Plain Vanilla Options Trades.

[Splitlink]

How many times do I have to keep repeating that this thread is not about buying puts or calls ? How many times do I have to keep repeating this thread is not about the buying side of options, but about the writing side of options, and that the object is to conclusively show the Writer has the Edge over the buyer ?

I am not interested in buying puts or calls at all. I am not.

When you walk into a casino, before you buy your chips to play on roulette, or blackack or chemin de fer, do you ask the cashier if the casiino has sufficient funds to pay out in the event you win a lot as a result of several hours of gambling ? No, you don't...unless of course you are a mad gambler willing to stake £5,000,000 on the turn of the wheel, that is different.

So I cannot understand these obsessions you people have with asking the same silly questions all the time.

The object of this thread is as described at the header, at the very beginning.

If later on I decide to do a thread on exotics you may ask questions about that.

If I later on decide to do a thread on Futures you may ask questions about that.

If I later on decide to do a thread on Shares you may ask questions about that.

If I later on decide to do a thread about writing calls you may ask questions about that.

But please do not persist in asking silly questions for the sake of asking, and please keep this thread on topic, and please, May I have your vote, as to whether the Writer has the edge over the Buyer Please ?

May I ask you to follow the thread as it progresses without any further silly interruptons please ? Everything you need to know has already been explained at a very early stage in the development of this thread. Thank you.

It's not a clear cut answer. If the writer has the edge most of the time, it won't save him from the big one at the end. I'll guarantee that he won't be interested in options, after that.

If you can keep away from that big one, then I'll say that you are better at option trading than most of us.

Split

 

[SOCRATES]

Strictly speaking, I'm not sure that there is an (exchange traded) option strategy that mimics this profile.

Long synthetic (long call/short put, same strike, same month) ? . . . . nope. Unlimited gain, loss limited to underlying going to zero

Short synthetic (long put/short call, same strike, same month) ? . . . . nope. Limited gain as underlying approaches zero, unlimited loss to the upside.

But hey CYOF, we never stop learning eh?

So which category from the 4 would you put the 2 trades done, for example on the Nikkei:~

1. Sell (write) CALL ATM on the NIkkei and LONG PUT ATM also on the Nikkei ~ both on 3 - 6 months away with the same expiry day.

2. Write PUT ATM on the Nikkei and LONG ATM CALL with 3 - 6 months both with the same expiry day on both legs.

Is it category 1, 2, 3, or 4 ?


Think very carefully before you reply...:cheesy:

 

[SOCRATES]

It's not a clear cut answer. If the writer has the edge most of the time, it won't save him from the big one at the end. I'll guarantee that he won't be interested in options, after that.

If you can keep away from that big one, then I'll say that you are better at option trading than most of us.

Split

You cannot guarantee anything, because by your own admission you know very litte about this whereas I know much much more than you, and I am out to conclusively prove the writer has the edge over the buyer, not just once, but consistently.

If a Black Swan should think of appearing we have at least 48 if not 72 hours warning ahead of the event to prepare.....

If it happens on dry land we can count on the Maltese Bull to charge it in the groin with its horns.

If it happens afloat, don't forget I have a 74 gun warship at anchor nearby loaded to the gunwales with cannon balls ready to fire anytime is necessary...

And if it happens on rocky uneven ground even better, because we have the Bulldozer with a full tank of fuel, ready to scrape it off at a moment's notice as well.

So you must not concern yourself unduly. Just follow the thread and how it unfolds, as I am absolutely determined to show the Writer has the edge over the Buyer, period.

 

[SOCRATES]

"and that the object is to conclusively show the Writer has the Edge over the buyer ?"

We know what the writers written, but what's the buyer bought?

It's like to know light, we must see the dark . A comparison to measure one against the other, I think thats what a lot of viewers just want to see. I can see their points. I mean it wouldnt be a mis matching concept to compare a writers return against a buyers return,especially when demostration of edge writers V buyers is the threads purpose?

That is not my concern and is not on topic on this thread at all, except for the buyer to pay for what i write.

 

[dc2000]

CYOF

GFY = Go Find Yourself purely in a metaphysical way

 

[Splitlink]

You cannot guarantee anything, because by your own admission you know very litte about this whereas I know much much more than you, and I am out to conclusively prove the writer has the edge over the buyer, not just once, but consistently.

If a Black Swan should think of appearing we have at least 48 if not 72 hours warning ahead of the event to prepare.....

If it happens on dry land we can count on the Maltese Bull to charge it in the groin with its horns.

