Trader333
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Isnt this down to what people believe tape reading to be ? Having read some of the dbphoenix thread on ET it appears that what tape reading is to him is not the same as what tape reading is to Mr Charts.
The phrase "Tape Reading" seems to mean different things to different traders.
Paul
The phrase "Tape Reading" seems to mean different things to different traders.
Paul
dbphoenix
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Trader333 said:
That's true. However, MrCharts has his own thread, and since this thread was begun as a result of the piece that I wrote, I assumed that that would be the focus. If I was mistaken, my apologies to everyone. If I wasn't mistaken, then it makes sense for those who follow MrCharts' interpretation to contribute to his thread rather than pursue the debate into yet another venue.
Perhaps the moderator can clarify. Since the ET thread is only a mouse-click away, it's no big deal for me to yield this thread.
Rognvald
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Paul
dbp in his post of 230404 made reference to an ET thread where the issue of what is tape readinfg to various people was discussed.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20101&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
if you have not read it then you will find it interesting I'm sure.
I'm not sure if the above is the thread you have partially read or whether you are referring to the supply and demand thread from which this one originated
dbp in his post of 230404 made reference to an ET thread where the issue of what is tape readinfg to various people was discussed.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20101&perpage=40&pagenumber=1
if you have not read it then you will find it interesting I'm sure.
I'm not sure if the above is the thread you have partially read or whether you are referring to the supply and demand thread from which this one originated
Mr. Charts
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dbphoenix,
No problem.
My "scalps" start as trades which might be much longer in duration, though still intraday. They may last seconds, minutes or hours depending on the price action. In other words they sometimes morph into trades that people apply different definitions to.
IMHO, dbphoenix, scalps, swings, level 2, tape reading, charts, volume etc are pieces of the same jig saw puzzle and are viewed differently with varying emphasis by different people and often defined too rigidly.
IMO, trading as well as possible is about thinking outside the box and integrating different imputs and not restricting oneself to one single approach. We all need to absorb high quality imput such as yours and constantly learn and adapt.
I am perfectly happy with people imputing different ideas and thoughts into a thread that I start even though it might appear on first sight to be of limited relevance.
New ideas and approaches are born of cross fertilisation and we can all help one another.
Please continue to post on any thread you think appropriate.
Best wishes,
Richard
No problem.
My "scalps" start as trades which might be much longer in duration, though still intraday. They may last seconds, minutes or hours depending on the price action. In other words they sometimes morph into trades that people apply different definitions to.
IMHO, dbphoenix, scalps, swings, level 2, tape reading, charts, volume etc are pieces of the same jig saw puzzle and are viewed differently with varying emphasis by different people and often defined too rigidly.
IMO, trading as well as possible is about thinking outside the box and integrating different imputs and not restricting oneself to one single approach. We all need to absorb high quality imput such as yours and constantly learn and adapt.
I am perfectly happy with people imputing different ideas and thoughts into a thread that I start even though it might appear on first sight to be of limited relevance.
New ideas and approaches are born of cross fertilisation and we can all help one another.
Please continue to post on any thread you think appropriate.
Best wishes,
Richard
dbphoenix
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All of which may or may not be true but which may be beside the point, depending on whether or not my understanding of the purpose of the thread is accurate. If it is, then all that you've said, while appropriate to your thread, is inappropriate to this one.
Again, though I've debated this several times, most recently on ET, it's not something I choose to debate in perpetuity, which is one of the nice things about the internet: anyone who can read and type can just look it up and save everyone a lot of time.
But this is not a life issue for me. If scalping and Level II and T&S and so on are to be included in the discussion, that's okay by me. But I have no interest in it.
Again, though I've debated this several times, most recently on ET, it's not something I choose to debate in perpetuity, which is one of the nice things about the internet: anyone who can read and type can just look it up and save everyone a lot of time.
But this is not a life issue for me. If scalping and Level II and T&S and so on are to be included in the discussion, that's okay by me. But I have no interest in it.
neil
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Lets keep it simple and let DB post in whatever vein he wishes.
Price and volume were around before Level 2. If you want Level two plus whatever is attached to it then a Level 2 thread such as Mr. C's would suffice, but lets not complicate matters by introducing things outside of DB's original intentions for posting.
Maybe DB should be a moderator of his own thread so he could politely remove off topic posts to appropriate or new threads?
Price and volume were around before Level 2. If you want Level two plus whatever is attached to it then a Level 2 thread such as Mr. C's would suffice, but lets not complicate matters by introducing things outside of DB's original intentions for posting.
Maybe DB should be a moderator of his own thread so he could politely remove off topic posts to appropriate or new threads?
rossored
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DB we have another thread running on this site which you may or may not be aware of, called No Indicators - Revisited which concentrates solely on price and volume, and was started by Fordy, Quercus and myself some time ago.
If you feel your comments would be more "welcome" there, feel free to post them there instead.
I have plenty of time for all methods of trading, but there are many of use here who are interested in, and trade solely with price and volume. Thats not meant as disrespect to any other techniques or any other traders - especially not Mr.C - just each to their own.
EDIT : actually, I guess you are aware of it because you've posted on it LOL
If you feel your comments would be more "welcome" there, feel free to post them there instead.
I have plenty of time for all methods of trading, but there are many of use here who are interested in, and trade solely with price and volume. Thats not meant as disrespect to any other techniques or any other traders - especially not Mr.C - just each to their own.
EDIT : actually, I guess you are aware of it because you've posted on it LOL
The only real difference in tape reading that I can see between DB and Richard is one of depth..I think both might agree that they tape read in a contextual fashion in relation to their respective timeframes and the difference arises only in so far as Richard using level 2 can filter down to an even more detailed level.
