Hoggums
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,176
- Likes
- 878
That episode certainly had a sting in the tail.
That episode certainly had a sting in the tail.
Lee Shepherd
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,164
- Likes
- 573
As the post I wrote above states:
Lose the term PROFITS - its not, its winnings, the same goes for a lottery syndicate or if you win £5k a month for life etc.
Also lose the word TRADE - as stated, he will not be trading, he will be on Spreadbetting and the clue is in the title - BETTING, same as gambling.
If you pool the money or not it has the same tax implications, in this instance it is zero. Same as a consortium or syndicate. It's still classed as gambling.
Someone above has mentioned messing around with loans to do this, this may be good in relation to tax dodging of the well spoke of recently K2 scheme but this has no meaning here, KEEP IT SIMPLE.
Remember its gambling and that's all it is, whether there is one of you or hundreds of you, £1 or £100, full time, part time or one off. Its still the same.
Spreadbetting in the U.K is not tax deductable, for your benefit or the tax office, you cannot offset losses nor can you proclaim they are to be taxed as earnings and claim as profit. Gambling is recognised in the U.K as TAX FREE. Also remember that more people lose than win so this law will not be changed anytime soon.
Hope this helps others that read this although I think the real main point is this:
Once you are winning more than you are losing on a regular basis and constantly taking out rather than putting in then take some money out and pay for a tax specialist to help with your returns, at this point they will put your mind at rest. When I say taking money out I quite often here people say they want to build up their account and that's why they don't take out, bollox, take it out and spend it spanish style (what ever ratio, 30%, 50% etc, but take some out, you need paying for your time and trouble and if it cant pay you then you are shouldn't be going to any trouble), the market can never then take back what you take out and spend and build up a nice little nest egg for future failures or bad trading events.
If however you get to the stage where you are constantly taking out and you find yourself facing a tax bill on this then contact me either via skype, mobile, telephone landline or post to my home address and I will help you free of charge over a coffee. Easy and simple.- It doesn't have to be any other way.
Regards,
Lee Shepherd
BeginnerJoe
Senior member
- Messages
- 3,329
- Likes
- 351
He's doing more than that. He's starting off the younger members of the family in the path of disaster. Instead of buying lollipops with their piggy bank money, they use it to gamble in the market casino.
Lee Shepherd
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,164
- Likes
- 573
Hi SybilCut,
I think maybe (with all respect)that you may have read the first post then commented without reading the main parts and differences in between.
Alex Hope was TRADING - Not GAMBLING and more to the point was making unauthorised trades. He is akin to a rogue trader (although no charges brought yet as far as I know but this is beside the point). He is being looked into for a Foreign Exchange Trading Scheme - the enthuses goes on TRADING.
This is a whole different issue to what the OP has stated he wants to do.
Heres a link so we can compare the case against what the OP wants to do:
Alex Hope, 23-Year-Old Millionaire, Arrested In UK For Trading Scheme
Although many people will doubt the OP's success, I on the other hand do not know the OP nor know how well he trades or doesn't, again this is not my business. He has asked if he can do something legally and the answer is yes. Straight forward and simple. See my posts above. If one sticks to this then its fine, outside of these parameters then one could find themselves in the poo.
Kind regards,
Lee Shepherd
rsh01
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,184
- Likes
- 299
Lee, with respect to your above statements, you are obviously aware of futures products provided by exchanges which can be traded direct with the exchange (DMA) and which are cash settled. With that in mind, say for example the shiny patterns on the seashells are telling me that the volatility index up trend will extend to f125, and I buy @ market the VIX future via CBOE and the VIX future via IG, and wait for them both to settle, and as sure as a natures crystal ball indicated, the Profit is credited to both my accounts.
Ignoring clearing houses, other intermediaries, fees charged etc, can you ellaborate (and help me understand) why the former is deemed by you (not the IR) as trading and not betting and the latter is betting not trading?
If I understand you correctly you stress that its the actions of the person which is the difference, but even without the above example, the actions of the person is the same - a speculation on prices/values going up or down. So perhaps I misunderstood you, and its the mediator (the exchange-real product/price; or the SB-affectively hypothetical product/price) which creates the difference in meaning? If that is the case then we can all refer to betting/trading as either trading or betting, without having to constantly correct people. Imo setting up a business is a gamble - there's a lot of factors outside your control, so you hope that your investment of time/resources into the company has favourable external influences.
I have prob just misunderstood you either way, but still look forward to your response.