If it happens afloat, don't forget I have a 74 gun warship at anchor nearby loaded to the gunwales with cannon balls ready to fire anytime is necessary...

And if it happens on rocky uneven ground even better, because we have the Bulldozer with a full tank of fuel, ready to scrape it off at a moment's notice as well.


So you must not concern yourself unduly. Just follow the thread and how it unfolds, as I am absolutely determined to show the Writer has the edge over the Buyer, period.

I know very little, but it is just enough, thank you very much.

About the three days notice before the big one. It's a lot at stake to depend on being able to spot it. I think that this is the whole point, a naked writer can go completely bust if he gets it wrong. It's your money and it's up to you, 74 guns and all the cannon balls make for a lot of ballast, if you get holed first.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

So which category from the 4 would you put the 2 trades done, for example on the Nikkei:~

1. Sell (write) CALL ATM on the NIkkei and LONG PUT ATM also on the Nikkei ~ both on 3 - 6 months away with the same expiry day.

2. Write PUT ATM on the Nikkei and LONG ATM CALL with 3 - 6 months both with the same expiry day on both legs.

Is it category 1, 2, 3, or 4 ?


Think very carefully before you reply...:cheesy:

Anyone else feel that that wasn't Socrates writing that?
What makes Bull such a poor troll is that he makes absolutely no effort to diguise his writing style . . . anyway . . . .

Bull,I was merely musing that there is no such thing as "unlimited" losses in an options strategy, "very high, possibly unfundable" certainly. But "unlimited" . . . . ?

With regard to the first strat, you & me know that that's one half of basic market making (ie Joe 5 lot on his own not integrated IB passing a global vol book around) ie sell the middle, buy the wings for protection against an explsion, let a bit of theta kick in then roll out into the new atm, it's a trading strategy rather than a "leave-to-expiry" strat.
Taken on it's own (ie without the covering positions) and assuming you have the margin cover, it's a strat which, as I patiently explained using as few big words as possible, can always be rolled back and out (note the caveat about margin in that last sentence).

The second one (short put/long call) is a long synthetic, which, as I showed in the post to which you are replying (which either you didn't read or, as it was quite short and you quoted it, I surmise you didn't understand ) is actually finite downside (ie underlying cannot go below zero) unlimited upside.

When you've dug a hole, stop digging, you depriving a village of a perfectly good idiot etc etc etc

 

[charliechan]

Where and when do I start with you Charliechan, dear oh dear....

Did I say every employee is a mug or a tool for the conspiracy ?

No, I did not.

Now how can I explain this to you in public without letting cats out of bags, let's see...

Ok...here we go.....

There are many highly intelligent individuals working within intitutional frameworks. They are made to present themselves with proof of academic achievement before they can be allowed to join the institutional framework and for them to fill pre determined slots in it.

But you see in institutions there is an inherent culture. I know this because when I was very young and inexperienced I myself underwent this pervasive and subtle indoctrination.

But I was able to break free of it and stand on my own two legs and think for myself on my own two feet. To do this, I had to unravel everything I had been persuaded to believe and review and reconstruct all of it, if not nearly all........... in order to cross from one side of the glass wall to the other, in order to gain my independence and freedom.

What I am saying is that free thought has to be earned, it does not come as a package when you assimilate institutional doctrine.

Part of the institutional doctrine is to in part "miseducate" the encumbent to keep him prisoner in the service of the institution of his choice. Part of this has the effect of disallowing him to be abe to be independent. I am not talking of easy loans and bonuses and high salaries, as they are the price the individual accepts in exchange for his freedom.

I am talking of the intellectual aspect, which is the most important.

The intellectual aspect dictates the individual will be indoctrinated to beleive certain things operate in a certain way for a certain reason, either backed up by institutional practice or protocol or via a more insidious route involving classical economics and fundamental theories.

But in real markets which are alive and thriving and proactive these ideas, which are cast in stone, do not function properly, because that is all they are, nothing more and nothing less.

Therefore the individual who persists in clinging to these tablets is inevitably due for a series of huge frights involving information shocks.

It causes the individual to have a very narrow beam perspective and a blinkered view that is very difficult to shake off unless there is a genuine willingness to be truly open minded and to be able to accept the validity of reality as it unfolds, and this, for many people whose perspectives are overbalanced with preconcieved theory, is if not difficult, then impossible to shake off, I respectfully submit.

It causes them, against all the evidence laid in front of them, streaming in real time by the way, to be rejected in favour of the comfort of theories and of preconcieved notions.

