Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
the wear and tear of market shakes
best soccer shakes - YouTube
When you play the chart game, and even more with real money in the markets, you have to be prepared for the wear and tear of the market shakes: you go long, and it goes down - you go short, and it goes up... and it gets away from you, despite all your plans.
Just as in soccer shakes, you get exhausted, and, after a given amount of shakes (or even just one), you will lose your objectivity, and anger will soon hamper your trading skills.
The cure is to wait. As I said in previous posts, the answer is not to neutralize your feelings and emotions. It is much easier to take a break. On the chart game, it takes me about 10 minutes to get over a shake, each and every time.
But before you can do so, you have to be aware of what exactly the problem is. Indeed, you might not even recognize the anger in you, and realize that it is interfering with your trading.
Anger not just for a loss, but also for a missed opportunity. In a similar way, you're also affected by wins (euphoria and recklessness), although this is not caused by shakes - the exact opposite. Failure and success both interfere with your objectivity.
best soccer shakes - YouTube
When you play the chart game, and even more with real money in the markets, you have to be prepared for the wear and tear of the market shakes: you go long, and it goes down - you go short, and it goes up... and it gets away from you, despite all your plans.
Just as in soccer shakes, you get exhausted, and, after a given amount of shakes (or even just one), you will lose your objectivity, and anger will soon hamper your trading skills.
The cure is to wait. As I said in previous posts, the answer is not to neutralize your feelings and emotions. It is much easier to take a break. On the chart game, it takes me about 10 minutes to get over a shake, each and every time.
But before you can do so, you have to be aware of what exactly the problem is. Indeed, you might not even recognize the anger in you, and realize that it is interfering with your trading.
Anger not just for a loss, but also for a missed opportunity. In a similar way, you're also affected by wins (euphoria and recklessness), although this is not caused by shakes - the exact opposite. Failure and success both interfere with your objectivity.
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Latest practice file:
View attachment chartgame.com_practice_results.xls
I have been prudent not to declare victory too soon, but it's now clear - after being profitable for 8 days in a row -that I've learned to be profitable at the chart game, which is not a small thing:
(summary picture of the past results)
Of course now I will keep working on it, to see if I can make more, and especially if I can make money with different setups. But I am getting ready for the step of taking the chart game (daily charts from unknown stocks) skills and using them on real daily charts from the futures I know so well.
One thing is clear: it wears me out. After about 5 games, I am tired and after 10, I must stop for the day (I make several calls on each game, with total focus, just as if it were real money - i used to play the strategy game Risk the same way).
For some reason, I have to take a 10 minutes break after:
1) winning a game
2) losing a game
3) missing profit in a game (whether I won or lost overall)
4) arguing with someone
And I absolutely have to stop for the day after I've played about 10 games.
...
I wrote "arguing with someone", but there's a lot more and it'd be useful to write down a long list of all these things that unsettle me and adversely affect my trading (unless I take a break between the event/emotion and the trade)... or even better - let's group them by categories:
1) events from trading (winning, losing, missing profit): 33%
2) events produced by interaction with external actors: people/animals/objects that affect my mind/body (from someone insulting me to a mosquito bite to raining): 33%
3) problems/worries from merely my condition of being a human being (physical/mental decay, and related): 33%
I don't think I left any category out so no potential event should be left out either.
What I have to learn is how much time it takes my mind to recover and find the necessary balance again, after it is disturbed by one of these events and ensuing emotion.
I have to get used, in trading and in real life, that after an unsettling event, I have to wait, to take time off, to recover the optimal balance for decision-making.
...
I have noticed something interesting regarding balance and external factors. Say you are walking in the street and you look at someone, make them uncomfortable, or viceversa... well, you often hear their rubber soles scratching the sidewalk, usually once. That's because you made them (or they made you) lose their balance, and their mind was distracted just long enough to shift the focus from their walking just long enough to put their foot in a different position, not the ideal one. Basically the way you walk is affected by your thoughts. I am not necessarily talking about the fact that if you see someone threatening you want to get away from them. I am just talking about how you position your feet, even if you were to see a hot woman, who is not threatening you at all.
This type of thing is almost imperceptible in real life, but in (discretionary) trading it makes the difference between a win and a loss.
You have to train yourself to hear yourself losing your balance, just as you hear your shoes walking differently on the sidewalk. You have to train yourself, in all situations, to observe yourself in the present, and detect whether someone/something is unsettling you and will adversely affect your choices.