Trust me you will still get hammered for managing people's money under a spreadbet account. I urge the OP to ring/email the FSA. Do not take any chances.
donaldduke
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,665
- Likes
- 260
Lee Shepherd
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,164
- Likes
- 573
Hi All,
I'll start from the last post and work swiftly backwards.
The link that DonaldDuke has kindly posted is in relation to a bankruptcy for Christopher Gregory Williams who has been operating a Scheme and fund for investors. Again I stipulate, THIS IS INVESTING in a SCHEME or/and FUND. This is required by law to be FSA registered as you are holding other peoples money for a PROFIT / RETURN.
The OP just wants to do for family and friends and therefore can set up a consortium - this is totally different to a fund or scheme. A consortium is under the same guidelines as I collecting £1.00 from each of you every week to buy a lottery or pools ticket, the same rules apply for a syndicate.
I would just like to state that all us from a previous life on here knew this person and knew what he was doing, I was also involved with people that was involved with him. For the record and those that don't know his name it was WASP. Luckily the person (friend) that I knew managed to withdraw his money and get it back in full before the collapse of this FUND. It worked similar to a ponzi scheme. You can find bankruptcy details of this person on the insolvency register. Unfortunately I won't have any further conversation other than this as some of the case is still underway, however, most is now public knowledge.
@SybilCut - You are correct, you will get hammered if you MANAGE other people's money. Like I've stated, you don't MANAGE other peoples money unless you are FSA registered. If I take your £1.00 to put in the lottery Syndicate/Consortium I am not managing your money, I am not charging you nor am I giving you any profits. We are in agreement that you are giving me your £1.00 to put in the pot to but tickets/Bets/Gambling etc with. Managing peoples money is a separate issue to gambling with someones money on there say so.
@rsh01 - I wont get in to the in's and out's of why the law states one thing but not another, this is why Tax avoidance schemes like the infamous K2 is around and strong, its legal, its a loophole, it's immoral, whatever, call it what you like but the bottom line is no law is broken. The same with trading or gambling, it doesn't matter whether you think business is gambling or spreadbetting is trading, the law is the law. Stick with it, inside of it and play it to your best ability.
I'll make this the last post on this subject as it really doesn't concern me and my interest on debating this has come to an end. However it does concern the person that wants to do such a thing and the only true conclusion can be to do ones own due diligence. I hope I can speak on behalf of all (the good people) here that this is the key thing, based on what has been posted - check further. No post on here should be construed as accurate and true even if all of us strongly agreed on a particular subject or not.
All the best,
Lee Shepherd
I'll start from the last post and work swiftly backwards.
The link that DonaldDuke has kindly posted is in relation to a bankruptcy for Christopher Gregory Williams who has been operating a Scheme and fund for investors. Again I stipulate, THIS IS INVESTING in a SCHEME or/and FUND. This is required by law to be FSA registered as you are holding other peoples money for a PROFIT / RETURN.
The OP just wants to do for family and friends and therefore can set up a consortium - this is totally different to a fund or scheme. A consortium is under the same guidelines as I collecting £1.00 from each of you every week to buy a lottery or pools ticket, the same rules apply for a syndicate.
I would just like to state that all us from a previous life on here knew this person and knew what he was doing, I was also involved with people that was involved with him. For the record and those that don't know his name it was WASP. Luckily the person (friend) that I knew managed to withdraw his money and get it back in full before the collapse of this FUND. It worked similar to a ponzi scheme. You can find bankruptcy details of this person on the insolvency register. Unfortunately I won't have any further conversation other than this as some of the case is still underway, however, most is now public knowledge.
@SybilCut - You are correct, you will get hammered if you MANAGE other people's money. Like I've stated, you don't MANAGE other peoples money unless you are FSA registered. If I take your £1.00 to put in the lottery Syndicate/Consortium I am not managing your money, I am not charging you nor am I giving you any profits. We are in agreement that you are giving me your £1.00 to put in the pot to but tickets/Bets/Gambling etc with. Managing peoples money is a separate issue to gambling with someones money on there say so.
@rsh01 - I wont get in to the in's and out's of why the law states one thing but not another, this is why Tax avoidance schemes like the infamous K2 is around and strong, its legal, its a loophole, it's immoral, whatever, call it what you like but the bottom line is no law is broken. The same with trading or gambling, it doesn't matter whether you think business is gambling or spreadbetting is trading, the law is the law. Stick with it, inside of it and play it to your best ability.
I'll make this the last post on this subject as it really doesn't concern me and my interest on debating this has come to an end. However it does concern the person that wants to do such a thing and the only true conclusion can be to do ones own due diligence. I hope I can speak on behalf of all (the good people) here that this is the key thing, based on what has been posted - check further. No post on here should be construed as accurate and true even if all of us strongly agreed on a particular subject or not.
