Spread betting, a viable option to make a living out of?

[HawkTrader]

I make part of my living from SB. If my other income was taken away I'm not sure if I could surive on SBing, so I'm not fully making a living, but still some pocket money!

I don't know if my 'beginners luck' will carry on, I've been doing it for about 4 months.

 

[gamma]

So far we only have two visitors who claim a living income from SB. Any more takers?

For that matter, does anyone wish to claim a living income from their DMA?

Hi Tomorton,
The problem is not so much making a income from trading be it DMA or SB, its more a question of how much you depend on it, specially in the ealier part.
I am lucky enough to have another source of income.
Last week, I only managed to take 20 points from the market. as I simply could not find a trade that met all my entry requirements.

Now had my only source of income been trading, I would be under pressure to trade and would have possibly traded, when I should not and possibly made a lot of points in the process.
Or maybe not!
Depending on trading, as your sole soure of income is folly and possibly one of the main contributing factors to traders losing their shirts.

 

[Paul71]

it's very difficult to take you seriously and yes your bitter statements are very transparent. This childish stance; spread betting = gambling, dma = trading, is pathetic...Ooh look, let's get as 'deep' as you can handle, heh dude it's all gambling...

Always amazes me how many people actually think they are not gambling. If a person is purely speculating in any market for a return with profit then they are gambling. DMA is gambling, but because a person is taking part within the auction process of a market it is termed 'trading', as in trading contracts. SBers bet on the outcome of the market.

Once a trade or bet is placed or transmitted then it is at the mercy of the market, this is something that is out of everyones control, unless you are God, he doesn't need stops.

The better traders look for action in terms of orders, volume etc, this invariably lets you know how well your trade will do in the long run, but it's still gambling. Bloody hell, it's too ealy for this, i'm off for coffee.

 

[0007]

Always amazes me how many people actually think they are not gambling. If a person is purely speculating in any market for a return with profit then they are gambling. DMA is gambling, but because a person is taking part within the auction process of a market it is termed 'trading', as in trading contracts. SBers bet on the outcome of the market.

Once a trade or bet is placed or transmitted then it is at the mercy of the market, this is something that is out of everyones control, unless you are God, he doesn't need stops.

The better traders look for action in terms of orders, volume etc, this invariably lets you know how well your trade will do in the long run, but it's still gambling. Bloody hell, it's too ealy for this, i'm off for coffee.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=gamble*1+0&dict=A
defines gambling as "verb: to risk losing money in the hope of winning a lot more money, esp. if the result of a future event happens as you hope "

So isn't that what we all do? With a positive expectancy I don't see it as a problem. SB? DMA? broker? - take your choice

 

[tomorton]

Hi gamma - sounds like a similar situation to my own. But I guess we'd have to count us both as a 'No's' on SB for the time being.

Hi Paul71 - Clear thinking, thank you.
Any profit-motivated participation in a process or event with an uncertain outcome is gambling. That has to include DMA or speculative purchase of assets by any other medium. The distinction is not merely an academic exercise. The psychological element is key in investment / trading / gambling and people's behaviour is very much affected by their perceived security from risk and morality of what they are doing. I would be prepared to believe that a Warren Buffet-style investor believes he is not gambling, that he might see gambling as borderline immoral behaviour and that if he were forced to take part in what he thought of as gambling he would behave very differently in the process as contrasted with his behaviour managing what he perceived as an investment. And this is regardless of probability of success or 'odds': that has nothing to do with the definition.

 

[Black Swan]

Hi Tomorton,
The problem is not so much making a income from trading be it DMA or SB, its more a question of how much you depend on it, specially in the ealier part.
I am lucky enough to have another source of income.
Last week, I only managed to take 20 points from the market. as I simply could not find a trade that met all my entry requirements.

Now had my only source of income been trading, I would be under pressure to trade and would have possibly traded, when I should not and possibly made a lot of points in the process.
Or maybe not!
Depending on trading, as your sole soure of income is folly and possibly one of the main contributing factors to traders losing their shirts.

Wow, I didn't expect such a sweeping generalisation from you...in relation to you waiting for the perfect entry requirements that strat will skew any trading edge based on probability, (which they all are).

 

[gamma]

Wow, I didn't expect such a sweeping generalisation from you...in relation to you waiting for the perfect entry requirements that strat will skew any trading edge based on probability, (which they all are).

hI Black Swan,
But nowhere did I say my entry criteria was perfect in relation to the market.
As a matter of fact my entry criteria kept me out of many a good trade.

