Placing Stops

boydd_uk

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I finding it difficult to come up with sensible thoughts on where to place stops. I work better with pictures so I attach a chart of GSK, The red line is Jose's Interpretation of Elder's SafeZone, the purple line is the Chandelier indicator from Metastock. Needless to say they both point to different stops.

Problem is that depending on where to place a sensible stop would perhaps determine whether there is enough upside ratio against the possible downside. So not knowing where best to place the stop - means I'm not sure I should be in the trade or not.

Would appreciate views on placing stops, and thoughts on safezone vs chandelier stops.
 

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I cannot comment on safe zone of chandelier stops.

Concerning the stop placement you first need to determine what your objective is, a single thrust large or small, wave 1-3 getting out at wave 4, maybe wave 5 only or the entire trend. This should be defined before you enter the trade. You need to know what you are trying to accomplish before entering a trade so you can manage it to that effect.

I often will play multiple strategies within the same trade, that is entering with multiple positions with each position having a different objective. I will look how the issue is behaving before entering the trade. It is important to note the moving averages the issue seems to be respecting. We cannot see into the future but we can use the past as a guide. I like to set my moving averages to follow the lows, not the close in an uptrend. I may use a 10, 20, 34 and 50 all exponential, occasionally I will use others. With different timeframes I use different moving averages. It may sound counter intuitive but I use faster moving averages with the lower timeframes, slower with higher timeframes.

When you get a close below a moving average you exit a position. A quick move up then a close below the 10 is where I may exit my first position. This will help cover my costs without moving my stops to the breakeven point of the trade. I do not like moving my stops to the breakeven point because I find this area is often tested stopping me out. Taking profits at a close below the 10 gets me out on the first small thrust. My next exit is when the price crosses or closes below the 20, maybe a wave 2 correction assuming I was in at wave 1. For this example let’s say the 34 rides out a wave 2 correction but take me out at a wave 4 correction and so it goes. You get the idea. Each issue is different as well as the different timeframes and moving average used and objectives of the trade. Now I want to make an important point here. You need to be very aware of what the moving averages are doing and when they start to normalize. In a sharp reversal from a bear to bull market, versus a move from consolidation, the moving averages are going to act differently until they can normalize or in other words start to run parallel to each other. So this technique may not be useful in the first part of a trend. In actual fact I usually use other exit strategies in the beginning of a trend. In my opinion the initial stages of a trend are the most difficult and unpredictable, and toughest to manage successfully. This technique is also tough to use in a volatile market. The above technique is a simplified example but often very effective.

In a volatile market or a market that tends to move sideways for a while during a correction I may use a Fibonacci stop provided I am not going to give back too much of the move. Trend line violations are not much good in a market that likes to move sideways before continuing on. Other stops I may use in volatile markets are a percentage change of a moves pullback (not Fibonacci, your charting package should have this built in), or a statistical pullback based on the average recent pullback for that issue. A small average pullback may be 20 pips with the largest being 25, so I set my stop at 26 or 27. A larger pullback like a wave 2 or 4 may average 50 with the largest being 70. I will set my stop around 70. Again it depends on the issue, timeframes and other factors.

Linear regression channels can be helpful at times. These are basically statistical trend channels. 95% of the bars should close within the channel. Regression channels work well with consistent smoother trends but can be modified like using sliding parallels with median lines. An aberrant move once the channels are set may need to be accounted for, truncated moves within the channel also occur.

What you will notice over time is many of the different techniques you may employ will often get you out at about the same price. You will see a moving average running almost on top of a regression line or trend line, or a one bar stop exiting you about the same time as 10 moving average.

There are many different exit strategies. You need to be able to adjust to the conditions, objectives, timeframe, and issue. My point is one size does not fit all. Be flexible and alert to what you are looking at. You need to choose the tools/techniques which best fit the conditions being faced.
 
I decide how much money I am prepared to lose - check the chart and pick a price that if gets hit tells me I am wrong - size my position on that basis - then fire at will!
 
I decide how much money I am prepared to lose - check the chart and pick a price that if gets hit tells me I am wrong - size my position on that basis - then fire at will!

Normally it only takes one bullet but ill have 3 just incase the first shot misses, if the setup and confluance is there then its worth it for the 10R+ gains when you do finally get in on the move. Three strikes and im out though.

;)
 
I've had the most success placing stops at the lows 2-5 bars back from my buys at what looks like the best support level, then selling half my position at a certain profit target then moving my stop to break even and letting the rest ride until I get an exit signal from my system.
 
I've had the most success placing stops at the lows 2-5 bars back from my buys at what looks like the best support level, then selling half my position at a certain profit target then moving my stop to break even and letting the rest ride until I get an exit signal from my system.

I like to bag a 3R profit then close half and move stop to break even for the rest and then use longer term trend following indicators to keep me in for the rest. If the move is a fake out then normally there is enough momentum in order to reach 3R at least, then if the move reverse's then ill be taken out at break even on second half. But if the move goes as anticipated then it will most likely go on to 5+R on the second half before trend indicators signal exit.

Stops normally between 10-35 pips depending on which charts the confluence show on, if its 15min then smaller stops, 4 hours chart requires bigger stops. Normally place stops below the low of the move for buying +1pip +spread.

Ive had 60%+ accuracey with this system in my testing, still looking for improvements and the discipline not to trade the bad setups, "If only...". :eek:nline2lo
 
I've backtested strategies using chandelier stops and not found them to be very effective. Typically, the stop will be 3 ATR below the highest high for the last 20 days (for a long position), and 3 ATR above the lowest low for a short position. You can vary the number of ATR, but too small and you'll get stopped out early on a big trend, too big and you hand back too much profit. The method sounds elegant and intuitive, but I've not obtained good results.

I've not programmed the SafeZone method (it's kinda complicated), but it might be worth your while attempting this. The only way to become knowledgeable or confident with these methods is to backtest them to oblivion and understand the circumstances under which they work well, and those when they don't.

The principal objective of trailing stop methods is you stay on the trend and end up with some nice R multiple winners (10+). A few of these will make your year.. but you have to recognise that you will give some money back, that's the price you pay for staying with the trend.
 
I've backtested strategies using chandelier stops and not found them to be very effective. Typically, the stop will be 3 ATR below the highest high for the last 20 days (for a long position), and 3 ATR above the lowest low for a short position. You can vary the number of ATR, but too small and you'll get stopped out early on a big trend, too big and you hand back too much profit. The method sounds elegant and intuitive, but I've not obtained good results.

I've not programmed the SafeZone method (it's kinda complicated), but it might be worth your while attempting this. The only way to become knowledgeable or confident with these methods is to backtest them to oblivion and understand the circumstances under which they work well, and those when they don't.

The principal objective of trailing stop methods is you stay on the trend and end up with some nice R multiple winners (10+). A few of these will make your year.. but you have to recognise that you will give some money back, that's the price you pay for staying with the trend.

Speaking of ATR, I have also used AVERAGE TRUE RANGE TRAILING STOPS. I find AVERAGE TRUE RANGE TRAILING STOPS is great once the trend gets strong.

http://www.traders.com/Documentation/FEEDbk_docs/2009/06/TradersTips.html
 
I think the biggest problem with stops, is that so many put stops in the same place. I prefer to use a much larger than usual stop, and just use a smaller position size.
 
I use a couple of different stops:

1) CATASTROPHIC: My initial stop which is 1.5-2ATR away from my entry point. This should protect me against market noise and initial wiggles. I use this to size my position.
This stop will morph in to one of the following types as the trade develops.

2) TIME STOP: When I trade options, I give myself about 1-2 weeks for the expected move to develop. If it doesn't, I have either misread the market dynamics or they have changed. In this case, I either lighten my position (say 50%) or exit completely with a minor loss.

3) PREVIOUS LOWS: Similar to another poster, I've also noticed that a tick or two beyond the most recent 2-4 bar extreme allows you to weather a few congestion areas in a good trend.

4) THE "V" : For a long, I look for a 3-bar combination of a higher low (1), a lower-low(2), and then a low above the low of bar 2. I've found this allows you to track a major trend pretty well...the only issue is when there is a huge run up between 2 "V" formations, I'll usually split the difference to keep from giving back too much profit.

5) 3MA: I've also found if you use 3 MA which are multiples of each other (say 5,10,15, etc) they stack up nicely during a trend and closing price stays above/below the longest one until consolidation/reversal. I use the closing price rather than bar High/Low to keep from being shaken out. Normally I'll use this on a lower time-frame (trading on the daily means I'd use a 15-minute to 1 hour chart, depending on how sensitive I want it to be).
 
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