All the best,
Lee Shepherd
scose-no-doubt
Veteren member
- Messages
- 4,630
- Likes
- 954
Just get people to open their own accounts and see if you can get their accounts to shadow yours or something. That's your best bet.
Attempting to create is any kind of legitimate, tax free spread betting fund set-up is quite frankly a ridiculous endeavour where the ludicrousness of the whole episode is compounded by seeking advice of an anonymous bulletin board rather than from legal professionals.
Attempting to create is any kind of legitimate, tax free spread betting fund set-up is quite frankly a ridiculous endeavour where the ludicrousness of the whole episode is compounded by seeking advice of an anonymous bulletin board rather than from legal professionals.
YouAreNotFree
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,295
- Likes
- 225
Money, friends and family.
Hmmm. Sounds like a recipie for disaster.
Hmmm. Sounds like a recipie for disaster.
scose-no-doubt
Veteren member
- Messages
- 4,630
- Likes
- 954
"Money and blood don't mix like two dicks and no b1tch... find yourself in serious sh1t!" - Biggie Smalls
rsh01
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,184
- Likes
- 299
ok a non answer then, nws.
i will continue to call trading (buying & selling) in financial markets as 'trading' (regardless whether its through a SB or direct with exchange) rather than the 'gambling' / 'betting' you call trading through an SB, and which you have for some odd reason (no reason given yet hence why its odd) stressed others to call it:
my parents called it 'gambling' - because they had little understanding of the subject, and if the law wants to take the same stance and make it tax free then all the better.
thanks.
glyder
Established member
- Messages
- 755
- Likes
- 94
I think it will be running a collective scheme under the law and very likely a breach of law / FSA rules.
Spreadbets are a gamble in one sense (mainly for tax purposes) but not the sense that they are exempt from any of the Financial Services & Markets Act. They are a designated investment under the Regulated Activities Order. Once outside of tax laws, spreadbetting is investment activity without a doubt. Mifid, FSMA, its covered in them all.
In terms of managing a fund the definition is below. Even a fund for gambling on the horses could fall within it. I recall FSA have taken action against funds aimed to invest in antique furniture before, because the underlying pooling of funds for this constituted a collective investment scheme - the definition is very wide.
a collective investment scheme, as defined in section 235 of the Act (Collective Investment Schemes), which is in summary:
(a) any arrangements with respect to property of any description, including money, the purpose or effect of which is to enable persons taking part in the arrangements (whether by becoming owners of the property or any part of it or otherwise) to participate in or receive profits or income arising from the acquisition, holding, management or disposal of the property or sums paid out of such profits or income
Having said that, there are family funds that if set up correctly can be managed without FSA authorisation. You'll be very unlikely to be able to spreadbet with these because you won't get the tax advantages. But with proper legal advice and agreements you will be able to operate without FSA authorisation, or with an exemption.
Spreadbets are a gamble in one sense (mainly for tax purposes) but not the sense that they are exempt from any of the Financial Services & Markets Act. They are a designated investment under the Regulated Activities Order. Once outside of tax laws, spreadbetting is investment activity without a doubt. Mifid, FSMA, its covered in them all.
In terms of managing a fund the definition is below. Even a fund for gambling on the horses could fall within it. I recall FSA have taken action against funds aimed to invest in antique furniture before, because the underlying pooling of funds for this constituted a collective investment scheme - the definition is very wide.
a collective investment scheme, as defined in section 235 of the Act (Collective Investment Schemes), which is in summary:
(a) any arrangements with respect to property of any description, including money, the purpose or effect of which is to enable persons taking part in the arrangements (whether by becoming owners of the property or any part of it or otherwise) to participate in or receive profits or income arising from the acquisition, holding, management or disposal of the property or sums paid out of such profits or income
Having said that, there are family funds that if set up correctly can be managed without FSA authorisation. You'll be very unlikely to be able to spreadbet with these because you won't get the tax advantages. But with proper legal advice and agreements you will be able to operate without FSA authorisation, or with an exemption.
tony1979
Active member
- Messages
- 112
- Likes
- 22
Read the whole thread, it'll make more sense.
rsh01
Experienced member
- Messages
- 1,184
- Likes
- 299
i read the thread before posting the first time thanks.
my question still stands....i was just trying to understand why lee insisted on ppl calling trading financials via a SB 'betting'/'gambling' and not 'trading'? he insisted on other threads. it doesnt matter what we call it, its so similar to trading as per my example that why not just call it trading, and let the IR call it whatever. his opinion differed, and i wanted to know why but he didnt oblige.
it was asked in my post#27:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/gen...beting-family-friends-fund-4.html#post1896562
you should have read it before posting...it will make more sense.
similarly baffled by some other of lees comments eg:
"If you stick to the above, then you are not a business nor a company. You are not guaranteeing returns or profits but simply gambling someone's money on their say so to hopefully win."
setting up a business/company is not guaranteeing returns/profits either.
basically i didn't understand much of what he wrote, & i never will it seems as hes done a hit & run, and now i am guilty of clogging it up.
