Plain Vanilla Options Trades.

[Profitaker]

so let me be blunt with you profittaker, grantx etc. . . we are not interested in these silly talks about deltas, volatility indicators etc. . . as Socrates pointed out. We are not

Fine. If it's all a bit too difficult for you just put me on ignore. Then you can carry on in ignorant bliss.

 

[grantx]

Polpolik,

The greeks – even Aristotle, Heraclitus and Alcibiades – are almost irrelevant where you’re selling naked puts. Fact: the potential loss is unlimited and one bad event will be catastrophic. Selling naked calls is one thing, naked puts are another. Avoid. You can still make money.

I'm surprised your broker lets you do this. You must be either very wealthy or is he desperate for the comm's.

Grant.

 

[stoic]

I would like to comment about the replies recieved so far, but unfortunately that would be a pointless exercise and also it would be playing into other people's hands.

However to you dbpheonix, the "we" is referred to the people who just want to study this thread following the original intentions of the thread start, and not have it sidetracked, derailed, graffitied etc. . . So sorry for inadvertently making you post in this thread, you should have been preempted by Socrates and not me . . .

 

[polpolik]

Polpolik,

The greeks – even Aristotle, Heraclitus and Alcibiades – are almost irrelevant where you’re selling naked puts. Fact: the potential loss is unlimited and one bad event will be catastrophic. Selling naked calls is one thing, naked puts are another. Avoid. You can still make money.

I'm surprised your broker lets you do this. You must be either very wealthy or is he desperate for the comm's.

Grant.

Well, I trade using Interactive Brokers and they do let you trade naked puts and calls with no reservations. I've moved to credit spreads though basically using Bull put spreads and bear calls spreads or iron condors but that's for another thread, I don't want to hijack Socrates' thread

 

[Splitlink]

I would like to comment about the replies recieved so far, but unfortunately that would be a pointless exercise and also it would be playing into other people's hands.

However to you dbpheonix, the "we" is referred to the people who just want to study this thread following the original intentions of the thread start, and not have it sidetracked, derailed, graffitied etc. . . So sorry for inadvertently making you post in this thread, you should have been preempted by Socrates and not me . . .

What you want is a blogsite, where Socrates, or anyone, posts his comments and there are no interuptions, no questions and very little interest.

 

[Crap Buddist]

What you want is a blogsite, where Socrates, or anyone, posts his comments and there are no interuptions, no questions and very little interest.

Thats a goody , Trade2win Member Blogs, to deliver just what you described, if the members do not want to draw any comments from members for discussion.

 

[charliechan]

given that writing puts is essentially a long market perspective, maybe it would be an idea to compare the results of buying calls at the same strikes?

surely this would demonstrate and prove the edge on pnl basis alone?

when any edge has been established, the individuals can then decide for themselves if that edge is worth taking given the different risk exposures between writing and buying. just because writing options may (or may not) provide an edge, that edge may or maynot be significant enough when the individuals psychological tolerance is taken into account.

im sure it would help settle this daft squabble.

stoic & socrates etc

i was hoping sombody could reply to my post quoted above.

i appreciate you do not wish to discuss any greeks, but i dont think a response would require one.

what we have seen to date is socrates ability to pick winning trades. i am sure i speak for many here at the skill required to pick such a number of consecutive winniners! well done socrates!

this is a great feat, but that is all this thread has really shown.

ALL THIS THREAD HAS SHOWN IS SOCRATES ABILITY TO PICK WINNING TRADES. i dont want to detract from such a feat. i am sure many will join me in congratulating socrates on this.

however, there has been little evidence to SHOW and PROVE the writer has the edge - thus my request above.

if we are to make a claim, then a comparison needs to be drawn up.

SO WHAT ARE THE RESULTS OF THE PUT TRADES AGAINST THEORETICAL LONG CALLS?

then, the individual can decide for himself which suits given the differing risk exposures.

once again, well done socrates, but to most here, you have proven a great skill in proving you can pick winning trades. you have not proved the original hypothesis in any way.

if i was to start a thread saying the s&p trader has an edge over a fx trader followed by a number of great trades in the s&p, all i have done is prove that i can trade the s&p well. i have proved nothing at all in proof the s&p trader has any edge whatso ever over an fx trader be it options, futures, warrants, cfd's spread betting, etc.

do you all understand my point?

will anyone point out where my fault in thinking lies if anywhere?

cc

 

[charliechan]

..also, to claim the buyer of the written options is a loser is rather spurious at best - without knowing the strategy or reason for buying them.

does the market maker lose EVERY time?

