Yeah. I am still reading the article above. Yeah, too bad the thread on elitetrader.com got removed. Inflector is still a member and still writes... no, wait, got it!
Here's what he writes in 2006:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1036275&highlight=turtle
Las reglas originales del sistema de las tortugas (Inglés)
Done
Sistema 1,2,3 (Inglés)
This is next
Ruptura de canales de Donchian (Castellano)
Done, because it's the same as the turtles/tortugas.
Sistema 3 barras + stochastic (Castellano)
Sistema SVBreak -Ruptura de rangos de volatilidad (Castellano)
Estrategia Bandas de Bollinger (Inglés)
Discarded, because I can't automate it on excel.
Dinamic Break Out Strategy (Inglés)
Método Lowry de Medias móviles (Castellano)
...They're writing songs of love,
But not for me.
A lucky star's above,
But not for me.
With Love to Lead the Way,
I've found more skies of Gray
Than any Russian play
Could Guarantee...
I need to think of how I will deal with a serious problem of my automation on excel.
For example, this member writes about the Andrews Pitchfork and how it is a profitable thing to use:
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/trading-journals/95392-goldmine.html
Great video about it by this guy: http://www.forexoma.com/about/
So, here I am, wondering how well it works. But there's a problem. Two problems:
1) Those 3 goddamn lines are not easy to draw on tradestation. I mean - they're easy to draw manually, but not with code.
2) Those 3 goddamn lines are even harder to automate on excel.
The same applies to the Bollinger method, suggested by Urraca (see post above).
This is all beyond my reach due to my choice of excel. And due to my choice of my brain and training. I should not have studied ****ing political science but physics, computer science, math. Better to be a retarded science student than a proficient student of political science, which is a waste of time.
Now because of these limits of mine (of course I chose excel for the same reason: I am limited in my programming abilities) I am unable to try half of the things I should be trying. Either the strategy is simple or I can't do it on tradestation, let alone excel.
All the strategies that draw lines on the chart are not for me.
"Toss me a cigarette, I think there's one in my raincoat"
"We smoked the last one an hour ago"
...He met Kathy Chitty on 12 April 1964 at the very first English folk club he played, the Railway Inn Folk Club in Brentwood, Essex. She was 17, he was 22 and they fell in love. Later that year they visited the US together, touring around mainly by bus. Kathy returned to England on her own with Simon returning to her some weeks later. When he was back in London he recorded the album The Paul Simon Songbook that included "Kathy’s Song", and had a photo of Simon and Kathy on the cover...
...The album cover shows Simon and his then-girlfriend, Kathy Chitty, sitting on "narrow streets of cobblestone" in London, the city Simon had adopted as his home...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wednesday_Morning,_3_A.M."The Sound of Silence" is the song that propelled the 1960s folk music duo Simon and Garfunkel to popularity. It was written in February 1964 by Paul Simon in the aftermath of the November 22, 1963 assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy.[1] After being later re-mixed with electric instruments, this commercial version has been called the "quintessential folk rock release".[2]
The song features Simon on acoustic guitar and both Simon and Garfunkel singing. It was originally recorded as an acoustic piece for their first album Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M. in 1964 but on the initiative of the record company's producer, Tom Wilson, it was later overdubbed with electric instruments and rereleased as a single in September 1965...
...Simon began working on the song sometime after the Kennedy assassination. He had made progress on the music but had yet to get down the lyrics. On 19 February 1964 the lyrics apparently coalesced, as Simon recalled:
“ The main thing about playing the guitar, though, was that I was able to sit by myself and play and dream. And I was always happy doing that. I used to go off in the bathroom, because the bathroom had tiles, so it was a slight echo chamber. I'd turn on the faucet so that water would run — I like that sound, it's very soothing to me — and I'd play. In the dark. 'Hello darkness, my old friend / I've come to talk with you again'.[5] ”
Simon showed the new composition to Garfunkel the same day, and shortly afterward, the duo began to perform it at folk clubs in New York. In the liner notes of their debut album, Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M., Garfunkel claims:
“ 'The Sound of Silence' is a major work. We were looking for a song on a larger scale, but this is more than either of us expected.[6] ”
The duo recorded it for the first time on March 10, and included the track on Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M., which was released that October...
