Please advise - Coin Collector

[wally_]

Thanks for your quick response. Are you renting the system? I was poking around their website and it looks like you can only rent it for 200 bucks month. The other thing I didn't see was the 10,000 dollar account that they were using to make these trades with real money.

Maybe because the 10,000 dollar account was only a one month gimmick to entice new buyers. I don't know but if it was really the case then the so-called 'vendor integrity' (an oxymoron, anyway) has reached a new low level.

BTW, they used to sell this stuff for about $700. Have they stoppped doing it and switched to licensing it at the rate of $97 a month? I cannot find the option of one single payment... Any help?

 

[tradermaji]

I am not sure if they are updating their $10k account or not, but they did update their results on their website. BTW, I am trading it live using StrategyRunner.

As for the vendors/developers, I have spoken with Marcus and Ben. They are very helpful and knowledgeable about the markets. I would encourage anyone interested in trading CC to speak to these guys and let me know if my assessment is right or wrong. From my personal experiece, Markus told me about his experience with floor traders and how the pit operates. That has helped me understand a lot about price actions.

As for pricing the system, I guess they want to maximize their revenue. I believe they have a limit of 100 licenses in total, so they will have to ensure the maximum returns for their money.

I am sure that I am coming across as defending these guys, and I make no qualms about it... I am defending them. They have been very helpful to me and have been always honest with me. I feel it is my way of saying thank you to the guys who has helped me. By the way, if you have a legitimate strategy you want to test, ask Markus. I am sure he can help you out as he did for me.

Good trading to everyone,
Maji

 

[Markus_H]

Maybe because the 10,000 dollar account was only a one month gimmick to entice new buyers. I don't know but if it was really the case then the so-called 'vendor integrity' (an oxymoron, anyway) has reached a new low level.

Wally,

No, it wasn't. But here in the US the market is highly regulated for maximum customer protection which IMO is a great thing.

The Commodities Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) advised us not to publish our real account performance. According to CFTC Rule 2-29 (Communications with the Public and Promotional Material), “Members may not present the performance of one particular account unless that performance is representative of the Member’s overall customer performance.”

As you know we are working with Limit orders, and therefore sometimes we might receive a fill while our customers don’t or vice versa. For this reason “one particular account” (Rockwell Trading’s account) is not representative to the overall performance of all our customers. That’s why we are not supposed to publish the results of our own trading.

In the past few weeks we have been working on an interface to Collective2, an independent company rating traders and trading systems.

According to their website Collective2 has the world's fastest-growing database of trading systems. Every time a trading system publishes a new "trading signal," they watch how that piece of trading advice fares in the real world by tracking it against real-time market prices. Collective2 keeps a record of every trade - when it was recommended, how it performed, when it was closed.

You can check the results here:

www.collective2.com/go/coincollector60min
and
www.collective2.com/go/coincollector40min

Regarding pricing of the system:
We conducted a customer survey and asked them about their preferred payment option. The majority wanted to lease a system on a monthly base, that's why we changed the payment options. It's not easy please everybody

Markus

 

[wally_]

Wally,

No, it wasn't. But here in the US the market is highly regulated for maximum customer protection which IMO is a great thing.

The Commodities Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) advised us not to publish our real account performance. According to CFTC Rule 2-29 (Communications with the Public and Promotional Material), “Members may not present the performance of one particular account unless that performance is representative of the Member’s overall customer performance.”

As you know we are working with Limit orders, and therefore sometimes we might receive a fill while our customers don’t or vice versa. For this reason “one particular account” (Rockwell Trading’s account) is not representative to the overall performance of all our customers. That’s why we are not supposed to publish the results of our own trading.

In the past few weeks we have been working on an interface to Collective2, an independent company rating traders and trading systems.

According to their website Collective2 has the world's fastest-growing database of trading systems. Every time a trading system publishes a new "trading signal," they watch how that piece of trading advice fares in the real world by tracking it against real-time market prices. Collective2 keeps a record of every trade - when it was recommended, how it performed, when it was closed.