It is as if these are hobby horses they are apt to cling to forever, unaware that the realilty is very different to the beliefs they have hereintobefore been accustomed to, and to which, against all evidence to the contrary, they desperately cling to.

well, that is all very well. but in life, there is the player, and the 'plaid'.

would you say your time as an employee was wasted time?
or were you learning?
when you were employed, were you blind?

i used to be 'employed' also. i just find generalisations dangerous.

 

[atters88]

How many times do I have to keep repeating that this thread is not about buying puts or calls ? How many times do I have to keep repeating this thread is not about the buying side of options, but about the writing side of options, and that the object is to conclusively show the Writer has the Edge over the buyer ?

I am not interested in buying puts or calls at all. I am not.

.............

So I cannot understand these obsessions you people have with asking the same silly questions all the time.

The object of this thread is as described at the header, at the very beginning.

If later on I decide to do a thread on exotics you may ask questions about that.

If I later on decide to do a thread on Futures you may ask questions about that.

If I later on decide to do a thread on Shares you may ask questions about that.

If I later on decide to do a thread about writing calls you may ask questions about that.

But please do not persist in asking silly questions for the sake of asking, and please keep this thread on topic, and please, May I have your vote, as to whether the Writer has the edge over the Buyer Please ?

May I ask you to follow the thread as it progresses without any further silly interruptons please ? Everything you need to know has already been explained at a very early stage in the development of this thread. Thank you.

Sorry, I'm confused. Were you replying to my post or, in your urge to respond, did you forget to read it?

First, I stated that writers have the edge in my second line.
Second, I did not ask you about futures
Third, I did not ask you about exotics
Fourth, I did not ask you about shares
Fifth, why is selling calls off topic?
Six, you seem to misunderstand my point about margin. I am happy to assume responsibility for the risks I incur. What I am saying is that selling an option ties up capital that could otherwise be put to use.
Seven, the thread is about writers having the edge over buyers. To assess the truth of this, you need to assess both of the offerings. Otherwise you do not know what the comparator is.
Eight, the two questions I asked (about margin and why buying a call would have been an inferior trade) are not silly. They are essential to determining which is more advantageous. See point 7 above.

So please, don't misrepresent or patronize me.

 

[A Dashing Blade]

Putting Mr Cynical hat on for a second . . .

1) Socrates is allowing Bulldozer to use his Tw2 account. There's too much schizophenia in some of his posts (as well as too many smilies)

2) Bulldozer is CYOF. This is not the same CYOF who orinally posted here (again compare writing styles).

3) There has been no justification of anything put forward by the Bulldozer/CYOF/Socrates camp and a total and absolute refusal to engage in debate.

Why?

What we have seen is trades that, so far, and I genuinely hope will continue to be, profitable.

Add this together with the hook about "we're member of an elite club" and "we know things that even the professionals don't" mystic crap and you have the perfect scenario for a sales pitch for some sort of investment club at a later date.

Or is that too cynical?

 

[SOCRATES]

well, that is all very well. but in life, there is the player, and the 'plaid'.

would you say your time as an employee was wasted time?
or were you learning?
when you were employed, were you blind?

i used to be 'employed' also. i just find generalisations dangerous.

No, there is the third dimension.

The third dimension is to examine what it is you are learning, and whether it fits at all with the reality of what you experience....to do this,...to be able to reverse engineer the fodder you are fed you have to be very far from blind...in fact you have to have eyes in the back of your head practically...why ? Because when you are employed you are paid to do a job....you are not paid to use your initiative to find your way out of an employee situation...you are indoctrinated (or rather an attempt or a series of attempts are made to indoctrinate you to accept certain protocols which may be very slyly disguised to ensure you remain an employee)...and additionally other tactics are used to try to anchor you down...such as bonuses...and loans...and cheap mortgages...and all sorts of enslaving committments to try to keep you there, on the treadmill.

But if you are able to think out of the box what you can experience later on has significance.
It takes time for that significance to have meaning...a proper meaning within the context of floating your own boat and not crewing on someone else's.

The trouble is, many individuals experience this, and if an when they leave, they try to apply what they have learnt and experienced as crew....which is useless if you aspire to be your own skipper instead of just a hired deck hand, is the best way I can explain it.

That is why you will find individuals firmly ensconced in an institutional environment are totally lost when they go solo and the institutional environment that nurtured them is no longer there.

 

[SOCRATES]

Sorry, I'm confused. Were you replying to my post or, in your urge to respond, did you forget to read it?

