Spread Bet Prices
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counter_violent
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Tx for the replies fella's
Some useful info there.
What is " real trading" ?
counter
Tx for the replies fella's
Some useful info there.
What is " real trading" ?
counter
'Real Trading'
That is what the 'Professionals' do. They put up $50,000 or thereabouts with their Direct Access Brokers in order to trade US shares intraday; have Level II data feeds; place orders in the market; pay 'true spreads'; eat Newbies for breakfast; hand over 40% of their profits to Gordon Brown and stick two fingers up to those that read or post on spread bet threads. Get the picture?
That is what the 'Professionals' do. They put up $50,000 or thereabouts with their Direct Access Brokers in order to trade US shares intraday; have Level II data feeds; place orders in the market; pay 'true spreads'; eat Newbies for breakfast; hand over 40% of their profits to Gordon Brown and stick two fingers up to those that read or post on spread bet threads. Get the picture?
the blades
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counter_violent said:[
Tx for the replies fella's
Some useful info there.
What is " real trading" ?
counter
for "real trading" read "my dad can fight your dad".
It usually appears at the end of any thread where those who despise SB, yet spend their lives on SB boards, have run out of anti SB topics that they've read about, somewhere.
UTB
TheBramble
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That's not totally fair TB.the blades said:
Although BBB has a rather robust posting style, that doesn't mean his comments should be discounted or his experience or knowledge of SBing called into question.
Take this post:-
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?p=146096#post146096
Another highly respected member of the boards voicing a similar position on SB as does BBB - albeit in a different style, but the intent is the same. To help those who haven't got as much experience to consider more fully all the issues and pros/cons involved with SB as opposed to other platforms.
BBB clearly has some strong views on SB and although some claim to make a living from SB, it is equally clear that many don't. I think that's his central theme and he's simply highlighting the probabilities for us all.
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the blades
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TheBramble said:
No, I'd agree. Though the fact that he states (I seem to remember) that he never has, or never intends to have a SB account does put his "experience" into question, surely?
Like I've said before, saving 40% of my profit is the definitive point, for me. Tales of spread bias, until I come across them, will simply remain tales to me.
But sadly the fact that any experience offered by SB users will simply be written of as the "claims" of "hobby traders" really renders these debates useless.
I think we will all agree that the majority of SB ers don't make money. But it's almost accepted wisdom that something like 90% of ALL traders lose money, so this is hardly a killer blow. It is also why it isn't inconceivable that those who do are not closed down by the SB firm. Another SB myth?
UTB
Sorry to disagree with you, Tony, but our interpretations of what's going on here are very different.TheBramble said:
First, what you see as a "rather robust posting style" I see as offending and insulting people (more so in the other thread than in this one, I admit).
Secondly, BBB has stated openly that he has NO experience of spread-betting at all; so there is none to call into question!
The problem here is that he gives his "opinion" (based on NO experience, remember) in terribly forceful and outspoken terms. As he does so, gradually more and more members with experience on the subject appear and join in to question his views, to inform him that he's wrong, and to explain to others that often the position is in fact exactly the opposite of what BBB has so aggressively stated. But he learns nothing from this and then repeats the whole thing all over again in another new thread. And that really _isn't_ good enough behaviour, in my view, however useful and helpful BBB is on other subjects about which he clearly knows rather more.
I'm sure (and have in fact acknowledged in some of my own posts) that he's a good and experienced and helpful trader in other ways, but on this subject he's really doing a lot of harm, and he ought to be able to see that and understand it, and if he doesn't then people who know better should keep on and on and on telling him until it becomes so embarrassing for him that he stops doing it.
He is entitled to do that. Just as a whole group of more experienced people are entitled to point out, every time he does so, that he has by his own admission NO experience of spread-betting, and that very often his "facts" are just plain wrong. David Michaelson did it very effectively in another thread (until he got fed up with being insulted by BBB, anyway) and I'm trying to do it here.TheBramble said:
Yes, I'm sure all the people here use this site just to find out your opinions on everything, BBB.BBB said:
What we all know (because you kindly told us in another thread last week) is that you've never done any spread-betting at all. That might give people a clue about how much weight to attach to your opinion (though to be honest the vehemence and strength with which it's expressed is clue enough all on its own to anyone with any sensitivity and perceptiveness).