You can check the results here:

www.collective2.com/go/coincollector60min
and
www.collective2.com/go/coincollector40min

Regarding pricing of the system:
We conducted a customer survey and asked them about their preferred payment option. The majority wanted to lease a system on a monthly base, that's why we changed the payment options. It's not easy please everybody

Markus

Markus,

I appreciate your information. The reason I was interested in your actual performance is the one you already alluded to in your post, namely that using limit orders will not always give you fills while you get such 'fills' in your hypothetical trades. Obviously, you do not get fills for the trades that bring in profits and so the actual performance is likely to be worse than the hypothetical one. Considering that your system takes about 50 trades a month I estimate that you will not get fills for 3 trades a month and assuming that the average winning trade is 3 pts this would lead to the difference of about $450 a month per contract which can be important at the end of the month. These are only estimates, based on my experience with systems like that, but yours might be different and so I would not like to take this number for granted. It was mostly for this reason that I wanted to see actual trades to get a better idea on this issue. In any case, what is your experience in this matter? Also, those using the system, please share your opinion on how often you do not get fills.

Thanks,
Wally

 

[Markus_H]

Dear Wally,

Your estimation is quite good: We experience 6-8 "non-fills" in 100 trades.

We tested the system on different timeframes and with different orders using real money and the current timeframes and order types produce the best results.

You are absolutely right about the hypothetical results:

Hypothetical results are always a best case scenario and they have many inherent limitations, some of which we describe on our website:
http://www.rockwelltrading.com/rockwell-trading-articles/hypothetical_results.htm

All the factors described in this article cannot be fully accounted for when publishing the results. That’s why every serious vendor should mark his results as being hypothetical.

Does this mean that the system won't work in real time?

No. It just means that you should be aware of the limitations of past performance results.

No serious vendor can guarantee that a trading system will make profits in the future, but professional development and thorough testing of a system increase your chances of making money dramatically.

Markus

 

[wally_]

Does this mean that the system won't work in real time?

No. It just means that you should be aware of the limitations of past performance results.

No serious vendor can guarantee that a trading system will make profits in the future, but professional development and thorough testing of a system increase your chances of making money dramatically.

Markus

Markus,

thanks for your reply. I do agree that no serious vendor can guarantee future results, however I am afraid that by releasing 100 copies of your system you might dilute its effectiveness. Now, I am concerned about it since I too plan to release some of my successful systems to the public, but will start with 15-20 copies of each in the first year and will release more only if I see that their performance is not diluted. I use these systems myself and would not like risking losing my edge.

I was also planning to show actual results of these systems, but now I see that this appparently might get me in conflict with the trading authorities...

Thanks again and good luck with your business.

Wally

 

[heasymo]

Wally,

I don't think you are going to dilute your systems performance by selling more licences.
After all, many famous traders explained their methods and sold their systems.
Think of Joe Ross with the Ross hook and A.Elder who explained all his systems in his first book only to conclude in the sequel that his systems still work after al these years and many thousands of sold copies!

Heasymo

 

[tradermaji]

Heasymo,

I believe mechanical systems lose edge if too many people are using the same system. The systems you are refering to are discretionary systems. They are open to interpretation and hence are not vulnerable to over usage. An example of a good mechanical system breaking down after over usage is I-Master. I was told that the floor knew about I-Master signals and were aware of the huge number of I-Master users. Thus, when I-Master triggered a signal, the floor used it to their advantage and faded it for quick money. I believe that I-Master has suffered terrible drawdowns and many have stopped trading it. I should not blame all of I-Master's woes to the over usage, but should blame the lack of volatility of the US Indices also.

Good trading,
Maji

 

[heasymo]

Well,if many stopped trading the I-master system after terrible drawdowns,
it's maybe a good time to start tading it again ! If the rules of the system are still valid that is..
Btw,Larry Williams also explained pure mechanical systems in one of his books.He traded them for many years and..their still valid I believe.