Someone could be yelling at you: best reaction is being quiet (and if possible to walk away), but instead your reaction might be to raise your voice as well.
Someone could be standing too close to you and making you uncomfortable: best answer is to walk away, not to befriend them or allow them to to disturb you, which you might do out of politeness or fear.
Someone could be arguing that you're wrong about something: the best reaction is to let them have their way and screw your pride. Spending the next two hours frustrated, arguing against him, is usually not the right reaction. The same applies to arguing against the market, by doubling up on a losing trade. Usually it is not the best reaction, but your ego, and unsettled mind, that's lost its balance, might make you do that. That's why you have to spot early on any signs of emotions that might affect your choices adversely. Even better, you should stay away from situations that produce those emotions.
View attachment chartgame.com_practice_results.xls
I have been prudent not to declare victory too soon, but it's now clear - after being profitable for 8 days in a row -that I've learned to be profitable at the chart game, which is not a small thing:
(summary picture of the past results)
Of course now I will keep working on it, to see if I can make more, and especially if I can make money with different setups. But I am getting ready for the step of taking the chart game (daily charts from unknown stocks) skills and using them on real daily charts from the futures I know so well.
One thing is clear: it wears me out. After about 5 games, I am tired and after 10, I must stop for the day (I make several calls on each game, with total focus, just as if it were real money - i used to play the strategy game Risk the same way).
For some reason, I have to take a 10 minutes break after:
1) winning a game
2) losing a game
3) missing profit in a game (whether I won or lost overall)
4) arguing with someone
And I absolutely have to stop for the day after I've played about 10 games.
...
I wrote "arguing with someone", but there's a lot more and it'd be useful to write down a long list of all these things that unsettle me and adversely affect my trading (unless I take a break between the event/emotion and the trade)... or even better - let's group them by categories:
1) events from trading (winning, losing, missing profit): 33%
2) events produced by interaction with external actors: people/animals/objects that affect my mind/body (from someone insulting me to a mosquito bite to raining): 33%
3) problems/worries from merely my condition of being a human being (physical/mental decay, and related): 33%
I don't think I left any category out so no potential event should be left out either.
What I have to learn is how much time it takes my mind to recover and find the necessary balance again, after it is disturbed by one of these events and ensuing emotion.
I have to get used, in trading and in real life, that after an unsettling event, I have to wait, to take time off, to recover the optimal balance for decision-making.
...
I have noticed something interesting regarding balance and external factors. Say you are walking in the street and you look at someone, make them uncomfortable, or viceversa... well, you often hear their rubber soles scratching the sidewalk, usually once. That's because you made them (or they made you) lose their balance, and their mind was distracted just long enough to shift the focus from their walking just long enough to put their foot in a different position, not the ideal one. Basically the way you walk is affected by your thoughts. I am not necessarily talking about the fact that if you see someone threatening you want to get away from them. I am just talking about how you position your feet, even if you were to see a hot woman, who is not threatening you at all.
This type of thing is almost imperceptible in real life, but in (discretionary) trading it makes the difference between a win and a loss.
You have to train yourself to hear yourself losing your balance, just as you hear your shoes walking differently on the sidewalk. You have to train yourself, in all situations, to observe yourself in the present, and detect whether someone/something is unsettling you and will adversely affect your choices.
Someone could be yelling at you: best reaction is being quiet (and if possible to walk away), but instead your reaction might be to raise your voice as well.
Someone could be standing too close to you and making you uncomfortable: best answer is to walk away, not to befriend them or allow them to to disturb you, which you might do out of politeness or fear.
Someone could be arguing that you're wrong about something: the best reaction is to let them have their way and screw your pride. Spending the next two hours frustrated, arguing against him, is usually not the right reaction. The same applies to arguing against the market, by doubling up on a losing trade. Usually it is not the best reaction, but your ego, and unsettled mind, that's lost its balance, might make you do that. That's why you have to spot early on any signs of emotions that might affect your choices adversely. Even better, you should stay away from situations that produce those emotions.
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
It is not about "self-sabotage" at all
You see, what people don't get, when they keep talking about self-sabotage in trading is that it doesn't work like that at all. As I said in my previous posts, your decision skills get unsettled not just by losses but also by wins (I require an estimated 10 minutes on the chart game to recover from both loss and wins).
