Support and resistance - total rot ?

DionysusToast,.....LOL !,...thanks, that little querp,. got you the first laugh of the day!,...
(Don't take offence!), I just thought it funny,...; )
BTW: Good luck in your trading,..onwards and upwards,..or downwards,..or, hmmm,..sideways,..

Well Hilary - from your post, I shall presume the following:

1 - You do not have access to any peer reviewed study of the effectiveness of support and resistance
2 - You do believe in support and resistance, having drunk the 'kool aid' so to speak but don't have any more proof than anyone else (i.e. none) that such a thing can be demonstrated in isolation to be effective.
3 - You are unable to effectively back up what you believe in and so are left with ludicrous posts like the above to paper over the cracks

Of course, I could be wrong but I somehow doubt you will prove that to be the case based on your response above.

I'd be more than willing to go into the details of why and when you think such a thing would work but you are the one that brought up opinion vs evidential based use of this area of TA.
 
Support and Resistance (or demand and supply) and the resulting price action are the only 2 real constants of tech trading. The previous price pivots (previous obvious near-term) swing hi's and lo's are just a manifestation that demand or supply for the instrument in question was imbalanced at that point and price rises or falls beget more buying/selling...The ultimate expression of an imbalance of supply/demand is a gap in price and these too can give valuable indications as to what the market may do in the future. There can be no doubting support/resistance as it is an expression of what moves any market - demand and supply and is expressed on a chart clearly, as decsribed above. the only real question is whether support/resistance will break or hold as price comes into contact with it and for this it is price's reaction around it that gives us the clues.

When I look at a chart I ask myself where the biggest most obvious previous near-term imblanaces of demand over supply or supply over demand are and whether there is any furtrher potentioal supp/res confluence around them like fibs and trend lines....confluence is key in determining the highest probability areas at which to seek a market entry based on price action around it...

If I look at a 1hr chart and see a huge previous near-term imbalance of demand over supply for eg represented as a fractal swing low, I look to 4hr and see if such a fractal swing ,o is evident there, if so I mark it as such, and of course if there are other potential supp/res factors like a fib (s) or trend line there too so much the better. As for the question of whether it will break or hold, if price reaches it in a strong trend it is more likely that only a small reaction may occur and price may pullback from it before it has another go...therefore the working assumption is that supp/res may see pullbacks in a trend, until price action tells us it is/may be more.
 
I'll resort to any cheap tricks to win an argument Tim - I don't take anything on this site seriously apart from when I ask for help and the good boys and girls on here provide it........................

What do you want to know, mate? :D
 
eg

The 1hr screenshot is current gbpusd, look at area highlighed in blue and circled - a near-term previous 1hr swing lo zone that is co-existant as such on 4hr , ie prices rose sharply from the area....it also has the 61.8% of 4426-4769 and although not shown here the 38.2% 4229-4769 same high...so if price reached there any time soon it is likely that there could well be some demand there and price action would give us a clue as to wether that assumption is right or wrong.

264onlf.gif
 
DionysusToast,......yep,.you're right again,.....It must work for you,..(being right),..onwards and upwards,...

BTW: When you're driving a ferrari, you don't need to prove how fast you can go! ; )
We'll leave it at that, if you please,...you do it your way, and I'll do it mine,...thanks, and best of luck,.
 
Hmm well I used to publish information about what trades clients were doing on the internal chat system. On one occasion we were paid by a customer for a large GBP put/USD and got f-cked, i.e. we couldn't buy it back as vols moved higher, spot moved etc. At the end of the day I was going through the trades and spotted that one of OUR prop traders had secretly paid another bank for the exact same option about a minute after the trade was done, in other words he used the information that we were f-cked to make money for his prop account. Sad but true.

Clever guy.

Respect.
 
No, it's not illegal. After all, I had volunteered the information about the trade to the group in general. He then came to speak to me in person to chat about the trade, during the discussion of which I informed him that I was unable to cover the trade. He then scurried back to his desk to call another bank in order to place the exact same trade, thereby moving the market even futher away from me.

Illegal? Certainly not. Unethical? Hmmm, "dictum meum pactum" is so 80's you know.
 
DionysusToast,......yep,.you're right again,.....It must work for you,..(being right),..onwards and upwards,...

BTW: When you're driving a ferrari, you don't need to prove how fast you can go! ; )
We'll leave it at that, if you please,...you do it your way, and I'll do it mine,...thanks, and best of luck,.

I didn't say I was right or wrong, merely that all evidence regarding S&R is anecdotal.

Some smart comments from you but you have totally avoided any effort in backing up your statements.

Want to discuss the issue or perhaps throw in a few sport car references to impress the demo traders here ?
 
DionysusToast,...If I were selling something to you,.of course I wouldn't hesitate to back up the facts regarding S&R levels.
But,..the advice given is purely for educational purposes, and totally "free" (to you), although it has cost me thousands and many many hours,days,weeks,months,years studying the markets.
Tip: Study the 5min forex charts, you'll get a better perspective on price action.
 
I didn't say I was right or wrong, merely that all evidence regarding S&R is anecdotal.


I don't believe that you're correct in that. There are quite a few studies that give evidence of technical analysis and support and resistance.

Wiki isn't the most academic of places, but for the purpose I'll quote a small part:

"Of 95 modern studies, 56 concluded that technical analysis had positive results, although data-snooping bias and other problems make the analysis difficult...A Federal Reserve working paper[14] regarding support and resistance levels in short-term foreign exchange rates "offers strong evidence that the levels help to predict intraday trend interruptions," although the "predictive power" of those levels was "found to vary across the exchange rates and firms examined"

plus there is some work by Andrew lo which is interesting and supportive of technical analysis.