To explain (and correct me if I am wrong) DB will read what is happening at supply and demand tests from the overall context of where price is within the trend and utilise volume to a large extent to determine what might happen at the next test of supply and demand. Richard can do the same and with level 2 see the exact moment that a market maker might step out of the way to let supply and demand do what it must do.
It seems to me the difference essentially becomes one of scale of initial risk rather than any fundamental difference.
This fundamental difference though might be thought to have some importance, because initial risk impacts on position size directly. In theory the level 2 trader could take the same trade with a larger position size.
I am simply interpreting what both gentlemen appear to be saying so please correct me if I am wrong.
Are we not overdoing the politeness stuff on this thread ?
Cheers
To explain (and correct me if I am wrong) DB will read what is happening at supply and demand tests from the overall context of where price is within the trend and utilise volume to a large extent to determine what might happen at the next test of supply and demand. Richard can do the same and with level 2 see the exact moment that a market maker might step out of the way to let supply and demand do what it must do.
It seems to me the difference essentially becomes one of scale of initial risk rather than any fundamental difference.
This fundamental difference though might be thought to have some importance, because initial risk impacts on position size directly. In theory the level 2 trader could take the same trade with a larger position size.
I am simply interpreting what both gentlemen appear to be saying so please correct me if I am wrong.
Are we not overdoing the politeness stuff on this thread ?
Cheers
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Mr. Charts
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Fascinating.
IMO, no-one "owns" a thread and all members of this site should be free to contribute.
Perhaps if I am mistaken in that assumption a moderator would like to put me right?
I would add that T&S/level 2/tape reading were mentioned three times on this thread - very reasonably, imv - prior to the first comment I made.
I do not believe anyone should have the right to censor a thread they have started because they are unhappy with positive contributions with which they disagree or think not strictly relevant.
Let's not get into territorial disputes like the rest of the world does and end up in conflict.
Let's all think outside the box and be tolerant of one another.
chump,
From my viewpoint there is a great deal of validity in your comments
IMO, no-one "owns" a thread and all members of this site should be free to contribute.
Perhaps if I am mistaken in that assumption a moderator would like to put me right?
I would add that T&S/level 2/tape reading were mentioned three times on this thread - very reasonably, imv - prior to the first comment I made.
I do not believe anyone should have the right to censor a thread they have started because they are unhappy with positive contributions with which they disagree or think not strictly relevant.
Let's not get into territorial disputes like the rest of the world does and end up in conflict.
Let's all think outside the box and be tolerant of one another.
chump,
From my viewpoint there is a great deal of validity in your comments
Tape reading = time and sales: aka Richard Wyckoff, Jesse Livermore etc - i.e. reading THE TAPE as an out put of the ticker machine, trade by trade, as they happen.
dbphoenix's idea of tape reading seems to me to be interpreting the information given in [intraday] bars and corresponding volume. (Tell me if Im wrong) This isn't tape reading, its TA. I can see why there is confusion.
Either way, from the little I have read, dpphoenix analysis of price & volume is valid imo.
Great content - shame about the title. BUT - we should never judge a book by the cover (or title). You know what I mean.
dbphoenix's idea of tape reading seems to me to be interpreting the information given in [intraday] bars and corresponding volume. (Tell me if Im wrong) This isn't tape reading, its TA. I can see why there is confusion.
Either way, from the little I have read, dpphoenix analysis of price & volume is valid imo.
Great content - shame about the title. BUT - we should never judge a book by the cover (or title). You know what I mean.
BBB,
I disagree absolutely with your interpretation of Wyckoff tape reading. You are only touching the method he used in the most superficial manner by arriving at that conclusion...the man was a contextual trader and the tools he used was anything that aided that including the ticker, but not excluding his intimate knowledge of market relationships and players...and if he were alive today I hazard to guess he would be all over level 2 and anything else that he might find useful to trading...context is everything
Cheers
I disagree absolutely with your interpretation of Wyckoff tape reading. You are only touching the method he used in the most superficial manner by arriving at that conclusion...the man was a contextual trader and the tools he used was anything that aided that including the ticker, but not excluding his intimate knowledge of market relationships and players...and if he were alive today I hazard to guess he would be all over level 2 and anything else that he might find useful to trading...context is everything
Cheers
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Mr. Charts
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chump has hit the nail on the head......an understanding of depth of market is a powerful weapon in the arsenal. Like all things, including volume, vwap etc., it is not the be all and end all, merely an additional weapons system.
To take the analogy further in military terms, you have many weapons systems which have different uses, some of which overlap in their applications and uses by different commanders, but an integrated command and control system is a force multiplier and thus a great deal more effective in its totality than in its individual parts.
To take the analogy further in military terms, you have many weapons systems which have different uses, some of which overlap in their applications and uses by different commanders, but an integrated command and control system is a force multiplier and thus a great deal more effective in its totality than in its individual parts.
Im sure he would too. Im not saying Wyckoff or any other ONLY used the tape, or that level 2 wouldnt fall into tape reading in todays context. Sure, depth of market is important for short term plays.
My point is that looking at depth/tape reading info generally shows trade by trade info, where as there is no real understanding of how many trades took place if just looking at a 10 min bar and its volume.
My point is that looking at depth/tape reading info generally shows trade by trade info, where as there is no real understanding of how many trades took place if just looking at a 10 min bar and its volume.
I don't understand why their is a debate of the right way to trade: indicators no indicators, level2, price and volume. Why do people object to them when they have not tried them, isn't t2w about learning not debating about whos method is the best. I would think that using DB's Price and Volume and Richards, Level 2 together would be very good. Different methods work for different people.
Please correct me if I am wrong
Please correct me if I am wrong
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