Lee Shepherd
Senior member
- Messages
- 2,164
- Likes
- 573
Hi rsh01,
Sorry I haven't responded. As my post dictates I won't respond anymore on the subject as to me its been done. As with most threads once they've been done they then become derailed and sidetracked or off the point. The main point is the OP has enough discussion to be able to make a course of action as to whether its worth pursuing or not. The OP has not come back for further questions but yet left us to discuss amongst ourselves when of course its not ourselves that care for the matter.
On the other hand if you wish to speak with me personally about this subject in confidence as you or someone you may know wishes to get involved in such a way with others to set up a consortium then please feel free to skype me and I will continue in private. Please note though, I will only discuss this with you if it will help you, if its purely for information only purposes and you have no intent on using it now or in the future then please save your time for other things.
PS: I call spreadbetting gambling because it is just that by law. I also ensure I call it this so I don't get taxed as is required by law. When you are taking regular money from a Spreadbetting account after a few years (and a few people 'friends/chat forum people' stitching you up) you will have a meeting with the Inland Revenue about it. However, once its noted on file they leave you alone.
PSS: The 'business nor a company' had a full stop after it. The 'not guaranteeing returns or profits' was a separate sentence. Many times if something is read out of context or not read thoroughly will not make sense. Even after my posts people have still come up with examples of cases that use the term, FUND, TRADING, SCHEME, PROFITS, EARNINGS. When you (hopefully) have your meeting with the IR you too will understand this when you explain your position. Failing that you may wish to pay tax on it, personally I don't.
All the best,
Lee Shepherd
Sorry I haven't responded. As my post dictates I won't respond anymore on the subject as to me its been done. As with most threads once they've been done they then become derailed and sidetracked or off the point. The main point is the OP has enough discussion to be able to make a course of action as to whether its worth pursuing or not. The OP has not come back for further questions but yet left us to discuss amongst ourselves when of course its not ourselves that care for the matter.
On the other hand if you wish to speak with me personally about this subject in confidence as you or someone you may know wishes to get involved in such a way with others to set up a consortium then please feel free to skype me and I will continue in private. Please note though, I will only discuss this with you if it will help you, if its purely for information only purposes and you have no intent on using it now or in the future then please save your time for other things.
PS: I call spreadbetting gambling because it is just that by law. I also ensure I call it this so I don't get taxed as is required by law. When you are taking regular money from a Spreadbetting account after a few years (and a few people 'friends/chat forum people' stitching you up) you will have a meeting with the Inland Revenue about it. However, once its noted on file they leave you alone.
PSS: The 'business nor a company' had a full stop after it. The 'not guaranteeing returns or profits' was a separate sentence. Many times if something is read out of context or not read thoroughly will not make sense. Even after my posts people have still come up with examples of cases that use the term, FUND, TRADING, SCHEME, PROFITS, EARNINGS. When you (hopefully) have your meeting with the IR you too will understand this when you explain your position. Failing that you may wish to pay tax on it, personally I don't.
All the best,
Lee Shepherd
MORRIS2001
Member
- Messages
- 74
- Likes
- 7
This wouldn't be correct as spread betting has its own caveats within tax law and the gaming act. Spreads themselves are broken into two parts as well, financial and non financial with the two being subject to different law and governance.
It isn't 'gambling'. It is a financial product regulated by the FSA, it is not governed by gaming law.
This is very important. The history goes back to the 80s when IG Index and City needed to be able to enforce gambling debts as both had nearly gone to the wall as a result of client defaults. The solution was to lobby the SFA and ensure that they became a 'regulated' instrument. This was succesful.
On an additional note, the person would be doing this work for a remuneration, so this would bring the activity in under the umbrella of the FSA unless funds were pooled privately. But that brings you back round to one of the earlier issues.
But, spread betting is a wierd hybrid because it is classified as a 'bet' for the purposes of taxation, but a regulated instrument for the full working and delivery of the product which came about from needing to solve the problem of 'betting' debts not being enforceable in court.