 

[J Mattson]

Heasymo,

I believe mechanical systems lose edge if too many people are using the same system. The systems you are refering to are discretionary systems. They are open to interpretation and hence are not vulnerable to over usage. An example of a good mechanical system breaking down after over usage is I-Master. I was told that the floor knew about I-Master signals and were aware of the huge number of I-Master users. Thus, when I-Master triggered a signal, the floor used it to their advantage and faded it for quick money. I believe that I-Master has suffered terrible drawdowns and many have stopped trading it. I should not blame all of I-Master's woes to the over usage, but should blame the lack of volatility of the US Indices also.

Good trading,
Maji

Magi,
How is the Coincollector system working for you?

 

[tradermaji]

I don't want to jinx it.

Please refer to the collective2 website for further information. All I will say that I am very happy with CC.

Maji

 

[leoneill]

CC60 real live result

Hi,

I've been trading the Coincollector60 system for real and automatically with Strategy Runner Pro since may this year. Started off with $7500,-, current balance $5400,-
Probable cause: The system misses a LOT of fills.

Greetings leoneill

 

[ivot]

Who does your brokerage house clear through leoniell?

 

[leoneill]

That will be Infinity Brokerage

Greetings Leoneill

 

[ivot]

That's rather suprising then that you aren't doing well then leoneill. I know that the developer Markus uses Infinity as his brokerage house. I've actually talked to the broker Markus uses and he says that his other clients who use CC are pretty happy with it.

My brokerage house clears through Alaron and I've had to stop running CC right now because Alaron has had problems its Strategy Runner server. Maybe Magi could let us know what clearing house his brokerage firm goes through. I'm thinking of switching from Alaron because their technical problems are messing up CC.

 

[JonnyT]

When I looked at Coin Collector I added in a few bits here and there for commission and slippage and the system looked too thin to trade in reality to me.

Of cource the more people that use it the harder it will be to get a fill without slippage.

JonnyT

 

[ivot]

When I looked at Coin Collector I added in a few bits here and there for commission and slippage and the system looked too thin to trade in reality to me.

Of cource the more people that use it the harder it will be to get a fill without slippage.

JonnyT

There's no doubt that commissions are a huge part of making CC work, but what are you referring to when you talk about slippage? All the fills in the ES are instant. Are you talking about a market hitting but not trading through an order and thus not getting filled?

In August I had almost the exact same amount of fills that were shown on the CC website. Becuase of server problems though, I wasn't holding positions overnight, positions were getting closed out early etc. This caused my results to be less then what they should have been, but I still made some pretty nice money anyway.

I wouldn't be worried about too many people using the system and everyone then starting to get bad fills. The people at Rockwell trading are keeping a close eye on the system and the market to make sure this doesn't happen.

 

[heasymo]

Traders who use the Coincollector are suffering from a massive draw down at the moment, I believe.
CC lost big time several weeks in a row..

 

[leoneill]

Correct!

I can update my balance report here for those who are interested and want a counter balance for those beautiful resultgraphs.
Started in May with $7500,- current balance $4100,-

But the drawdown of the system the lost couple of days are due to a strong trending S&P. And CC60 isn't working then.
But next to that.... It misses a LOT of fills.

Greetings, Leoneill.

 

[ivot]

Correct!

I can update my balance report here for those who are interested and want a counter balance for those beautiful resultgraphs.
Started in May with $7500,- current balance $4100,-

But the drawdown of the system the lost couple of days are due to a strong trending S&P. And CC60 isn't working then.
But next to that.... It misses a LOT of fills.

Greetings, Leoneill.

Are you using Andy's Open Bar System to help catch some of these moves when the market is trending strongly? This is a very good hedge system to use with CC. As I said before, in the month of August I had almost the exact same amount of fills as was shown on the system's website. Have you talked to Markus about your situation?