sick of 'gurus': new trader asking advice from normal traders?

[BeginnerJoe]

Luck is the only thing that you seem to have Im afraid.

My second luck of the week. In anticipation of the question: yes, the elephant was responsible.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

The market was too quiet for anything more than 2:1 RR. So am out and most likely done for tonight.

Luck, gamble, ratio, blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day it's the profit increase that counts. Of course the elephant counts also.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

Too many winners causes going-large causes losses causes learning of lessons. I don't wanna play any more. So I am really, really done tonight.

 

[DionysusToast]

should this actually read how much buy side liquidity is pending and unseen until executed discretionary orders ahead of you, inc (if you like) front running for supply once the current bid/asks moves within fractions of that level.....the level might be common-garden sup, fib pivot level....again depending on the time of the day?

Well - you certainly need buyers putting in market orders after you get in long. No good just having them behind you on the bid.

I tend to be more interested in getting a bias, then getting an entry. I try not to look for too much else. You could look for lots of additional reasons for people to get in after you but personally, I find the more things I look at, the worse I trade.

for myself i very rarely use a limit buy when long side whereas i'll place limit sells when long side during specific periods of activity usually if i want to get the best scale at the end of the move......for example, buy to open 4, set sell to close 1+1+1 with 1 discretionary incase the level i'm looking for is overshot and i can nail that level at a better-than exit

Yup - market in, limit out is what I do 99% of the time.

The reason I don't enter on a limit is fairly simple. Let's say inside bid on ES is 1390.25 (I wish) and I want to long. I can lift 1390.50 or join the bid at 1390.25. Let's say there's 500 contracts bid @ 1390.25.

If I join the bid - I am saying that I think selling will continue, that there will be more that 500 sell market orders hitting 1390.25 so that I will get a fill. I think that after these 500 and a bit, that buy market orders will lift 1390.50 and push the price up from there. I think buyers will buy and market will move up BUT only after more that 500 sell market orders hit the bid.

If I lift the offer - I am saying that buying will continue and move prices higher

I have a problem with the whole proposition of joining the bid, on the ES anyway. It seems you want the market to move against you just enough before moving your way. Seems like you need a really high degree of accuracy to do that and I just can't wrap my head around it.

also, as a posting by-the-by, i notice in your opines, you change your reference of your pov from "I" to the universal "you" pov.....and you also put a great deal of thought and energy into being educational (hence the use of the universal "you") and that's a curious thing considering how much you put down the amount of bs available.....again i think if you stick with your pov and drop the universal "you" pov then your message will be that more effective .....when i'm speaking from my own perspective i find i get best feedback by using "i"........take that as a good thing.........

ok - so I'd better drop my plan to always refer to myself in the third person then...

i think if you were to go back and collate a lot of your posts they would make effective reading for many newbies even some wannabe pros.......and there's very few people who've ever posted on T2W that (err) "you" could say that about :cheesy:

Says more about the people that I studied to be honest.

There's a guy I recently met that now lives in Phuket. He used to trade the pits 'back in the day'. He has generously offered to put my family up at his residence during the school holidays. He's also going to show me how he trades the DOM which will probably p1ss both the wives off as they'll be expecting dinners out. Very generous guy.

What goes around....

 

[Mike Kshemaraja]

Two days work,(my short term method) just closed. Take care. I am away for a while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvB5dQHvRSc&feature=related

 

[Sidekicker]

There's a guy I recently met that now lives in Phuket. He used to trade the pits 'back in the day'. He has generously offered to put my family up at his residence during the school holidays. He's also going to show me how he trades the DOM which will probably p1ss both the wives off as they'll be expecting dinners out. Very generous guy.

If I had time I would watch the DOM at areas of interest and record what happens specifically to start with on fades and also on breakouts.
But I have a day job, so it's impossible to trade using a DOM or volume so I'll quite happily deal with SR and market sentiment in the meantime.

 

[DionysusToast]

If I had time I would watch the DOM at areas of interest and record what happens specifically to start with on fades and also on breakouts.
But I have a day job, so it's impossible to trade using a DOM or volume so I'll quite happily deal with SR and market sentiment in the meantime.

Well - here's the thing about the DOM.

