Qualifications

[birth0215]

Hi, I have been reading the threads and it seems to me that most of the recommendations for people who want to become traders seems to be to get a degree. I was slightly confused, as I thought that the qualification to go for should be the Certificate of Sercurities from the Sercurities Institute?
I have just dropped out from Uni and am looking for a new direction, so please don't tell me to go back to full time education

 

[Robertral]

Hi, I have been reading the threads and it seems to me that most of the recommendations for people who want to become traders seems to be to get a degree. I was slightly confused, as I thought that the qualification to go for should be the Certificate of Sercurities from the Sercurities Institute?
I have just dropped out from Uni and am looking for a new direction, so please don't tell me to go back to full time education

Well test the water by sending some apps out or letters asking what they expect of candidates!!!!

98% will require a degree!!!! unless you want to be a stock broker making 500 cold calls aday on 13K a year

It's about competition for places......y employ someone without a degree when u can get someone with one for the same amount of money

 

[TWI]

Problem is that these days there are so many people coming out with degrees that that doesn't seem to matter so much anymore as where you got your degree from.
To be honest, in my experience education is no gauge of potential to be a trader. The best trader I know (apart from myself ) left school at 16. I have Degree in Physics & Maths but have not applied it once during my working life apart from maybe the way to approach a problems. BUT as an employer you need to apply filters in order to get what you consider the best candidate, degree is an easy place to start.
Incidentally it is hard to spot talent for trading, I have not been able to do this with success and nobody I know has either, the only way you find out how good somebody is, is to dump them in the market, tell them the basic rules and see how they turn out.
Your best bet may be to try and get onto one of the arcade schemes. I think you will have a hard time going to any corporate or IB without the degree it is hard enough with a good one.

 

[birth0215]

twalker - if it is about determining the trading capability of an individual, suppose I keep a trading diary that records the trades I make and the information leading to a decision and perhaps the time took to make a particular decision, would that actually help?

 

[TWI]

Well only if the trading book is auditable. i.e. you have broker statements to back it up, after all anybody could make up something from historical data.

 

[sak07]

Twalker is right in that a degree is set as a filter for many city employers who believe that a degree would be the minimum academic requirement for many of their jobs, in many cases some only interview applicants with a masters or doctoral degree. To be honest if I was an employer I would want to know why you decided to drop out of uni (they may see you as someone who quits when the going gets tough) and you better have a good come back answer. I suspect your application may just get filtered out straight away however, and that you would be lucky to get to interview. However, you could take other courses, things like the IMC or certificate of securities would be a huge asset to your CV as it shows a bit of initiative.

 

[TWI]

Bill Gates was also a dropout so it is not a definitive end.

 

[sak07]

Yeah...but Bill Gates didn't want to go and work at the likes of Goldman Sachs did he?

 

[birth0215]

Sigh... only got myself to blame for choosing the wrong course... I'll think of something... thanks guys

 

[sak07]

There is always the self-employed route into trading. There are numerous trading houses that take on traders on a self-employed basis, check out macfutures and there are loads others that have been mentioned on this forum. Its a little bit riskier than getting into the Investment Banks but being self employed has its benefits. As far as I know they would probably take you on without a degree although you'd have to show a genuine interest in the markets, and if your already trading for yourself then this shouldn't be a problem. As far as I know Twalker works at such an arcade so he'd know more than I would but I've had a look on a few of the websites and they don't seem to specify that candidates need a degree.

This is the route that I am seriously considering after I graduate next year, we'll be in same boat except I'll have a degree (that I'll never use) and a student loan to pay off. Not having a degree is not the end of the world as long as you can show a bit of initiative. The larger employers of traders will work you to death, I did an internship last summer with a large American IB and to be honest I was totally put off. Yeah the money's fantastic, but they get their pound of flesh and job security is questionable. The people I was working with were horrifically arrogant and many are just downright rude. Give the self employed trading arcades a try...you'll have to work hard but that goes for any job.

 

[mikeyk]

Hey,

I dont have a degree and have applied to various arcades. I had or was offered interviews at 6 different companies. The end result is that I had 1 offer, 1 nearly and I'm waiting to hear about 3 others. Dont ask about the sixth one.

So having a degree isn't a prerequisite, although genuine interest, passion and knowledge about what you want to do is. I'm a firm believer in that if you really really want something badly enough it doens't matter what is against you or in your way, you will find a way to succeed.