First, I stated that writers have the edge in my second line.
Second, I did not ask you about futures
Third, I did not ask you about exotics
Fourth, I did not ask you about shares
Fifth, why is selling calls off topic?
Six, you seem to misunderstand my point about margin. I am happy to assume responsibility for the risks I incur. What I am saying is that selling an option ties up capital that could otherwise be put to use.
Seven, the thread is about writers having the edge over buyers. To assess the truth of this, you need to assess both of the offerings. Otherwise you do not know what the comparator is.
Eight, the two questions I asked (about margin and why buying a call would have been an inferior trade) are not silly. They are essential to determining which is more advantageous. See point 7 above.

So please, don't misrepresent or patronize me.

Well, that is exactlly what it is you are trying to do to me, only that I wil not stand for it.

What I am doing, and I have already explained it, is very clear.

But what I am doing at the same time is not discussing methodology or edges, which is precisely what you would all like me to discuss in detail, and because I am not doing it and I will not do it, it serves to infuriate the inquisitors, simple.

 

[SOCRATES]

Putting Mr Cynical hat on for a second . . .

1) Socrates is allowing Bulldozer to use his Tw2 account. There's too much schizophenia in some of his posts (as well as too many smilies)

2) Bulldozer is CYOF. This is not the same CYOF who orinally posted here (again compare writing styles).

3) There has been no justification of anything put forward by the Bulldozer/CYOF/Socrates camp and a total and absolute refusal to engage in debate.

Why?

What we have seen is trades that, so far, and I genuinely hope will continue to be, profitable.

Add this together with the hook about "we're member of an elite club" and "we know things that even the professionals don't" mystic crap and you have the perfect scenario for a sales pitch for some sort of investment club at a later date.

Or is that too cynical?

You are beginning to be stimulated to post nonsense. For me to do that, I would have to allow Bulldozer to have access to this computer and to put things to you in his own almost inimitable style. I say almost, because in case you have not noticed, I am able to post in the style of other members when it pleases me, just for the sake of amusment.

This, by the way serves to annoy some members who go on to accuse me of having multiple nicks. You need not worry, as I am used to these unfounded accusations levelled at me on a regular basis.

I can assure you that Bulldozer is not CYOF. I can also assure you CYOF is not Bulldozer either, and that I am neither of them, and they are not me. There is only one of me and that is quite enough.

I am not interested in engaging in what you call debate. No. I am not. This is because what you call debate is not debate at all. It is insidious brain picking, and I am not here to have my brain picked. I am here to prove a fact, being, that the Writers have the edge over the Buyers.

There is no sales pitch anywhere. I am not interested in selling anything. I have stated this many times before on many occasions. But you are not the only member obsessed with this myth. There is no investment club. Investment clubs are for people who like to sit on committees. Committees are invariably consist of a group of people who sit down and begin to discuss...and to argue...and to place obstructions to each others ideas...and the ultimate result is that in the end...they all agree they can do nothing and that nothing can be done. That kind of rigmarole does not interest me in the least, in fact it bores me to tears.

For this reason there is an Elite 2.4S Club. The Elite 2,4S "Club" has an annex, The Star Chamber.The distinct difference is that this club and its annex does not suffer the problems that beset committees as I have described above, and for this reason, the membership is kept absolutely watertight, unapproachable and impenetrable.

You have to content yourself with results as you are not entilted to anything else.

This is like the face of a grandfather clock that makes chimes.

You may hear the chimes and see the hour hand and the minute hand showing the time, but you are prevented from understanding or witnessing the mechanism that drives either the chimes or the driving train that keeps the time, and that is the way it wil remain, as this is my thread, and my prerogative.

 

[SOCRATES]

I know very little, but it is just enough, thank you very much.

About the three days notice before the big one. It's a lot at stake to depend on being able to spot it. I think that this is the whole point, a naked writer can go completely bust if he gets it wrong. It's your money and it's up to you, 74 guns and all the cannon balls make for a lot of ballast, if you get holed first.

Ha Ha Ha, thank you.

 

[PKFFW]

How many times do I have to keep repeating that this thread is not about buying puts or calls ? How many times do I have to keep repeating this thread is not about the buying side of options, but about the writing side of options, and that the object is to conclusively show the Writer has the Edge over the buyer ?

I am not interested in buying puts or calls at all. I am not.

When you walk into a casino, before you buy your chips to play on roulette, or blackack or chemin de fer, do you ask the cashier if the casiino has sufficient funds to pay out in the event you win a lot as a result of several hours of gambling ? No, you don't...unless of course you are a mad gambler willing to stake £5,000,000 on the turn of the wheel, that is different.

So I cannot understand these obsessions you people have with asking the same silly questions all the time.

The object of this thread is as described at the header, at the very beginning.