 

[arabianights]

gamma I think the thing to consider is if you trade well enough you can easily build up a capital base to survive not being able to trade for a while if there are no opportunities.

However if you can't find any opportunities in an entire week maybe it's worth looking for other opportunities

 

[gamma]

Could not agree with you more, there arabianights,

I am quite lazy and tend to limit myself to too few pairs.

Sometimes I wonder if one has to be more hungry to trade forex.

 

[oildaytrader]

it's very difficult to take you seriously and yes your bitter statements are very transparent. This childish stance; spread betting = gambling, dma = trading, is pathetic...Ooh look, let's get as 'deep' as you can handle, heh dude it's all gambling...

I lost/missed out on trades on Friday that could have, should have netted me 200+ pips...I bagged other trades, circa 200 pip movements, throughout the week. Average pip retention (on the winners) was 46. Last week I took 42 trades..across 10 pairs..Repeat and rinse this week would make for a great month....

There is a clear difference between gambling and trading.I hope you understand .

Trading currencies is about waiting for those two to three trades a year.The rest of those two thousand trades a year , trader should be sitting and doing nothing.These two or three opportunities are sure-fire opportunities where your risk of loss is negligible.

These trading opportunities are driven by fundamentals and an interest rate rises or falls.When these opportunities arise ,the markets are chasing those currencies where yields are higher or selling those where yields are lower.

Please stop your child stance and stop making any more useless remarks and maybe you will learn something useful which will help you in your trading career.

The top traders trade directly with the banks and not spreadbetting companies.

The trader will always avoid paying the extra 2 pip spread upfront to the spreadbetting companies .If the trades performance is mediocre ,and the result is breakeven.That 2 pip spread paid in advance will result in a end result of minus 2 pips.The direct trader will avoid the 2 two pip extra spread , and still come out with a 2 pip profit.It does not matter now if he pays tax on the 2 pip profit , but the spreadbetting procedure results in a loss of 2 pips.

I hope you learn something and please no more fallacies.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/forex-news-analysis/76816-gbp-fundamental-technical-anylysis.html

There is also a thread on Aud/jpy worth reading .

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/forex-discussion/76330-audjpy-ready-pop.html

http://www.scotiafx.com/Chart_Feed/fxout.pdf[/QUOTE]



O D T

 

[oildaytrader]

Hi Tomorton,

Now had my only source of income been trading, I would be under pressure to trade and would have possibly traded, when I should not and possibly made a lot of points in the process.
Or maybe not!
Depending on trading, as your sole soure of income is folly and possibly one of the main contributing factors to traders losing their shirts.

You should try my latest invention ( it is still not released).It removes the stress before putting any trades, it manages the trade i.e opens,closes,moves stops,trailing stops,applies progressive betting option,traders are not stuck to the screen,it monitors prices every few milliseconds,and it consistently guarantees a regular income ( 2 months maximum losing period) of 30 to 40 % a year.

With this new tool a trader can spend his time looking for entries on multiple instruments i.e 15 to 20 currency pairs,oil,dax,shares etc.The software will do everything else.

All traders has to do is find entries with a 50/50 hit rate and load the software.The software does the rest.

 

[tomorton]

Hi oildaytrader - I think you're conflating poor trading with gambling, as if they are on a spectrum of competences. Actually, even the best trading is still gambling, but no disrespect to the trader. Even if you have a mountain of data to support a position, all you have done is increase your probability of success and reduce the costs of failure - its still gambling, you haven't taken the decision out of gambling, but you have shortened the odds.

I'd still find more interesting responses from SB traders and DMA traders who are making a living income. We have 2:0 to the SB side so far. Gamma and I are warming up on the sidelines waiting to join SB. Are you on the field for DMA or still at the training ground?

 

[Jack Hughes]

Two or three trades a year? 200 trades in a lifetime?! Somehow I don't think I have what it takes for FX.

 

[oildaytrader]

I'd still find more interesting responses from SB traders and DMA traders who are making a living income. We have 2:0 to the SB side so far. Gamma and I are warming up on the sidelines waiting to join SB. Are you on the field for DMA or still at the training ground?

I am already trading live on DMA (S T P) on eleven automated systems for fx.

In next couple of weeks my manual entries go live using the new auto trade manager.

In about a months time 25 automated progressive betting strategies , using sound money and trade management will be ready to go live , in any case at latest by 1 st January.

The new automated oil systems are on test and probably go live in January.

Hopefully I will be full time next year , but not on spread betting

O D T

 

[oildaytrader]

Two or three trades a year? 200 trades in a lifetime?! Somehow I don't think I have what it takes for FX.