So this is the way it actually works, and why you lose your capital after excellent results and performances.
1) you win, and you keep trading
2) you get excited, euphoric, lose control
3) you lose and get desperate, and keep trading
4) you blow out your account
Loss is bad, missed profit is almost as bad, wins are also bad, but nothing is as bad as being unsettled by a big win, keep trading, losing and adding to it anger... you get my point.
"Self-sabotage" is not an issue at all: there is nothing inside plotting to make you fail. It just so happens that when you win, you lose your balance, just as you do when you lose, and when you miss a profitable trading opportunity.
The way to avoid all these instances of losing your emotional and mental balance is to wait the necessary period of time (in order to get balanced again), after these events happen.
You see, what people don't get, when they keep talking about self-sabotage in trading is that it doesn't work like that at all. As I said in my previous posts, your decision skills get unsettled not just by losses but also by wins (I require an estimated 10 minutes on the chart game to recover from both loss and wins).
So this is the way it actually works, and why you lose your capital after excellent results and performances.
1) you win, and you keep trading
2) you get excited, euphoric, lose control
3) you lose and get desperate, and keep trading
4) you blow out your account
Loss is bad, missed profit is almost as bad, wins are also bad, but nothing is as bad as being unsettled by a big win, keep trading, losing and adding to it anger... you get my point.
"Self-sabotage" is not an issue at all: there is nothing inside plotting to make you fail. It just so happens that when you win, you lose your balance, just as you do when you lose, and when you miss a profitable trading opportunity.
The way to avoid all these instances of losing your emotional and mental balance is to wait the necessary period of time (in order to get balanced again), after these events happen.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Rains Down In Africa (lyrics edition) - YouTube
As I said in previous posts, the emotional impact of events in the chart game (wins, losses, missed profits), is about one five hundredth of events in real trading. Well, now i can put it into practice, because in the last 48 hours I had some pretty big wins in real trading (won't mention how much or it will affect me even more), more or less equivalent to what I do every day in the chart game. So, given that I take 24 hours off, after a day of wins at the chart game (or else if I keep playing I lose), this would mean that I would now have to take 500 days off... so my calculations are slightly wrong in this case.
Let's see. I think I will need about 1 week off to recover from the excitement produced by these wins. So in this case I could say that the impact is about one fifth, relative to real trading.
In other cases, like for a loss, I can forget it with 10 minutes, whereas in real trading, that takes me several days, once again, so in that case the ratio of 1 to 500 is about right.
Let's just say that the ratio chart game to real trading goes from 1 to 5 in some cases, to other cases where it is 1 to 500. At any rate, we can say the impact from winning or losing a game is similar emotionally, but it is on a smaller scale, without any doubts.
Very interesting comparison.
By the way, today was my tenth straight day of profitability on the chart game:
View attachment chartgame.com_practice_results.xls
15 %
2 %
33 %
61 %
29 %
29 %
39 %
35 %
30 %
30 %
But I am still not where I want to be, in terms of self-control. I still get mad if I lose, or if I miss profit, and very mad if I turn profit into a loss.
And I still do not implement all the stoplosses I decide to implement, so there's still a lot of practice that could benefit me. I mean like months of practice.
Great exercise.
As I said in previous posts, the emotional impact of events in the chart game (wins, losses, missed profits), is about one five hundredth of events in real trading. Well, now i can put it into practice, because in the last 48 hours I had some pretty big wins in real trading (won't mention how much or it will affect me even more), more or less equivalent to what I do every day in the chart game. So, given that I take 24 hours off, after a day of wins at the chart game (or else if I keep playing I lose), this would mean that I would now have to take 500 days off... so my calculations are slightly wrong in this case.
Let's see. I think I will need about 1 week off to recover from the excitement produced by these wins. So in this case I could say that the impact is about one fifth, relative to real trading.
In other cases, like for a loss, I can forget it with 10 minutes, whereas in real trading, that takes me several days, once again, so in that case the ratio of 1 to 500 is about right.
Let's just say that the ratio chart game to real trading goes from 1 to 5 in some cases, to other cases where it is 1 to 500. At any rate, we can say the impact from winning or losing a game is similar emotionally, but it is on a smaller scale, without any doubts.
Very interesting comparison.