If later on I decide to do a thread on exotics you may ask questions about that.

If I later on decide to do a thread on Futures you may ask questions about that.

If I later on decide to do a thread on Shares you may ask questions about that.

If I later on decide to do a thread about writing calls you may ask questions about that.

But please do not persist in asking silly questions for the sake of asking, and please keep this thread on topic, and please, May I have your vote, as to whether the Writer has the edge over the Buyer Please ?

May I ask you to follow the thread as it progresses without any further silly interruptons please ? Everything you need to know has already been explained at a very early stage in the development of this thread. Thank you.

Your stated aim of this thread is to prove the writers have the edge over the buyers. This is a dualistic proposition. You are comparing writers with buyers. Therefore, as has been pointed out, to determine if the writer has some sort of edge over the buyer then one must examine both.

Surely a man who claims to be such a fountain of knowledge and wisdom must know this to be true?

So all these questions are not off topic at all. They go to the heart of your own stated aim of this thread. If you do not wish to discuss these issues then restate the aim of your thread.

Perhaps you should state that your aim is to prove that you personally have an edge in writing options. Then your trades would prove this, no other questions would be relevant and you could happily post here and we could all stop expecting you to do what you claim you wish to do.

Cheers,
PKFFW

 

[ian]

What's happenin?

 

[CYOF]

What's happening?

Well Ian, I said I will not reply to you, but in this case I will, and I will try and shed some light for you.

Many will attack any thread that Socrtaes or I start - and then expect us to answer their off topic questions!

Any threads we start at T2W will go dead without our posts!

What does this really tell you?

And what happens when we join in another thread, like Profitakers thread The Options Edge?

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/showthread.php?t=17620&page=59&pp=10

The views just soar!

And then, what happens when we decide to stop posting in the thread?

The thread dies off!

Why is this, for all we are doing is speaking the Truth - no more, no less :idea:

You see, I have gone to great lengths to show all how the Truth will always triumph over Lies, and the Truth will always prevail, period.

People are attracted to the Truth, whether they like it or not, and this is why we always get the usual suspects like Dblade, Zupcon and Profitaker following us :idea:

They are not really out to try and derail the thread, even though they appear to be, for they are, like everyone else, attracted to the Truth :idea:

We have stopped posting as we had to hold a meeting of the Elite 3.4S Club to discuss the recent showing of how the Option Writer - NOT the Buyer - will always have the edge.

The mods here are not been fair, and have failed to answer simple questions that have been asked, like why are some members banned for posting in Capitals, whilst others are not even warned for posting, what we think is a very rude comment, like GFY, but we are not sure, as no one will tell us for certain, so the best thing is to call a halt and review the situation.


We have discussed the option of opening a new thread showing how to make Losses, as we are getting fed up with making Winning trades, for it is too easy.

Perhaps this will make everyone happier?

 

[the blades]

Many will attack any thread that Socrates or I start - and then expect us to answer their off topic questions!

Any threads we start at T2W will go dead without our posts!

What does this really tell you?
?

it tells me that you're deliberately provocative, and get exactly the reaction you crave.

I'm clueless about options, but it's clear that people are simply asking why any of this proves "writers have the edge", because it's claiming victory over the other side of the debate whilst failing miserably to explain why.

Socrates will probably succeed in proving an excellent grasp on market direction, and is posting substantive material - the lack of which many have criticised him for in the past, as he claims to be an expert. Well done for that.

You are again cluttering a thread, and leaving me (and surely many others) astounded at how you've developed from self proclaimed "clueless" to "a fountain of knowledge" in about a month.

UTB

 

[ian]

The 3.4s club ,eh....I had a 3.0s capri once!

 

[dc2000]

Any threads we start at T2W will go dead without our posts!

What does this really tell you?

And what happens when we join in another thread, like Profitakers thread The Options Edge?

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/sho...0&page=59&pp=10

The views just soar!

And then, what happens when we decide to stop posting in the thread?

The thread dies off!

unfortunately this just proves that many knowledgeable posters have left T2W for other pastures and the void is being filled by what can only be described as noise I really hope Sharky and the team pull something out of the bag soon.

Socrates will probably succeed in proving an excellent grasp on market direction, and is posting substantive material - the lack of which many have criticised him for in the past, as he claims to be an expert. Well done for that

Or time may tell that in fact Soc bought at the top, I am very surprised that Soc has got behind this idea of Bulldozers so strongly it suggests to me that all reason has gone out the window and has been replaced with the persona of a gambler

Could someone clarify if the special club is called 3.4s elite or 2.4s elite as the key members don't seem to be aware