 

[PKFFW]

stoic & socrates etc

i was hoping sombody could reply to my post quoted above.

i appreciate you do not wish to discuss any greeks, but i dont think a response would require one.

what we have seen to date is socrates ability to pick winning trades. i am sure i speak for many here at the skill required to pick such a number of consecutive winniners! well done socrates!

this is a great feat, but that is all this thread has really shown.

ALL THIS THREAD HAS SHOWN IS SOCRATES ABILITY TO PICK WINNING TRADES. i dont want to detract from such a feat. i am sure many will join me in congratulating socrates on this.

however, there has been little evidence to SHOW and PROVE the writer has the edge - thus my request above.

if we are to make a claim, then a comparison needs to be drawn up.

SO WHAT ARE THE RESULTS OF THE PUT TRADES AGAINST THEORETICAL LONG CALLS?

then, the individual can decide for himself which suits given the differing risk exposures.

once again, well done socrates, but to most here, you have proven a great skill in proving you can pick winning trades. you have not proved the original hypothesis in any way.

if i was to start a thread saying the s&p trader has an edge over a fx trader followed by a number of great trades in the s&p, all i have done is prove that i can trade the s&p well. i have proved nothing at all in proof the s&p trader has any edge whatso ever over an fx trader be it options, futures, warrants, cfd's spread betting, etc.

do you all understand my point?

will anyone point out where my fault in thinking lies if anywhere?

cc

charliechan,

There is no fault whatsoever in your thinking. I, along with others have pointed this out many times throughout this thread. Do not expect an answer anytime soon. They have repeatedly ignored my posts regarding this issue as well.

Soc, CYOF et al(who claim to be the bastions of clear and proper thinking and the fount of all knowledge on all subjects) know that your claim is completely true and accurate. Therefore, instead of addressinig this point, they choose to yammer on about boats with cannons, bulldozers, clear thinking, THE TRUTH, and post stories that only "those in the know" will understand.

Both of them condone, support and participate in any off topic discussion that does not directly point out the flaw in this thread and then claim they will not discuss anything off topic if it does point out this flaw. Hence allowing them to conveniently sidestep any topic of discussion they do not have a ready answer to.

I agree with you that Soc is demonstrating an ability to correctly call market direction. I applaud him in this. However, as you say, this ability is not proof of his orginally stated hypothesis. He knows this, CYOF knows this too. They have decided to persist with the thread anyway rather than admit the idea was flawed and come up with a test that does stand some chance of proving Soc's hypothesis.

Soc has mentioned on many occassions he may do another thread about buying options. Will be interesting to see if he claims that thread "proves" the buyers have the edge over the seller.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[dc2000]

Socrates

Evidently both dc and profittaker have issued a clear challenge to you. The obvious thing for both of them to do is to match you on the call buys to prove you wrong.

So I am sure we all look forward to them taking on this challenge FROM THIS POINT ON and posting their trades.

May the best man win

Charlton

Post my trades ??? I thought I had been doing that for years on the appropriate threads
Challenge Im up for racing ferraris up the A1, if your suggesting I should take the same positions as Soc with call buys to prove the thread wrong then you are clearly not as intelligent as I had thought. I have already stated my opinion and voted as Soc asked.
The aim of my post was simple in order to show that one side has an advantage over another you need to show both sides and how this advantage is achieved.

 

[dbphoenix]

I agree with you that Soc is demonstrating an ability to correctly call market direction.

. . . online, on a message board. Without specific criteria. Or control of variables.

Considering all of that, great job.

Db

 

[Profitaker]

I agree with you that Soc is demonstrating an ability to correctly call market direction.

Unless the Puts have expired then it's too early to conclude any "demonstration". The market could tank between now and Put(s) expiry and Soc (I mean Bulldozer) could end up bankrupt.

 

[Charlton]

Post my trades ??? I thought I had been doing that for years on the appropriate threads
Challenge Im up for racing ferraris up the A1, if your suggesting I should take the same positions as Soc with call buys to prove the thread wrong then you are clearly not as intelligent as I had thought. I have already stated my opinion and voted as Soc asked.
The aim of my post was simple in order to show that one side has an advantage over another you need to show both sides and how this advantage is achieved.

dc2000

Agreed - it was a particularly crass posting on my part made after a night of over-indulgence.

I publicly and unreservedly apologise to both you and Profittaker.

I also acknowledge the valuable contribution you have made to T2W in the past.