 

[TWI]

If you want to get into arcades also consider that they are looking for people without financial commitments for the first 6months-1year when you will be learning the business. It is more important to find proactive individuals with a passion for it and cheap living costs than it is a grad.

 

[BBB]

Well done Mikeyk. Even though I do have a degree, I agree.

I dont think academics help you at all in trading. Maybe if you're into system design, but as a trader, I find the more I think about it, or the more I try to analyse the situation the less successful the trade becomes - because I start to justify and develop internal excuses as to why I should stay in a position instead of tightening a stop. You've got to develop an instinct that only comes with experience, determination and enjoyment of trading - not in a classroom.

Whats going to make you money - pulling the trigger, or reading about how many different ways to pull a trigger based on a sub set of algebraic conditions that determine the square root of the market index / the price of turds?

 

[Robertral]

Well done Mikeyk. Even though I do have a degree, I agree.

I dont think academics help you at all in trading. Maybe if you're into system design, but as a trader, I find the more I think about it, or the more I try to analyse the situation the less successful the trade becomes - because I start to justify and develop internal excuses as to why I should stay in a position instead of tightening a stop. You've got to develop an instinct that only comes with experience, determination and enjoyment of trading - not in a classroom.

Whats going to make you money - pulling the trigger, or reading about how many different ways to pull a trigger based on a sub set of algebraic conditions that determine the square root of the market index / the price of turds?

Wrong....what are you going to do if you want to trade exotics????

 

[BBB]

Exotics - you mean the relationship between orange juice & aluminium options! The question is - who wants to trade exotics? Only those who cant make it in the real world.

Like I said - academic qualifications are fine if you want to be a quant, or interested in making 0.25 of the index a day - every day, but I'd rather take a bit more than that.

Not every one wants to work for a bank, just so they can impress their mates with a business card. Not everyone wants to see their earning potential restricted by someone else. Not everyone wants to join the ratrace and throw their lives away. Not everyone has realised that hard work and long hours doesnt equate to th highest earning potential. Not everyone can see this.

At the end of the day it depends what you want to do - be a trader or be a boffin. One earns a lot more money than the other.

 

[alpha_monkey]

Exotics - you mean the relationship between orange juice & aluminium options! The question is - who wants to trade exotics? Only those who cant make it in the real world.

Like I said - academic qualifications are fine if you want to be a quant, or interested in making 0.25 of the index a day - every day, but I'd rather take a bit more than that.

Not every one wants to work for a bank, just so they can impress their mates with a business card. Not everyone wants to see their earning potential restricted by someone else. Not everyone wants to join the ratrace and throw their lives away. Not everyone has realised that hard work and long hours doesnt equate to th highest earning potential. Not everyone can see this.

At the end of the day it depends what you want to do - be a trader or be a boffin. One earns a lot more money than the other.

hmmm... not sure. real money is where the margin is. i.e. structured products. trading isn't the be all and end all.

 

[Robertral]

Exotics - you mean the relationship between orange juice & aluminium options! The question is - who wants to trade exotics? Only those who cant make it in the real world.

Like I said - academic qualifications are fine if you want to be a quant, or interested in making 0.25 of the index a day - every day, but I'd rather take a bit more than that.

Not every one wants to work for a bank, just so they can impress their mates with a business card. Not everyone wants to see their earning potential restricted by someone else. Not everyone wants to join the ratrace and throw their lives away. Not everyone has realised that hard work and long hours doesnt equate to th highest earning potential. Not everyone can see this.

At the end of the day it depends what you want to do - be a trader or be a boffin. One earns a lot more money than the other.

Fella, those aren't exotics!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

So you are saying there is no correlation between being a boffin and a trader?? wrong again!!!!!

One earns more than the other?? Depends....There are loads of quants that earn 100K's more than the trader....depends on what product group

 

[TWI]

It is the be all and end all on these boards
Anybody talking structured products is a heretic and must be burned.

 

[Robertral]

It is the be all and end all on these boards
Anybody talking structured products is a heretic and must be burned.

The guys in structoring make shed loads more than the traders........structored products is the place to be......

 

[BBB]

So you'd call someone who left school at 16, no qualifications, yet was earning £4 million pa by the time he was 21 a boffin would you?

I dont want to sound too harsh here - and I hope you dont take offence at this, but you obviously haven't been involved in the markets too long have you kid.

Maybe your idea of a 'shed load' and mine are at very different ends of the spectrum.

Go stick your head in a book, or go back to Uni for another 6 years if you think it will give you an edge (for someone else). Id rather be taking money out of the markets for real, not reading about it or developing theories about it.