NFP and giddy markets

Hoggums

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Anybody else here think the barrow boys in the city are getting carried away with all the "good" news coming out over the wires?

Take non-farm payroll today - "only" 247,000 people lost their jobs in July so that's good news that sends the markets up 1.5%. Do people not realise that's 247,000 people & spouses/partners who are going to cut back their spending severely over the next few months? Not to mention the hoardes of people who gave up looking for work - so they don't count on NFP anymore.

I hear people on CNBC/Bloomberg announce "the recession is over" "V shaped recovery" etc. I don't see it myself. The numbers are still getting worse, not better. A positive NFP is good news. Anything negative means that the situation is worse.

Wake up people!
 
dont worry the markets will soon come crashing down again when people realise they have been bidding up a load of worthless junk!
 
Yup, quite exaggerated everything.

Greenie springs to mind when he was talking about Irrational Exuberance...

When did he say that, 96, 97 ?

Lol !

Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose, what.
 
an interesting thing that has happened today is it seems the old inter-market relationships/cashflows have broken down, currencies not following equities anymore and crude caught in the middle a bit with equities and dollar rallying together for the first time in a while, but bonds carrying on down...makes a bit of a change.
 
Apparently, the CS global risk appetite index is now in "Euphoria" territory. It was last there in Nov 2007 and has retraced from the "Panic" levels at the fastest rate since the Oct 1987 crash. Next official stage on the index is "Irrational Exuberance".
 
I'm sticking with what I feel to be true in my gut.

It'll all end in tears.

This false manipulation only delays much bigger events in the future.
 
Agree with CV. I'm building up a short position here. I'm hedging it out with some options because who knows how long this party will last. But from the lows in March there's been no notable pullback. It's gonna happen - and the longer and higher it goes the bigger that pullback will be.
 
What always troubles me is that you have to swim against the 'zeitgeist rip' in order to find any opinion in the meeja versus these numbers being "good". 70% of the US economy relies on consumer spending and if you ain't working you ain't spending...much. 34 million Americans receive "food stamps", 34 million...:eek:

I'm sure our US cousins can shed more light on how unemployment works in the US but what has occured over the past 12 months is a tacit acceptance by the US admin that the States has a huge permanently unemployable problem. What these latest figures do not illustrate is the amount of unemployed folk that have simply given up and will not be entitled to anything. The largest economy on the planet has lost close on 8 million jobs inside the past 18 months and folks' hours have been reduced to an average 33 from 39-40 in order to keep them in work....it's so FUBAR and yet the denial is palpable. I swear most folk you meet in the UK really think IT is all over, and why not given the constant diet of denial fed by the moguls, or govt. controlled media suspect outlets...


Here's one dissenting voice amongst the 88 news results (so far) on Google news that view it as positive...


For good news about jobs, you need to look elsewhere in Friday's numbers.


DAYTON, Ohio -- On Friday, the unemployment rate shrank for the first time in over a year, down modestly to 9.4% from 9.5%.

That's the bad news. It sank only because people gave up on the job market at an even faster rate than jobs were lost. Beneath the headline number, most strikingly, 247,000 jobs were still lost in July and the 9.4% figure does not represent an improving job market at all.

Psychologically, it's a big deal, another sign that the worst has passed. Much of economics is about confidence and psychology, so there's some reason to see the report as positive. Economists had expected the rate to increase to 9.6%. A miss of 0.2% is not that wide, but it seems everyone had just forgotten that even with a general downward trend, it's possible to have a positive number. The Bureau of Labor Statistics was careful not to overplay it, noting merely that the unemployment rate was "little changed for the second consecutive month."

Most importantly, the unemployment rate fell because of a statistical quirk: 247,000 jobs were lost, but an even greater number of people left the "labor force" using the government definitions. Since unemployment only measures the "labor force," a shrinking force perversely produces a positive number. A shrinking labor force is not a positive, especially since, as noted by Millan Mulraine, an economist with TD Securities, it shrank because discouraged unemployed workers appeared to have left in droves in July.

Even worse, the Economic Policy Institute highlights that the number of workers who have been unemployed for over six months increased by 584,000 to 5 million.

So, 584,000 people fall into long-term unemployment. For regular unemployment, 247,000 jobs were lost and 422,000 people left the labor force altogether, but since the latter number is larger, the rate "improves." That's why the 9.4% rate is the bad news.


Bad News: Unemployment Falls To 9.4% - Forbes.com
 
Completed V shapes are as rare as hens teeth....longer time frames of course...and from a purely technical stand point i'd rather back against it than for it.
 
I can't believe the way the markets have reacted to the NFP today.
'. . ."only" 247,000 people lost their jobs in July so that's good news that sends the markets up 1.5%. Do people not realise that's 247,000 people & spouses/partners who are going to cut back their spending severely over the next few months?'
The even bigger "only" is that 247k figure is a mere 28k better than expectations. Therefore, there is an argument to suggest today's rally is all down to 28,001 U.S. citizens clinging on to their jobs! Can someone please tell me I've got this very wrong - coz' it's not making much sense to me at all!
Tim.
 