Whilst it's an ideal thing to watch at areas of interest, you'll probably never learn how to use it if you start off that way. To get into it, you need to watch it on it's own. No charts. No indicators, nothing.

In terms of time commitment. Well - it'd be nice to stare @ it for 8 hours a day but how long exactly can a human being remain focused on something? An hour, maybe an hour and a half? Any more than that & you probably aren't learning anything. Once you can read the action there, then you can switch the charts & stuff back on and integrate it to whatever you already do, if you actually feel that is necessary.

If you can make money without it, then I wouldn't bother to be honest.

 

[TheBramble]

Apart from the spoofing which occurs on DoM, does it not worry any of you seriously discussing it that DLPs possibly make DoM more of a ‘noticeboard of intent you’re supposed to get’ rather than a useful device for interpreting real liquidity?

 

[Sidekicker]

Well - here's the thing about the DOM.

Whilst it's an ideal thing to watch at areas of interest, you'll probably never learn how to use it if you start off that way. To get into it, you need to watch it on it's own. No charts. No indicators, nothing.

In terms of time commitment. Well - it'd be nice to stare @ it for 8 hours a day but how long exactly can a human being remain focused on something? An hour, maybe an hour and a half? Any more than that & you probably aren't learning anything. Once you can read the action there, then you can switch the charts & stuff back on and integrate it to whatever you already do, if you actually feel that is necessary.

If you can make money without it, then I wouldn't bother to be honest.

I'm not so sure about that...perhaps you're right but my thinking behind that is that at SR, you are expecting it to hold and reverse or breakout and to become either very liquid with the exchange of contracts at that point or so illiquid that it is rejected. This is a very specific set of behaviour at a very specific area and one that you could learn what to look for on the DOM. Just looking at the DOM in the middle of a range with no idea of what the overall direction is supposed to do might not help much?

If you can make money without it, then I wouldn't bother to be honest.

agree with that although I almost never stop trying to learn new stuff with trading.

 

[DionysusToast]

Apart from the spoofing which occurs on DoM, does it not worry any of you seriously discussing it that DLPs possibly make DoM more of a ‘noticeboard of intent you’re supposed to get’ rather than a useful device for interpreting real liquidity?

Not really - mostly because the spoofing/intent part of reading the DOM is pretty low down on the list of things you get from it.

 

[DionysusToast]

I'm not so sure about that...perhaps you're right but my thinking behind that is that at SR, you are expecting it to hold and reverse or breakout and to become either very liquid with the exchange of contracts at that point or so illiquid that it is rejected. This is a very specific set of behaviour at a very specific area and one that you could learn what to look for on the DOM. Just looking at the DOM in the middle of a range with no idea of what the overall direction is supposed to do might not help much?

You are right that at your zones, you will see specific action. Still, if you watch it for an hour or two, you'll see a lot going on. Especially if you can watch 8am EST -> 11:30am EST.

First thing you need to do is be able to even absorb the info and get into the flow. If the ES is in a 2 point range, that's pretty good practice for someone reading the DOM. Hard to explain really but it is my belief and know a few others that believe too that you need to drop the other stuff in order to focus your attention on learning the DOM.

I would imagine everyone is different though.

 

[Sidekicker]

You are right that at your zones, you will see specific action. Still, if you watch it for an hour or two, you'll see a lot going on. Especially if you can watch 8am EST -> 11:30am EST.

First thing you need to do is be able to even absorb the info and get into the flow. If the ES is in a 2 point range, that's pretty good practice for someone reading the DOM. Hard to explain really but it is my belief and know a few others that believe too that you need to drop the other stuff in order to focus your attention on learning the DOM.

I would imagine everyone is different though.

Other stuff being TA? Yes and no. Even people using the DOM talk about Market profile (which you can see in the DOM anyway), and market profile is TA at its heart anyway, particularly the rejection areas, which are the SR areas most of the time and the acceptance areas within the range.

There are specific parts to read it, there's the Time and Sales part, the profile part, and the order flow bid/ask movements (spoofs, flips, block orders, big seller, big buyer gobbling up orders, etc.)