By the way, today was my tenth straight day of profitability on the chart game:
View attachment chartgame.com_practice_results.xls
15 %
2 %
33 %
61 %
29 %
29 %
39 %
35 %
30 %
30 %
But I am still not where I want to be, in terms of self-control. I still get mad if I lose, or if I miss profit, and very mad if I turn profit into a loss.
And I still do not implement all the stoplosses I decide to implement, so there's still a lot of practice that could benefit me. I mean like months of practice.
Great exercise.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
I updated my index.html:
View attachment index.html
View attachment index.html
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
I am going to state one more time the importance of waiting after unsettling events, and i added it in my index.html as well. This is important, just as I was thinking this morning when I woke up. It is a major point of improvement and understanding that I want to share with my few readers.
I am talking about the concept of waiting after you lose, after you win, and also after you miss profit. These events leave you with an unbalanced mind, anger, euphoria, various feelings that deprive you of objectivity.
As I said before, this happens in your daily life, but since in your daily life decisions are much easier than with trading, you don't realize how important it is to preserve your objectivity by taking time off.
I mean, it's not like you won't know how to walk, or brush your teeth or go buy bread, if your life just left you. But try discretionary trading with that state of mind.
In other words, when in our life there is very little discretionary actions, we don't realize how important it is to be balanced and objective. Discretionary trading opened my eyes as to many aspects of my mind.
I am talking about the concept of waiting after you lose, after you win, and also after you miss profit. These events leave you with an unbalanced mind, anger, euphoria, various feelings that deprive you of objectivity.
As I said before, this happens in your daily life, but since in your daily life decisions are much easier than with trading, you don't realize how important it is to preserve your objectivity by taking time off.
I mean, it's not like you won't know how to walk, or brush your teeth or go buy bread, if your life just left you. But try discretionary trading with that state of mind.
In other words, when in our life there is very little discretionary actions, we don't realize how important it is to be balanced and objective. Discretionary trading opened my eyes as to many aspects of my mind.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Damn. Neither the tickers page nor the history page work any longer for my Silver requests. It's been like this for all last week. Cfr. attachment. Any advice?
...
More on this elitetrader.com's thread:
Forums - Silver symbol not working on IB TWS with Excel
Little bit here, too:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-systems/176774-silver-symbol-not-working-ib-tws-excel.html
...
I just had an online chat with an IB representative and now it's all solved, see other thread for details:
http://elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=276580
...
More on this elitetrader.com's thread:
Forums - Silver symbol not working on IB TWS with Excel
Little bit here, too:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-systems/176774-silver-symbol-not-working-ib-tws-excel.html
...
I just had an online chat with an IB representative and now it's all solved, see other thread for details:
http://elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=276580
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
here's what happens when you don't wait and let emotions take over
Here's what happens when you trade several times in a row, when you don't wait and let time work in your favor by neutralizing emotions from the previous trade, when you let emotions take over:
I went from a daily average return of about 30%, achieved for 12 days in a row, each one of them profitable, to a staggering... -190% of today.
Good thing I am learning these psychological implications of trading on the chart game rather than with real trading - although i did that as well, given that I've blown out several accounts before.
There's no way around it: discretionary trading produces emotions that harm your judgment and trading, and you need to use time and be patient, and put time between your trades.
As long as you do it, you're profitable.
The minute you stop doing it, you're very unprofitable.
Great experiment.
Here's what happens when you trade several times in a row, when you don't wait and let time work in your favor by neutralizing emotions from the previous trade, when you let emotions take over:
I went from a daily average return of about 30%, achieved for 12 days in a row, each one of them profitable, to a staggering... -190% of today.
Good thing I am learning these psychological implications of trading on the chart game rather than with real trading - although i did that as well, given that I've blown out several accounts before.
There's no way around it: discretionary trading produces emotions that harm your judgment and trading, and you need to use time and be patient, and put time between your trades.
As long as you do it, you're profitable.
The minute you stop doing it, you're very unprofitable.
Great experiment.
Last edited:
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Holy cow, this song was quite unpleasant, and she turned it into a masterpiece:
Rita Lee - A Hard Day's Night - YouTube
Rita Lee - A Hard Day's Night - YouTube
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
Oh my god... even the most annoying Beatles song was turned into a pleasant song:
Rita Lee - She Loves You - YouTube
But given her talent, she could have done even better.
Rita Lee - She Loves You - YouTube
But given her talent, she could have done even better.
Yamato
Legendary member
- Messages
- 9,840
- Likes
- 246