I can't believe the way the markets have reacted to the NFP today.
'. . ."only" 247,000 people lost their jobs in July so that's good news that sends the markets up 1.5%. Do people not realise that's 247,000 people & spouses/partners who are going to cut back their spending severely over the next few months?'
The even bigger "only" is that 247k figure is a mere 28k better than expectations. Therefore, there is an argument to suggest today's rally is all down to 28,001 U.S. citizens clinging on to their jobs! Can someone please tell me I've got this very wrong - coz' it's not making much sense to me at all!
Tim.

I agree the FTSE hardly budged.. the S&P went off like a rocket... currencies went the other way !!...

Its like a massive bunch of people just bought equities ... at the wrong moment...

Certainly a very odd reaction...

I smell a FISH....
 
Look at this graph...

usjobs.jpg


See how the last 3 recessions were the longest - and each subsequent one got longer.

Given how deep this one is - it doesn't bode well for a quick recovery at all.
 
Glad I'm not the only one who feels like this. I'm in the Energy markets, and it's inredible how detached the market has become from the fundamentals.

We just seem to be following stock markets. I think the market has the feeling of not wanting to 'miss the boat'. Any piece of news that can be twisted in any way to be bullish is.

It's all getting a bit too much to take! I'm just ignoring fundamentals now and waiting for charts to give me signals.
 
I don't see what the issue is here and most of the comments are along the lines of
"The Market is Wrong"

Well I learned very early on that the market is never wrong and always right regardless of opinion.


Paul
 
Paul I think that is actually a first class point you make.

Having a fundamental opinion is one thing, but should not have anything to do with ones trading.

Of course everybody with half a brain should have realized that the first Dot Com bubble based on companies without profits was one gigantic Potemkin village, but that should not have stopped any pro from riding their price explosions all the way to the top.

Was it Keynes who quite correctly remarked that markets can remain irrational far longer than your account can survive.

Trading wise it's best to make like a Zen practioner: have no judgements, have no bias, just be, and just act on what is, not on what should be according to your opinion.

Zen-garten.gif
 
I don't see what the issue is here and most of the comments are along the lines of
"The Market is Wrong"

Well I learned very early on that the market is never wrong and always right regardless of opinion.


Paul

well i firmly sit in george soros camp on this one, markets ARE wrong.
 
Agree with CV. I'm building up a short position here. I'm hedging it out with some options because who knows how long this party will last. But from the lows in March there's been no notable pullback. It's gonna happen - and the longer and higher it goes the bigger that pullback will be.

i would honestly wait till a 50% retracement of the enitre down move before loading the boat short..this is where i believe the party will end
 
Paul I think that is actually a first class point you make.

Having a fundamental opinion is one thing, but should not have anything to do with ones trading.

Of course everybody with half a brain should have realized that the first Dot Com bubble based on companies without profits was one gigantic Potemkin village, but that should not have stopped any pro from riding their price explosions all the way to the top.

Was it Keynes who quite correctly remarked that markets can remain irrational far longer than your account can survive.

Trading wise it's best to make like a Zen practioner: have no judgements, have no bias, just be, and just act on what is, not on what should be according to your opinion.

I'd agree with Paul and yourself. If I traded on emotions and opinion I'd be out of a job by now.

That said, I still think it's possible to detach from my day to day trading job, rules and methods, and still have a 'man on the street' opinion / chat about these crazy markets. Obviously the market is never wrong (pardon the cliche), but I'm still entitled to be perplexed as to why it's going up on a fundamental basis.

Good trading everyone.
 
I don't see what the issue is here and most of the comments are along the lines of
"The Market is Wrong"

Well I learned very early on that the market is never wrong and always right regardless of opinion.


Paul

Could'nt agree more.

For three years here we had to suffer the calls for a top on the Dow and all the talk of crashes....well it happened eventually ...but the point is...we could see it in an overall sense being built up in the price action.

I think this thread is saying that prices are out of kilter with reality and their relationships with each other...not specifically saying ...this is the top / bottom... trade it...but just to be ready in a general sense for any opportunities that present.

cheers cv
 
With all due respect 'Trader333', there is one very important index, one that is not 'subjective' or a lagging indicator or dependent on any NFP consumer spending house prices etc etc. That index is the
'Baltic Dry Index', which tracks INTERNATIONAL DRY BULK shipping WORLDWIDE. This index gives the cost of moving major raw materials accross the major shipping routes. The index reached a record level of 11000 in May 2008, by Dec 2008 it had fallen more than 94% to 660. It is currently at 2000 and is stuck within range 1800-3000. So until this index shows significent uptrend the world economy is going nowhere. Eddyjo
 
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