For me, most of that doesn't affect my opinion of S&R, because I can see support and resistance every single day, I'm often amazed that others can't see what seems obvious. As I posted earlier, it is quite natural. If you want to buy something, you want to pay what the last guy paid or better/want to buy at the best deal that someone else got. In other words, you want to buy at a recent low, or even lower than that.
 
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I think that most traders want that. The problem is in your last five words.

S&R are zones and wherever is the turn a case can be made, in hindsight, to justify it- just like fib lines, but sometimes these lines overshoot by a hundred points, or more. The trick is to get it right and I believe that using S&R lines is a dangerous fallacy.

However, lots of people do use them so I must assume that they get them more right than wrong.
Only they know the true answer to that.
 
DionysusToast,...If I were selling something to you,.of course I wouldn't hesitate to back up the facts regarding S&R levels.
But,..the advice given is purely for educational purposes, and totally "free" (to you), although it has cost me thousands and many many hours,days,weeks,months,years studying the markets.
Tip: Study the 5min forex charts, you'll get a better perspective on price action.

As I suspected - no-one can back this up. Even the fact that someone profits from S/R does not actually mean that it works.

Recently in a similar conversation about TA, a member who was vigorously defending TEXTBOOK TA claimed he couldn't back up his beliefs because he had invented his own TA methods, got a programmer to code them and that it was his secret and so he couldn't tell. The fact that this is obviously NOT textbook TA was lost on him but he'd painted himself into a corner with lofty claims and had no way out.

Your argument is similar, we discuss something mainstream, people defend it and when asked to discuss in detail they claim some hard-fought knowledge that they couldn't possibly reveal in public. i.e. they are talking sh1e.

Anyway - for those with an open mind, it would serve us well to first understand the concept of Anchoring.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/a/anchoring.htm

Anchoring bias in decision-making

Anchoring or focalism is a term used in psychology to describe the common human tendency to rely too heavily, or "anchor," on one trait or piece of information when making decisions.

During normal decision making, individuals anchor, or overly rely, on specific information or a specific value and then adjust to that value to account for other elements of the circumstance.

Usually once the anchor is set, there is a bias toward that value.

Now - bear with me... As Mr Gecko rightly pointed out - we need to define clearly what support and resistance are and do. One of the issues with a lot of 'horizontal' TA is that it is 'fuzzy'. The fact is that S/R is vague both in terms of what a point of support & resistance is OR the what the expected reaction to that zone is.

With Fibonacci, people look at 23.6%, 38.2%, 50%, 61.8% and 100%. How much leeway is considered acceptable to a disciple of Fibonacci ? Well - if we consider the concept of anchoring, we should consider perhaps that a Fibonacci student would allow for instance 1% each side and consider it still valid. If we take 5 percentages and allow 1% each side, then we have a 1 in 10 chance of a retracement being at one of these zones. If our anchoring bias lets us allow 2% each side, then we have a 1 in 5 chance of a retracement being at one of these zones. With anchoring, we will tell ourselves it was the fib because price came close to the fib and that was our expectation. It is NOT cause and effect.

And so we come to S/R - a vague concept with a wide range is an IDEAL candidate for anchoring, even more so than fibs.

Proof would ultimately come from the kind of tests they do in medicine - double blind tests. Take someone that thinks they are trading off S/R and give them a fake chart with randomnly assigned points of support and resistance. Would we be surprised if their performance was as good on fake S/R as it is on 'real' S/R with all other parameters equal ? Personally, I would not be at all surprised if their results were just as good.

Now I will say that I do use Support and Resistance but only using level 2 & the tape. In this case is is very short term and the use is solely related to identifying from the order flow if someone has a large order to fill on the buy or sell side. The theory is that if someone is a buyer at that price, then the price cannot drop below that whilst that person is still a buyer. Repeated hits will of course deplete their order book and eventually break through. Sometimes this support is on the move too depending on how eager their client is to put the orders through - so sometimes it's more related to a specific player/route than a level.
 
DionysusToast,.....Wow!,..you said that without a breath,.
Well done for such a detailed reply,.although, I do find that most folk who are so intent on defending "their" positions,..are usually anchored more into "their" belief systems.
As I stated in my previous post,..open your eyes, and you will also "see" how S&R work continuously throughout the day, regardless of your slant !,..all the best to you,....; )
 
DionysusToast,.....Wow!,..you said that without a breath,.
Well done for such a detailed reply,.although, I do find that most folk who are so intent on defending "their" positions,..are usually anchored more into "their" belief systems.
As I stated in my previous post,..open your eyes, and you will also "see" how S&R work continuously throughout the day, regardless of your slant !,..all the best to you,....; )

Of course it works! With so many to choose from how can it not work?

As you say, everyone defends his own position, I know that I do.
 
Splitlink,.......Deary me,..I'm not defending "My",position,..just call me a pragmatist, if you will !
If it works, all the time,..it must be real (in a sense)
I won't be lulled into a silly debate with folk who "should" know better ,..: )

BTW: This is nothing to do with my beliefs,..I could show it to you and whom ever, and you'd be silly not to use it,..is my point!
P.S Perception certainly does cloud reality,...I see this now
 
I defend my position, ie. I justify it. I'd consider myself a fool for wasting my time if I did not.

I cannot justify any argument for my using of a H&S line over any other method of entry or exit because there are so many of them and each one of them is only an approximation.

As you say, perception does cloud reality, the reality is that the price reversed. The reason why it reversed cannot be proved, much as the gurus try to tell us otherwise.
 
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