Speaking of which, on the FTSE what is a decent amount of contracts flowing through it? For example, in the ES you take note when there's about 200/300 going through the T&S in one batch and then whether it goes bid or offer. In the FTSE, no way you'll get anywhere near that amount of contracts...

I'm presuming Bund is not as large as the treasury market either?

 

[wekim]

If I join the bid - I am saying that I think selling will continue, that there will be more that 500 sell market orders hitting 1390.25 so that I will get a fill. I think that after these 500 and a bit, that buy market orders will lift 1390.50 and push the price up from there. I think buyers will buy and market will move up BUT only after more that 500 sell market orders hit the bid.

If I lift the offer - I am saying that buying will continue and move prices higher

I have a problem with the whole proposition of joining the bid, on the ES anyway. It seems you want the market to move against you just enough before moving your way. Seems like you need a really high degree of accuracy to do that and I just can't wrap my head around it.

very right
But.. when you do get filled on the bid, if the market doesn't move and doesnt tick either up or down, you are in a risk free position, because you can turn around and re-sell at the bid at only the cost of commission. Whereas if you lift the offer, you are paying a premium for liquidity, and to turn around and exit your trade you must then hit the bid at a one tick loss. There are trade offs to both approaches and I certianly don't have a good answer

There's a guy I recently met that now lives in Phuket. He used to trade the pits 'back in the day'. He has generously offered to put my family up at his residence during the school holidays. He's also going to show me how he trades the DOM which will probably p1ss both the wives off as they'll be expecting dinners out. Very generous guy.

I hope youll share what you learn

 

[TheBramble]

right
but..



I hope youll share what you learn

Do you want me to share with you what I learned from a guy in Phuket?

 

[Sidekicker]

Do you want me to share with you what I learned from a guy in Phuket?

what type of guy?

 

[TheBramble]

what type of guy?

Well, I say a guy, he was, sort of. Anyway he said:-

เมื่อคุณมีการสำเร็จความใคร่ให้ปิดตาของคุณและมองขึ้นไปเท่าที่คุณสามารถลงในด้านบนของกะโหลกศีรษะของคุณ

And he was right. I've always done it ever since and I guarantee when you do it, you'll never not do it ever again. It's almost spiritual in its intensity.

 

[TheBramble]

Google translator is crap by the way, should have checked that before I posted. But 'put out' is 'look up as far as you can'. Just be careful you don't detach your optical nerve. Mind you, even that would be worth it.

 

[Sidekicker]

Google translator is crap by the way, should have checked that before I posted. But 'put out' is 'look up as far as you can'. Just be careful you don't detach your optical nerve. Mind you, even that would be worth it.

Brilliant translation...sounds like you were into some sordid stuff shagging skulls.

 

[TheBramble]

Brilliant translation...sounds like you were into some sordid stuff shagging skulls.

No. At the point of orgasm, you raise your eyes as far upward as you can (preferably with eyelids shut closed to protect your partner - on the assumption you are facing them) and see what happens. It’s all to do with the way the brain is wired and the position of the eyes and what primary circuits this energises in the body.

 

[DionysusToast]

Other stuff being TA? Yes and no. Even people using the DOM talk about Market profile (which you can see in the DOM anyway), and market profile is TA at its heart anyway, particularly the rejection areas, which are the SR areas most of the time and the acceptance areas within the range.

There are specific parts to read it, there's the Time and Sales part, the profile part, and the order flow bid/ask movements (spoofs, flips, block orders, big seller, big buyer gobbling up orders, etc.)

Speaking of which, on the FTSE what is a decent amount of contracts flowing through it? For example, in the ES you take note when there's about 200/300 going through the T&S in one batch and then whether it goes bid or offer. In the FTSE, no way you'll get anywhere near that amount of contracts...

I'm presuming Bund is not as large as the treasury market either?

When I say "Other Stuff" - I mean anything else that isn't the DOM.

If you want to learn to read the DOM, my opinion is that you have to switch everything else off.

Of course, I mean a proper DOM like XTrader and all that's on it. People need to be aware that not all DOMs are equal in what info they give, as you well know.

In terms of FTSE - I would have no clue. Everything is relative. You can see what 'large' is for a market by watching it for 30 minutes. I'd personally steer clear of FTSE as it is so thin.