What saddens me is that I feel sure that someone as experienced a trader as you must have plenty of other genuinely useful and informative things to impart, as you sometimes have done in the past on other subjects. It's a shame, from my point of view, to see such a barrage of inaccurate negativity from you on a subject of which, by your own admission, you have precisely zero experience.
Haven't you noticed that every time you post anything on spread-betting a substantial and ever-increasing chorus of better-informed voices tells you that you've just got your facts wrong?
Doesn't that make you think again, or can you really believe that the voice of NO experience and a lot of mistaken and erroneous opinions is a more valuable one on this subject than the voices of several people who have been making their living in this way for some years?
Roberto said:Sorry to disagree with you, Tony, but our interpretations of what's going on here are very different.
First, what you see as a "rather robust posting style" I see as offending and insulting people (more so in the other thread than in this one, I admit).
Secondly, BBB has stated openly that he has NO experience of spread-betting at all; so there is none to call into question!
The problem here is that he gives his "opinion" (based on NO experience, remember) in terribly forceful and outspoken terms. As he does so, gradually more and more members with experience on the subject appear and join in to question his views, to inform him that he's wrong, and to explain to others that often the position is in fact exactly the opposite of what BBB has so aggressively stated. But he learns nothing from this and then repeats the whole thing all over again in another new thread. And that really _isn't_ good enough behaviour, in my view, however useful and helpful BBB is on other subjects about which he clearly knows rather more.
Like I have stated 1000's of times before - I dont need to jump off a cliff to know I can't fly - just as I don't need to open a spread betting account to know its not the best way to make money.
OK - so I'm going to get shot down for this - but so what. If most of the spread betters knew what they were talking about, they wouldn't be posting half the stuff they do.
No one who is serious about trading would ever put a handicap on themselves - and all those who claim to be making $xxxxxxxx per year from spread betting lack credibility, as if they were to learn to trade properly would be able to make twice this.
They embarrass them selves in the eyes of those who know the business. Their claims of savings on commissions and tax are also false. If trading (sbread gambling, futures what ever)is your main source of income, you will be taxed on the profits (if eligible to pay tax) regardless of where the money is made - a point that has also been made 1000's of times, but still ignored by the dreamers. So it is clearly a false claim. If you are not eligible to pay tax then you wont pay tax on futures income either will you? DOH! OK - I'm sure some bright spark will come up claiming to be earning £50k on their day job, but £200k spread betting - yes of course they do!
As for the million dollar dreamers out there who claim that they save money on not paying commissions, then again they are TOTALLY clueless! They should be in the asylum! The reason is SIMPLE! The r/t costs on a real trade will be less than the spread handicap the spread bookie puts on you. If you are successful (which although many of you claim to be - yea right - how come you don't know the basics then??) then the spread will also be wider than normal anyway.
As for this last point of other 'more experienced members', again I would have to disagree. It is clear in my eyes that those who really know what they are talking about dont spread bet. You can't go on the number of posts someone has to ascertain how much real experience they have can you. Just because some one has a different opinion to myself doesnt make them more experienced.
Anyway, I'm tiered of this to be honest. Why dont you all continue to waste your days convincing your selves you are all right - while the real traders are trading, not making multi page posts day in - day out. Professional trader or professional poster?
the blades
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BBB said:
Hmmmm....
where are the posts claiming that no commission is paid? Please don't make up silly claims so that you can dig yourself out of your pit by rubbishing them.
Roberto trades for a living - maybe he can answer the tax issue. I make a good living outside trading so the tax issue IS relevant to me, and many others. If I were to trade full time then maybe I'd re-assess.
Reasonable minded traders know that as with most things, it's horses for courses.
Your cliff analogy is mis-guided. You wouldn't throw yourself off becuase everyone agrees you would die. But if a restaurant were to open nearby and you'd heard mixed reviews, you might try it?
As for your professional poster jibe - as you spend so long on the SB pages , a topic you know nothing about, one can only assume you spend far more on other forums (almost 3 posts per day - pot - kettle)
So my advice to you is a little less aggression, less time on the BB's and maybe one day, the tax issue will be relevant to you
UTB
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the blades said:
Yawn.
I think everybody knows the main *benefit* of spread betting is that there is NO commission. Instead you pat a wider spread. I would have thought you would have known this if you make £150k every 3 months as you claim to!!
What a joker.
the blades
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BBB said:
so we can add inability to read and pure ignorance to your list of endearing features.