Read some articles by Bill Lipschultz and a book called " trading currency cross rates".Traders like my self can make a living trading full time but it took 10 years to get to where I am .It wasn't an easy road .

 

[HawkTrader]

Read some articles by Bill Lipschultz and a book called " trading currency cross rates".Traders like my self can make a living trading full time but it took 10 years to get to where I am .It wasn't an easy road .

Sounds a bit boring. What am I supposed to do with all that spare cash? Blow it on more trading of course!!

 

[Black Swan]

There is a clear difference between gambling and trading.I hope you understand .

Trading currencies is about waiting for those two to three trades a year.The rest of those two thousand trades a year , trader should be sitting and doing nothing.These two or three opportunities are sure-fire opportunities where your risk of loss is negligible.

These trading opportunities are driven by fundamentals and an interest rate rises or falls.When these opportunities arise ,the markets are chasing those currencies where yields are higher or selling those where yields are lower.

Please stop your child stance and stop making any more useless remarks and maybe you will learn something useful which will help you in your trading career.

The top traders trade directly with the banks and not spreadbetting companies.

I hope you learn something and please no more fallacies.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/forex-news-analysis/76816-gbp-fundamental-technical-anylysis.html

There is also a thread on Aud/jpy worth reading .

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/forex-discussion/76330-audjpy-ready-pop.html

http://www.scotiafx.com/Chart_Feed/fxout.pdf

O D T[/QUOTE]

You're simply confirming that you're utterly clueless and totally misguiding novice forex traders, position trading looks great with 20:20 hindsight and a rear view mirror. if you're using institutional funds then a stop loss of 500-2000 might be considered good, it may be considered good if you have v. deep pockets and or invaluable experience built up over a succcessful track record of a decade or more (neither of which description is applicable to you), but for novice day traders/swing traders, particularly those exploring the opportunities offered up by forex and or SB to make profits, your 2-3 trades per year strat. is a nonsense.

 

[oildaytrader]

O D T

You're simply confirming that you're utterly clueless and totally misguiding novice forex traders, position trading looks great with 20:20 hindsight and a rear view mirror. , your 2-3 trades per year strat. is a nonsense.[/QUOTE]

I was merely clarifying the difference between trading and gambling.

There aren't 40 trades to be had in a week. unless trader is clueless.

Even my automated systems only have an average of three trades per day on FX.Some weeks they take on 4 to 5 trades , and they got more clues how to trade.

 

[oildaytrader]

Hi oildaytrader - I think you're conflating poor trading with gambling, as if they are on a spectrum of competences. Actually, even the best trading is still gambling, but no disrespect to the trader. Even if you have a mountain of data to support a position, all you have done is increase your probability of success and reduce the costs of failure - its still gambling, you haven't taken the decision out of gambling, but you have shortened the odds.

The way you guys are thinking , next the local shopkeeper will be considered a gambler.



If a shopkeeper agrees to pay rent,rates,insurance,staff wages etc and ends the year on loss , he too will be considered a gambler.

period.

 

[mbtrading]

I was merely clarifying the difference between trading and gambling.

There aren't 40 trades to be had in a week. unless trader is clueless.

Even my automated systems only have an average of three trades per day on FX.Some weeks they take on 4 to 5 trades , and they got more clues how to trade.

I dont post much around here as can be seen, although Ive been a member a long time, and used to find some entertaining and informative reading throughout these forums, there are still gems here , but this is perhaps the biggest load of drivel I have ever read in 7 years,

The number of trades a week depends on system and trading technique, not on whether a trader is or isnt clueless.

A scalper with entry points decided on 5 minute bars and exits on 1 minute bars, for instance, could quite easily have 40 or more trades per week, and a very profitable system at that. To suggest such people are clueless is simply assinine.

Now thats not my style of trading, but it is no less valid, because the ONLY thing that is important is taking money out of the market. I trend trade long term mostly, I make my money on less trades than you, does that mean I am better? Of course not, its just a different style,nothing more , nothing less.

Whether you are percieved as a gambler or a trader by the snobs and the loud mouths, whether you trade spread betting or direct market, none of it is important. if you are a trader, all that matters is the end result, the profit.

For the record for the OP, I use DMA , and its my only income. I also use spread trading, mostly to test new strategies, Capital Spreads being the main one as it happens, I would say that its entirely possible to make money with spread trading, but like every other part of the business, there is no holy grail, quick fix or golden key, you have to understand what the market is, how it behaves and adapt your trading style to fit.