Charlton

 

[CYOF]

. . . online, on a message board. Without specific criteria. Or control of variables.

Considering all of that, great job.

Db

Oh, and you forgot, it is all Textbook stuff :cheesy:

 

[CYOF]

Unless the Puts have expired then it's too early to conclude any "demonstration". The market could tank between now and Put(s) expiry and Soc (I mean Bulldozer) could end up bankrupt.

When you answer my very simple post#411 Mr Wizard or Mr Whoancallanyoneanythingtheylikeandgetawaywithitwithmods, someone might listen to what you have to ohh ohh.

Until such time, which will probably be never, I would take the opportunity to look and try learn, which means you will be looking and trying to learn forever :cheesy:

 

[CYOF]

Post my trades ??? I thought I had been doing that for years on the appropriate threads
Challenge Im up for racing ferraris up the A1, if your suggesting I should take the same positions as Soc with call buys to prove the thread wrong then you are clearly not as intelligent as I had thought. I have already stated my opinion and voted as Soc asked.
The aim of my post was simple in order to show that one side has an advantage over another you need to show both sides and how this advantage is achieved.

What a silly statement - you are beginning to sound more like dbphoenix every day

In order to show that the writer of puts, not the buyer of puts, has the edge, you must sell puts and see what the outcome is.

My 8 year old daughter even understands this statement, and she hasn't even started posting here yet, and will probably never do so, from what she is telling me about some of the posts she has been reading on T2W :cheesy:

Have a nice week.

 

[Splitlink]

What a silly statement - you are beginning to sound more like dbphoenix every day

In order to show that the writer of puts, not the buyer of puts, has the edge, you must sell puts and see what the outcome is.

My 8 year old daughter even understands this statement, and she hasn't even started posting here yet, and will probably never do so, from what she is telling me about some of the posts she has been reading on T2W :cheesy:

Have a nice week.

I was surprised that you have a daughter of that age, since I thought that that was yours :-0

Split

 

[Profitaker]

In order to show that the writer of puts, not the buyer of puts, has the edge, you must sell puts and see what the outcome is.

What a stupid statement. So tell me - if you went to a casino and won ten straight bets by betting the colour red at roulettle, does that mean the colour red has the edge in roulettle ?

 

[CYOF]

What a stupid statement. So tell me - if you went to a casino and won ten straight bets by betting the colour red at roulettle, does that mean the colour red has the edge in roulettle ?

I really do not have time this week, but here goes, for those who want to learn something of value, that is :idea:

It's all about having the spiritual ability to know when there is going to be 5 straight reds or 5 straight blacks, and then having the cash to place on the roulette table.

Doing this every night, and also the predicting the number of wins, has to be a special person?

Dont you agree, Mr Post#411 :cheesy:

The person doing the opposite to Socrates Will Lose - just wait and see :cheesy:

Socrates is going to show 13 Straight wins Not Ten straight wins.

The person doing the opposite to Socrates trades will Lose!

What do you call that?

An Edge or Luck?

Or both?

Then he might go on, and I say might, as I am sure he is getting fed up with all of these wins :cheesy: to make it 20 Straight Wins, and the opposite player will Lose All 20!

That will be 20 Straight Losses for the the loser and 20 straight Wins for Socrates!

Is that Edge or Luck?

Or both?

Then, he may even go on further, again, and make it 30 Straight Wins without a single Loss!

Now what do you call that?

I call it a mark of a genius, or to put it in trading terms >>> Trading Mastery.

You will probably call it lucky, of course, but as some of us already know, there is no such thing as luck, and especially in trading for consistent profits, which is what we are talking about here, and it just so happens that, the effect (consistent profits) will always be the same, under the same conditions, once the same cause( selling puts) is utilised :idea:

The Immutable Laws can be utilised to your advantage, as well as your disadvantage, which is what most people do, of course

 

[CYOF]

I have taken the unusual step of replying to a minion.

Since all proceeds go to charity, I would like to announce that I'll donate £ 10,000 to any charity of the winners choice, if anybody can find a winning trade posted by me on T2W. Or any losing trade posted by me. In fact, any trade whatsoever, posted by me, whenever, on T2W.

Thank you for being honest that you haven't shown a trade on here or at citybulls or tacticaltrader. You have saved us all a great deal of time looking for your trades. When do you think you will be doing things like Socrates, Dc2000 and Bulldozer, by showing some or a few winning trades instead of doing what you do best

Your above reply sums it all up :cheesy: