OctaFx: How a Dealing Desk Broker can cheat you with Automatic Slippage

[foix]

Is it pure profit you're withdrawing or initial deposit?
It sounds really ridiculous because for example with Нotforex, max withdrawal PER REQUEST is $10000, no other limitations. They're making scapegoat of AML policy and hiding under rules take out of thin air...

Profit.
I never had any problem to withdraw while I was loosing money, also for 15000€ withdrawals at a time.
I can understand a limitation PER REQUEST but a max 5000€ weekly limitation is totally absurd, especially if the Broker avoids purposely to mention it in his Terms of Use or web site.

 

[foix]

Moderator request:

I believe this makes it very plain to everyone that Foixx's case is atypical.

You failed to clearly the critical questions. Please allow me to repeat them...

Can you please lay out a time table for Foixx to withdraw all of his money as quickly as possible?
How many withdrawals for what amounts over what period of time?

 

[foix]

Another little 5000€ weekly payment is arrived today from the Broker.
80.000€ still blocked in the account since 3 months.
Seems that I will have to suffer for another 16 weeks - 4 months !!!

Maybe that the Broker considers my condition atypical due to the high amount of my withdrawal request.
Maybe that ****** has only a very little brokerage business, so that he has only clients with little deposits and therefore he's used to handling only withdrawal requests with much smaller amount.
This can be OK...no problem... a lot of other Brokers are specialized only in low deposits and low trading volume clients.
BUT....if this is the case.....****** MUST specify it in his Terms of Use or web site.

Why does he persist to promote in his web site: "Max deposit amount = Unlimited", "Maximum Trading Volume = Unlimited", and in his FAQ Section "****** does not limit the amount you can withdraw", and in his Customer Agreement: "the Company shall pay the specified amount within three (3) Business Days"....avoiding to report any other limitation.

As my case has clearly showed these statements are totally false, and he continues to lies......purposely !
And surely this is not a behavior of...as he claim....a reputable and honest Broker.....this shows that he wants only deceive his clients.

If I'd had the possibility to know his absurd 5000€ withdrawal weekly limitation, before my account opening, surely I would have chosen another Broker....and no problems would come out for nobody !

Really difficult to understand how ****** doesn't realize that if he persist with this misleading behavior, his reputation will be destroyed in no time....and this will not be a big deal for him !

 

[Brumby]

Another little 5000€ weekly payment is arrived today from the Broker.
80.000€ still blocked in the account since 3 months.
Seems that I will have to suffer for another 16 weeks - 4 months !!!

The way I see it is that you are still getting your money back albeit slowly. Frankly if this broker refuses to pay out what effective legal recourse do you have? You can huff and puff all over the internet and get some self satisfaction but that doesn't change the equation one bit.

 

[foix]

The way I see it is that you are still getting your money back albeit slowly. Frankly if this broker refuses to pay out what effective legal recourse do you have? You can huff and puff all over the internet and get some self satisfaction but that doesn't change the equation one bit.

And so you suggest to stay quiet and by thanking the Broker, that in all his generosity, he's continuing to pay me.....even if a little bit at a time...in a total of 7 months of waiting?

You said: "Frankly if this broker refuses to pay out what effective legal recourse do you have?".....I can't understand your question......I will have all the legal recourse of the world !....my trading activity was regular, I made profit regular ....the Broker has to pay my withdrawal requests in 3 business day, in compliance of his Customer Agreement....stop!
I would have no problem to win a lawsuit in this case....my intention is to try to avoid it, by leveraging on the importance of a good reputation for the Broker.

You have to consider that in September the Broker had stopped any payment to me without any reason.
After one months he started again to pay me only after my FPA Scam Alert thread, where he publicly admitted that the "investigation" against me was concluded (obviously this was an excuse... because no investigation starting was never notified to me) and that my trading activity had to be considered fully regular.
And this was a big first result for me, without legal recourse....probably without the thread clamor, nowadays i'd still be waiting without any payment.

Now I hope that the possibility of a FPA Traders Court guilty verdict (that would remain in his FPA review page with a dissuasive effect for new potential clients and so with a big damage in term of reputation...and consequently...business), could have some positive effect in order to have my money back much more quickly, hoping that the Broker wants to avoid to be labeled as a Scam, in front of one of the bigger forex traders community worldwide.

In my opinion if someone suffers an injustice, he must react, in any way, as far as he's able to do.

 

[foix]

A Forum member said:

"It seems like this happens to everyone who wants to withdraw money from them. Especially profitable traders. It is like their business model isn't suitable for paying back.

Isn't there any court you can file a case against ******? I mean this is obviously a fraud. Who knows why they can't pay you back at once. Maybe this is just a method to squeese any % of interest they can get from having so much money. Or they need to bring up that money every week? Maybe they are also doing money laundry?"

Unfortunately I have asked to the Broker in all possible languages to kindly provide some evidences of his, so much declaimed, e-wallets weekly payment limitations....but....obviously, I've never had any response.
Therefore I don't have any idea about the REAL reasons behind of this deceptive behavior.

Yes, I agree with you....since ****** avoids to specify these limitations in his Customer Agreement or web site.......and since he avoids to provide any evidence....in my opinion this conduct can be labeled as a pure fraud.

I was ready to start a lawsuit using a local lawyer directly in St. Vincent and the Grenadines, where the Broker company is incorporated...but the Broker has made very well his fraudulent payment calculations.....in fact an invitation to court cannot be made within the next 4 months, when the Broker, with his 5000€ weekly ratio, will have just concluded my total payments......and everything will be in vain !

For all these reasons I hope that the FPA staff will want to proceed with the Traders Court public voting, by hoping in a consequently guilty verdict, in order to provide at the very least, a significant reputational loss to this fraudulent Broker.

 

[foix]

The new Broker's answer:

Dear Participants,

****** cannot pay out foixx’s funds all at once due to certain limitations, and his discontent with the schedule we proposed to him doesn’t cancel out the fact that he is being paid.

Also, we will not sacrifice other clients’ withdrawals to be able to satisfy foixx, just because he pursued a goal of destroying our company’s reputation.

We cannot and will not tolerate any further accusations, like money laundering, fraud, or any other that would deem ****** performing any illegal activities.

We are a reputable broker and we will strive to maintain our untouched reputation, for which many of our traders can vouch.

We wish to thank the FPA community for their support.

Kind regards,
****** Rep.

 

[foix]

Dear ****** Rep, really unbelievable the arrogance of your approach.
Despite your total false statements... as my case as clearly showed:

......"****** does not limit the amount you can withdraw", and "the Company shall pay the specified amount within three (3) Business Days"....avoiding to report any other limitation....
and your misleading promoting for your potential clients:
"Max deposit amount = Unlimited", "Maximum Trading Volume = Unlimited"
......you pretend in any case to be on the right and that it's your right to maintain your reputation....untouched........you are the victim of all this calumny, isn't it?
Really incredible that a client that submits a withdrawal request in order to have payed back all his money AFTER YOUR FORCED ACCOUNT CLOSING without providing any explanation.......can have "problems" to accept a refund time table of 7 months......really absurd...isn't it?.....how dare he?!!!

AsstModerator......obviously ****** has avoided to answer to your request also this time....evidently he doesn't want some sort of impositions....he wants to follow his convenience in his payments....why should he be called to account of it to someone else?

The Broker said: "Also, we will not sacrifice other clients’ withdrawals to be able to satisfy foixx".......deepest apologies ****** for the inconvenience....obviously it's my fault !!!!....since I HAVE FORCED YOU to open an account with this high demands !!!

....and : "We cannot and will not tolerate any further accusations, like money laundering, fraud....".......sure....you are right ....I have to accept whatever you impose to me .....waiting only your convenience ....and without any complaint !

....and again: "......and his discontent with the schedule we proposed (shall read: IMPOSED ) to him doesn’t cancel out the fact that he is being paid.".......sure...this is the only important thing....no matter the 7 months of waiting....but ......then...... I have an idea....why pay me 5000€ a week......you can pay me much less if you want......you can do for example only 500€ a week for 160 weeks.....also in this case...."doesn’t cancel out the fact that he is being paid."

Leaving irony aside (I prefer laugh about it, than cry)... @asstModerator.....really....what does impede him to pay me a lesser amount in the future due to, for example, increment in his "certain limitations"?
Who can determine that, for example, 500€ a week would be not acceptable while 5000€ a week is instead acceptable (and so this event can't be categorized as a scam)?
And....basing on what ....someone could determine this limit .......between a fraud and a normal behavior of a reputable Broker?
The only reference point.....shouldn't be the Customer Agreement undersigned from clients during the opening account procedure?

I hope really that FPA will condemn this conduct, proceeding with Traders Court public voting....because ...on the contrary....I have a message for all the other "reputable" Brokers worldwide:

Dears Brokers, from now feel free to totally ignore the withdrawal requests amount of your clients. You can peacefully complete immediately, in compliance of your Customer Agreement, only a little part of them.......for the rest....no hurry.....you can do it as your convenience, also in a lots of months...no problems.....you don't have to "sacrifice other clients’ withdrawals".......this fact "doesn’t cancel out the fact that they are being paid"...........and, in the meanwhile.......be assured that your reputation of honest Broker will rest untouched because you will be right in any case........it's not your problem if you can discontent your - harder to please - clients with the - several months - schedule you propose (/ impose) to them !!!

In my view ....a similar pretension ....it's absolutely mind-blowing !!! .....no other words to define it !!!!

 

[foix]

A Forum Member said:

"I hope u do understand the difference between proposing and acting right? Cause if he is unhappy with the proposal, you should try to arrange a deal acceptable from both parties, not simply execute the offered deal"

In August, after my account closure and after the Broker communication about the 5000€ weekly payment, I tried to be collaborative and reach an agreement with him, and I proposed him a 10000€ weekly payment instead of 5000€.
****** didn't even bother to answer me (I remind to all that he has stopped to answer to all my email since 4 of August......this is the attention of this Broker towards his clients !)

Now I would like to reiterate this agreement publicly, in front of all the Forum Members, wondering me how could be the Broker reaction......will he totally ignore me another time?

Dear ******, are you disposal to reach an agreement with me for a 10000€ weekly payment for the next 8 weeks - 2 months ?
If Yes, we can proceed basing this refund time table on an agreement between both parts and not only basing it on a your imposition that I have only to suffer.....and I will consider this regrettable case as Resolved.

Please.....would you have this time a little bit more respect for me providing me a response about this proposal....even in case of your negative answer?
Thank you very much.

 

[foix]

Moderator said:

"******,

Does this mean that any client trying to withdraw more than 10,000 Euros will face similar delays due to the limitations of your payment processors? If so, I think this needs to be added to your TOS regarding withdrawals."

I would like to remind another time that I never had any problem to withdraw more than 10.000€ in one single request before my trading activity became profitable.
I attach again 4 withdrawal receipts of 15.000€ executed in March, April, May and June.....in the same day of submission....great efficiency !
Probably ****** has only to add in his T.O.S......"We have a 5000€ withdrawal weekly limitation but this is applicable only to winning clients that wants to withdraw their profits !"
And without any explanation from the Broker....never.....only silence.....what I have to think about the reason of it?

Maybe that he's only a fake ECN Broker that actually trades against his clients and consequently he doesn't want winning clients and, if it happens....he forcibly closes their trading accounts, without provide any explanation and subsequently....he makes their life impossible with their withdrawal requests.....without any regard....by stopping any contact as well.....since that.....anyhow....they will not be his clients anymore in the future....and so...no matter about them at all !

I don't know...this is only a supposition......but....what ...a mistreated client like me....has to think about in a similar situation?

******....I await hopefully your answer about my 10000€ weekly refund proposal.....now you have the opportunity to solve the situation in an equitable manner for both !.....Will you have the will to do it?

Really thank you to AsstModerator as well....for his effort, acting as a mediator in trying to resolve this my problem.

 

[foix]

The new Broker's reply:

Dear foixx,

Each time we referred to the limitation it was for you to understand that we cannot pay out all your funds at one.

We are doing our best to withdraw your funds in the fastest pace possible. 5k per week was proposed to have a fluid withdrawal schedule. However, when possible we try to send you amounts bigger than the initially proposed 5k. This is determined by the demand in withdrawals.

We wish to ask for your understanding.
And similarly thank AsstModerator for his involvement in this thread.

Kind regards,
****** Rep.

 

[foix]

Sorry ******, but I need a more clear answer about my agreement proposal.

Are you able to ENSURE me a MINIMUM weekly payment of 10000 Eur? (obviously you can continue to pay me more, if you will have the possibility)

Only if you can do it, there will be an Agreement between us and the case can be considered solved.
I await your new reply, hoping in a direct and clear answer.

 

[foix]

As usual ....only another little 5000€ weekly payment is arrived yesterday from the Broker.....75.000€ still blocked in my closed account.
Seems that he wants only to continue undaunted with his intentions, completely ignoring all my requests.

Dear ****** ....you have to understand that you are GUILTY, about this my issue.....from any angle we want to analyze the situation.

Hypothesis 1:

You wrote: "We typically process all withdrawals in one request, but in this specific case we had to ask foixx to submit several withdrawal requests".......(obviously avoiding to remark the critical point......you are paying me only one 5000€ request a week !)
So this means that my case is atypical and all the other clients can easily have completed their withdrawal requests all at once and with no this my 5000€ a week amount limitations (in fact I never had any problem to withdraw bigger amount, until I was one of your "loosing" and "well-liked" client).
I'm the only problem for you, is'n it?...in fact.... you wrote....."will not sacrifice other clients’ withdrawals to be able to satisfy foixx......", probably because you have already forcibly closed my account and I'm no longer your client....so no matter about my needs !
Well.....in this case....you are GUILTY without any doubt, because you don't have any right to discriminate me in this way, in relation to all your other clients.

Hypothesis 2:

At the same time, you contradict yourself, writing: "To clarify we never considered foixx’s case atypical.".....and...."It is not an uncommon practice to ask our clients to submit several withdrawal requests if it exceeds the limitation amount.".......(obviously avoiding to remark the critical point also in this case......repeat...you are paying me only one 5000€ request a week !)
So this means that my case is not atypical, and this is the common practice for clients that submits withdrawal requests with high amount.
OK...so this means that in this moment all of your clients can have completed only a 5k withdrawal request a week !....like me?
I really don't think so that it's the case (since....repeat.... I never had any problem to withdraw bigger amount with you before my account closure)......but if hypothetically this is the case........you are GUILTY as well, because you are purposely avoiding to clearly point out these very important payment limitations in your T.O.S., in order to inform your clients about what they have to expect, trading with you.

Because.....AsstModerator....your wrote: "****** Rep, Does this mean that any client trying to withdraw more than 10,000 Euros will face similar delays due to the limitations of your payment processors? If so, I think this needs to be added to your TOS regarding withdrawals."
....but seems that the problem is not for amount bigger than 10.000€ (since that I'm asking this weekly amount, in my agreement proposal)....the problem is for amount bigger than 5000€ ........and in addition...per week!....an even more serious problem......that sincerely...this appear absolutely not plausible for an international Broker....that prides himself in his website to have thousands of clients in more than 100 countries !!!

Dear ******...I'm not sure that you realize completely the impact that...this your ambiguous and non-transparent approach about my issue ....could have for your reputation, in front of all the private forex traders here.
The only way to go for you, is to try to close this regrettable case, by reaching an agreement with me.

I would like to emphasize it again:
Currently, you are paying me a minimum of 5000€ a week (Ok...there is the possibility that you will pay me more sometimes....but ...who knows?...as you said: "This is determined by the demand in withdrawals."......but in any case....I'm talking about ...the MINIMUM)
Instead of these 5000€ minimum, are you able to ENSURE me a MINIMUM weekly payment of 10000 Eur?

You wrote me: "We wish to ask for your understanding.".......in fact, since it appears pretty clear that you have some serious financial problem, that you don't want to admit....I already gave up to ask you all my money back in 3 business day, in compliance of your Customer Agreement......but...you have to understand me as well.....more than 3 months are already passed since my forced account closure, without any more contact from you ....until now in this thread, (thanks to the FPA existence!)....and therefore....I can't wait another 4 months to have my money back...every week with only a 5000€ request completed !!!....."I wish to ask for your understanding."....must be valid also for you !

This is my last and best offer that I can propose you.....(meeting each other half way ....from our opposite positions, I think that it's the fairest thing to do....for people that have the will to reach an agreement)..... and if you accept it, I will consider this regrettable case resolved.
On the contrary, I will ask to the FPA staff to proceed with my Traders Court Case, going ahead with the public voting...... because I can't really accept that you want only to impose me any sort of your new "invented" rules.....never pointed out before and in total breach of your current and valid T.O.S......only with an unacceptable arrogance, showed to me until now.....................sorry...but this is my thinking !!!

Please let me know with a clear and direct answer.
Thank you.

 

[foix]

Moderator said:

I have a simple question which I would like a simple answer to.

If tomorrow another client tried to withdraw €40,000 all at once, would that client be paid in installments or would the entire amount be processed and sent as a single payment? If there are circumstances which could lead to either answer being possible, please explain.

 

[foix]

The new Broker's reply:

Dear foixx,

You will receive a 10,000 withdrawal this week. We will do our best to ensure that this amount is being paid to you on weekly basis, so that your funds are paid out in most fluid and fastest way possible.

Regarding the Customer Agreement to which you keep refereeing it has been submitted for review to the higher management.

Kind regards,
****** Rep.

 

[foix]

Dear ******,
I'm almost moved...thank you.....this is the first time that you appear collaborative with me....and the most important thing for me was to be heard and not only ignored.

AsstModerator , as I said, since an agreement appears to be reached, in these conditions I have no problems to be collaborative ...me too.
Few hours ago I have received a payment of 10.000€ with Neteller, and ..... if ****** will continue to assure me this amount on weekly basis......on my part this dispute can be considered resolved.

I will post again in this thread only if it will be further problems with these payments.....I really hope that this will not be the case.
I will confirm with a last post when the Broker will have concluded all the refund.

Thanks again to AsstModerator and FPA all.... for all the help provided, in my opinion.....absolutely essential in order to solve this my issue.

 

[foix]

FPA Moderator said:

Hello ****** Representative,

You ignored my question.

I have a simple question which I would like a simple answer to.

If tomorrow another client tried to withdraw €40,000 all at once, would that client be paid in installments or would the entire amount be processed and sent as a single payment? If there are circumstances which could lead to either answer being possible, please explain.

If I don't get an answer by Monday, I will have no choice but to assume that ****** can only provide €5000-10,000 in withdrawals for all clients per week. If this is the case and I don't see anything added to ******'s TOS warning clients, I will have to place a warning on the company's review page to let clients know they may not have access to all of their funds.

 

[foix]

I have a theory about my case, but...repeat....it's only a theory (but it's for this reason that I have accepted a compromise about my refunds).
I suppose that the Broker acts as a pure ECN/STP in his MT5 and obviously his cTrader account, but probably NOT in his MT4 account.
I think so also because with MT4 he has only a, so called, "Micro" MT4 account....and he specifies in his web site: "Recommended for novice trader".
Probably he wants to reserve this kind of platform only to very little deposits and trading volume.
For this reason it's possible to thing that with this Micro accounts ****** may act as a Market Maker, keeping all trades in house, hedging clients trades each other and so.... avoiding to pass them to their liquidity providers.

About my case, probably something went wrong in his control procedures and no one employee had realized that my big accumulated positions was going into big profit......and probably he had avoided to cover these positions in the real market.
When they had realized it....probably was too late and suddenly they have forcibly closed my account and only in that moment they have been able to ascertain that he had lost a lot of money against me.
In my view....this is the only plausible explanation about his subsequently despicable behavior, with this "new entry" about their, never mentioned before, "e-wallets payment weekly limitations".

Obviously...one thing is to pay back to clients part of their initial deposits or their profits won with his pure ECN MT5 or cTrader accounts......all another thing is to pay me my profits won all in his Market Maker MT4 Micro Account....because all these profits...probably are practically equivalent of all his losses !!!
For this reason, maybe that his withdrawal limitation problem is applicable only to my case...... and for the same reason.... he has never specified it in his T.O.S..

In this case, the only thing that he must do for the future is to point out some limitation in use, max deposits and max trading volume relatively to his Micro Account in his web site and T.O.S., like a lot of other Brokers do relatively to their Micro Accounts.......and obviously...put a more accurate control to cover the risk, hedging the position in the real market, in case of excessive exposure in some pair position.......and more important thing for an honest Broker.......stop to continue to declaring falsely the ECN nature also of his MT4 account, continuing undaunted to report Max deposit: "Unlimited", Max Trading position: "Unlimited" also for it, like the other his accounts.

This is only a theory....but in my view and experience.....maybe the most plausible.
On my part I have taken the last ****** Rep answer as a formal commitment with me to refund me a minimum of 10000€ a week.
Only in this case an agreement is reached and I will have no other to complaint about this case.....I really hope that the Broker will maintain this commitment.

 

[foix]

The new Broker's reply:

Dear AsstModerator,

Apologies for the delay in replying.

A customer who places a single request of 40k should not encounter any issues with withdrawing.

What is important to understand is that the limitation to which we kept referring to in our posts allows us to withdraw a certain amount each day.

If withdrawals are in high demand we must act in such way that would ensure no delays, and fluid payouts. Consequently, that implies that we could ask a client to resubmit his withdrawal requests divided into smaller amounts.

As we already informed you, our Customer Agreement is currently being reviewed and necessary changes ought to be applied.

Kind regards,
****** Rep.

 

[foix]

"A customer who places a single request of 40k should not encounter any issues with withdrawing"
.....and therefore....for what reason I can have only 5000€...(...I hope 10.000€ for the future!)...A WEEK...if someone else, in this same period "should not encounter any issues" with a 40.000€ single withdrawal request?

It's pretty obvious that....as I predicted in my last post..... my case is absolutely atypical.
Yes......for all the other "normal" clients, could happen that the Broker (due to some daily e-wallets payment limitations, that could happen only "if withdrawal are in high demand" in some particular and specific days) asks them to split their withdrawal request in several lesser amount requests....but in any case ....this will be not a problem for them, because they will need a maximum of few days more to have their money payed back.....absolutely none of them will have to wait months and months to be totally payed, as is happening to me.

AsstModerator ....I think that the Broker will never admit that something went wrong in his risk control procedures, with my trading activity in his MT4 Micro account (that....I repeat...in my opinion ...it's not an real ECN account, but only a MM account) and that he has probably completely lost all the money that I won.....and so I suggest FPA to consider this my case as a pure exception.
....(Yes....I'm honest....I'm worried....or rather..I'm terrorized....because if what I supposed is correct and the Broker has lost money with me ......he will never admit it...and....if he continues to provide only this kind of evasive and inconsistent answers and you decide to put a warning in his review page....probably this could be lethal for his reputation ......and instead...it's in my best interest that he can quickly recover this loss, in order to refund my winnings, as much quickly as possible......and the 10000€ weekly payment agreement can be acceptable for me, in consideration of all these reasoning and circumstances.)
For this reason I think that you should give to ****** Rep the possibility to learn from this mistake, give him the chance to correct himself, in order to make my case....an isolated incident ....an example of what must never again be allowed to happen to other clients!
(....Dear ******.....have you noted that I have defended you?......remember it ....for my future weekly payments .....it won't happen again if you fail to honor our agreement !)