£150K is the total bet size - though you wouldn't understand. It was used to put into perspective the volume of trading done and the chances that I've missed potential downsides.
Yes there is a wider spread - who disagrees? And I always consider part of the spread as commission - call it what you like. But if you make profit, a 40% saving outweighs the spread on "longer term" trades. It is so simple that it appears it is in fact you who is the joker.
Come back when you have something to offer.
UTB
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Unless you are also a Tax Expert, the information you have been posting regarding this issue is wrong and misguided. Roberto must be aware of his tax status and it is up to him to arrange his tax affairs the way he deems fit. To cast dispersions on his claims and statements is outrageous and uncalled for; those that spread bet do not call your integrity into question to bolster their arguments so there is no need for you to do so.
You claim that we pay too much in spreads - Prove it. You claim that we do not trade properly - What is trading properly? You call us clueless - On what basis? You do the newcomers a great disservice by making these claims and remarks as your arguments are not based on experience but on assumptions that your years of market participation make you all knowing. Why must you fill their heads with the notion that only those that have £50,000 in their brokerage accounts are real traders making any money when that is a fallacy.
If we were to assume that we are a bunch of incompetent oafs making clueless posts because we have nothing better to do; what does that make those that continue to read and respond to those same posts?
You claim that we pay too much in spreads - Prove it. You claim that we do not trade properly - What is trading properly? You call us clueless - On what basis? You do the newcomers a great disservice by making these claims and remarks as your arguments are not based on experience but on assumptions that your years of market participation make you all knowing. Why must you fill their heads with the notion that only those that have £50,000 in their brokerage accounts are real traders making any money when that is a fallacy.
If we were to assume that we are a bunch of incompetent oafs making clueless posts because we have nothing better to do; what does that make those that continue to read and respond to those same posts?
the blades
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Roberto said:I often check the prices/spreads at FXCM and CapitalSpreads before entering a trade, and use the narrower spread, which is often CapitalSpreads. (But I dare say that in general your observation is true).
I should've been more specific - I was talking about shares. Not that anything we say would make a difference
Still, one day you will realise that the "real pro's" will be paying the wider spread because only they know what they're doing
UTB
Even if he IS a tax expert, the information he's been posting regarding this issue is wrong and misguided.LION63 said:
I assume from this that he can't be a tax expert.For myself (and I would not presume to advise others on their own position apart from prompting them to seek expert advice from a suitably qualified and specialised professional), I'm not concerned about tax on spread-betting at the moment, because it's not my sole income. The Inland Revenue knows about my earnings from spread-betting (which are my main source of income), has made no attempt to suggest that any tax is payable on them, and has given no indication that they intend to do so in future, as long as it isn't my SOLE income.
Ah yes ... indeed. I've heard of those. (What are they, again?the blades said:
)In some quarters, sadly true. But other readers, as David Michaelson pointed out in another thread, will have no difficulty deciding for themselves whether to believe polite people with some experience or rude and aggressive people with none.the blades said:
the blades said:
Revealing
According to the Compact Oxford English Dictionary "boodle" is a noun for informal money, especially that gained or spent dishonestly. ORIGIN: originally denoting a pack or crowd: from Dutch boedel, boel ‘possessions, disorderly mass’.
Rather appropriate in the circumstances.
BBB said:
According to the Compact Oxford English Dictionary "boodle" is a noun for informal money, especially that gained or spent dishonestly. ORIGIN: originally denoting a pack or crowd: from Dutch boedel, boel ‘possessions, disorderly mass’.
Rather appropriate in the circumstances.
Roberto said:
hmm wonder if it was say someones sole source of income being taxed and being earned under self employed basis etc if they then would have to (by acknowledgement of the former) allow you to offset any future potential losses into next period? and you would i assume if being assessed for income purposes produce a trading p+l account netting off cost of sales against revenue etc. less expenses? pay the wife 10k to make you coffee and ummm file things...expenses, professional fees , capital goods tax allowances,depreciation on lots of things (hmmm, you'd need an accountant to get creative here ) casual labour expenses for stress relief from the visiting massage lady, and on and on.... crikey almost a respectable enterprise
lets face it mp's make 120k vanish in expenses.jsd.
frugi
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BBB said:
So are we BBB. Your refusal to moderate your strong (often factually incorrect) opinions and insulting tone towards other members has earned you a week's enforced freedom from posting. I trust this dispensation will help you to concentrate on "real trading" without distraction.