies chart. So really S&R doesnt exist on FTSE in the sense that traders are trying to overcome those levels, they are just random

This does pre-suppose that the dog and the tail are not interchangeable

In Forex however, 90% is speculation and the exchange of currency due to trade in goods or investing in a country etc is a very small part.

This is a surprise to me, I'd have thought it would be the other way round. I have never ever traded a forex account though. The closest I have been is wire transfers :cheesy:

The speculators drive the market so the big banks and hedge funds are all watching those S&R levels and trades are placed based on them and so S&R is more reliable in Forex

In my opinion, this is actually the strongest case for S&R levels NOT working.
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

I'm not too sure about that.

I've picked the Euro because Europe is UK's biggest trading partner, I think about 60% UK exports go there.

lol looks like correlation. Id like to learn a bit more about that and how they scale it etc. I didnt expect that.

Maybe eur/gbp isnt a good currency pair to trade using S&R - it does look like a mess.

There is a trader over at FF who trades Forex during the European open only so the influence of the stock market on those currencies is reduced

Eur/gbp has alot less volume than eur/usd so maybe another reason why its not suited to S&R
 
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re: Support & Resistance Explained

OK - so if we look at this, a few questions spring to ming
-- How well do they work?
-- granted, everyone can see them - but how many influential traders use them or even look at them ? I send about $150K US to Thailand every month and to pay for business expenses. People like me that exchange currency to facilitate trade pay the bills when they are due and simply get the accountants to book the currency exchange gain/loss. There's a lot of forex trading that is not speculative, after all.
-- If they work well and everyone uses them, why do they not stop working. As before, in my simple example of the buy Friday, sell Monday 'edge', it is clear that when a lot of people jump in at one point in a specific direction, that there will be issues finding a counterparty and so you have to jump in earlier and earlier which erodes the edge.

Any clues?

If they work so well, why does the edge not dissapear from overuse in FX ?

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=86429
he says 90% success rate.

Obviously not everyone uses S&R and not everyone will see the same levels, there must be effects from the stock market, trade etc too
 
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re: Support & Resistance Explained

Now - I can buy the 'traders have memories' to an extent. The problem is with any obvious edge (such as seasonal edges that used to exist) is that the more people know, the more people try to jump ahead of the other people that know. This will occur through necessity. So - let's say it was discovered that you could buy on Friday, sell on Monday and have a 70% win rate with a co-equal stop & target. If this became well known, lot's of people would buy on Friday, then because of all that buying on Friday, it would become necessary to buy on Thursday because of the new swing up in prices on Friday in anticipation of the Monday rise. Then you'd need to buy on Wednesday, Tuesday, Monday until - no edge.

Obviously, if the concept of S&R is limited to a fairly small audience, then there's no reason to think it'd be edged out.

Doesn't S&R work because of an extremely large audience.

Not sure if your argument about buying on Fri etc really applies to S&R ?
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

lol looks like correlation. Id like to learn a bit more about that and how they scale it etc. I didnt expect that.

Maybe eur/gbp isnt a good currency pair to trade using S&R - it does look like a mess.

There is a trader over at FF who trades Forex during the European open only so the influence of the stock market on those currencies is reduced

I picked the Euro because of the strong trading ties between the two. Everything depends on that, of course. But what triggered my interest was your comment about speculation on one exchange and randomness on the other. I think that they are tied and it's a question of preference rather than difference.
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

I picked the Euro because of the strong trading ties between the two. Everything depends on that, of course. But what triggered my interest was your comment about speculation on one exchange and randomness on the other. I think that they are tied and it's a question of preference rather than difference.

I meant more that the S&R levels on the FTSE are random in that they are NOT caused by lots of people looking at previous levels and then placing orders at those levels
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

We are clear with each other, then! :)

Until the next time, Good Trading!
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

This is a surprise to me, I'd have thought it would be the other way round. I have never ever traded a forex account though. The closest I have been is wire transfers :cheesy:

This was taken from "Currency trading for dummies (2007)"

"Estimates are that upwards of 90% of daily trading volume is derived from speculation....The bulk of spot currency trading, about 75% takes place in the so-called major currencies"

I think when it was written, daily volume was $2-3 trillion, think its now $4 trillion
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

http://www.forexfactory.com/showthread.php?t=86429
he says 90% success rate.

Obviously not everyone uses S&R and not everyone will see the same levels, there must be effects from the stock market, trade etc too

That's a great resource Scotty. Also I think your mention of correlation is important too. I think trying to trade most of the major fx pairs without an eye on the S&P500 is pointless.
 
re: Support & Resistance Explained

OK - so if we look at this, a few questions spring to ming
-- How well do they work?
-- granted, everyone can see them - but how many influential traders use them or even look at them ? I send about $150K US to Thailand every month and to pay for business expenses. People like me that exchange currency to facilitate trade pay the bills when they are due and simply get the accountants to book the currency exchange gain/loss. There's a lot of forex trading that is not speculative, after all.
-- If they work well and everyone uses them, why do they not stop working. As before, in my simple example of the buy Friday, sell Monday 'edge', it is clear that when a lot of people jump in at one point in a specific direction, that there will be issues finding a counterparty and so you have to jump in earlier and earlier which erodes the edge.

Any clues?

If they work so well, why does the edge not dissapear from overuse in FX ?

Depends what you mean by work. They will very often give an initial short term bounce, without penetrating the level very far (both bounce and initial penetration, lets say 5-15 pips, sometimes the bounce is to the pip). This gets you into the money quickly and with low risk. It may then turn around minutes later and go through the level, or it may have actually reversed and continue in your favour. The skill of then judging what is likely to happen next from price, whether to trail up the stop, take partial profits etc. will mostly determine whether you profit in the long run.

So this may not sound great as an entry. But comparing it to just a blind entry, you have entered at a point where with high probability you will get an initial push that will account for the spread or put you in the money, and if you are wrong, it won't cost you too much. Not great, but seems to be better than a random entry. It is a potential turning point that can be played with tight stop, so Support and Resistance areas present good risk reward opportunities. But although I found the initial push to be high probability, it actually being a longer term reversal point and going for a lot of pips without first testing that initial penetration and taking out stops was a lot less likely (less than 50% in my opinion).

Why doesn't the edge disappear from overuse? Well I'll take a stab at it. Consider what I just said about the initial bounce which I consider high probability. Suppose I am already short and we're heading towards a support level, but I still want to remain short long term. If I exit some on that level I can then re-enter 10-15 pips higher, and essentially I've made 10-15 pips minus spread. But I don't want to exit much higher than that level, I want to exit on the level or lower, because otherwise that's cutting into the pips I'm gaining. Secondly, it does happen that price will reverse a couple of pips above where the support level is, people getting in early and perhaps trying what you suggest. But then those that were short with target ON the level, didn't get to exit, so the number of people buying is a lot less, and the trade potential from doing that is decreased.

It is a two way market, and a lot of movement is from people exiting. So just because longs want to get in early at higher price, doesn't mean shorts do. And it is only good to be in early if the phenomenon exists and is unaffected by getting in early. In both this case, and the enter friday exit monday case, the phenomenon is affected, therefore people don't enter early and the edge persists.
 
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