...On June 15, 1965, immediately after the recording session of Bob Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone," Wilson took the original acoustically instrumented track of Simon & Garfunkel's 1964 version, and overdubbed the recording with electric guitar (played by Al Gorgoni), electric bass (Bob Bushnell), and drums (Bobby Gregg), and released it as a single without consulting Simon or Garfunkel. The lack of consultation with Simon and Garfunkel on Wilson's re-mix was because, although still contracted to Columbia Records at the time, the musical duo at that time was no longer a "working entity".[3][8][9] Roy Halee was the recording engineer, who in spirit with the success of The Byrds and their success formula in folk rock, introduced an echo chamber effect into the song.[3] Al Gorgoni later would reflect that this echo effect worked well on the finished recording, but would dislike the electric guitar work they technically superimposed on the original acoustic piece...
...For the B-Side, Wilson used an unreleased track he cut with the duo a few months earlier on which they had tried out a more "contemporary" sound. The record single "Sounds of Silence"/"We've Got a Groovey Thing Going" entered the U.S. pop charts in September 1965 and slowly began its ascent. In the first issue of Crawdaddy! magazine, January 30, 1966, Paul Williams, in reviewing the later album, wrote that he liked this B-side song which he found pure "rock and roll", "catchy", with a "fascinating beat and melody" and great harmony.
Simon learned that it had entered the charts minutes before he went on stage to perform at a club in Copenhagen, Denmark, and in the later fall of 1965 he returned to the United States. By the end of 1965 and the first few weeks of 1966, the song reached number one on the U.S. charts...
Mirko, Germany
Rating:
Date of Post: 2010-09-04
Review: Collective2 has changed over the years. They have much better APIs right now and work more stable, support more orders (like limit and stop order which they did not have before) and maximum loss.
It is up to the user to learn which signals are made to trade via Collective2 (you can not scalp via C2 because the volume are to low in many markets) but if you choose a good swing trade signal you are able to make money.
For me the main problem is that many signal provider fake their signals or results and for that reason many trader have unrealistic dreams about what is possible. C2 provides the real view on the markets - and that is a de-illusion for many traders. It is hard to find a system which is profitable on the long run in reality. On ZU** it is easy to fake the results through the MT4 History. For me C2 is a good an honest company with some smaller technical issues which may be fixed sooner or later.
Marty, Belgium
Rating:
Date of Post: 2010-01-16
Review: Collective2 is an honest signal provider service. It hosts over 10000 of which 95% are indeed very bad systems. The guy behind it, Matthew Klein, is very ambitious, helpful and cheerful. (contact is best via posting on the forum, he hardly answers emails). I've been sending signals via Collective2 since '07 and it has been nice for me.
Recently however, the site was hacked, which was not fun for us providers, as our cc info was compromised!!. The site is legit, provider raking iss honest, rebates are good. That can not be said of its main sompetor Zu.. you know which one. We all know there are so many scammers in the forex world but trust me, Collective2 is the place to look for a system (you'll have to look good but there are good ones)
Bob, USA
Rating:
Date of Post: 2009-07-04
Review: As other reviewers have noted, they rarely if ever respond to emails. Even the simplest question gets ignored. That is inexcusible in my opinion. If they are too busy, hire a freaking secretary. Even a "form" email response is better than nothing at all.
Second, 99% of the trading systems on the site are complete junk (I've tried several). I set up "auto trading" and lost 50% of my account when the "trader" I was subscribed to went AWOL and left the trades he opened just sitting there going further and further into loss. I had to go onto the site and hit "emergency stop" which closed my positions, otherwise I would have lost my entire account.
Any idiot can post a system on there (go to the site and look under "sell a trading system", and you can post one there yourself right now). For all you know, you have subscribed to a "system" being traded by some 12 year old out of his bedroom.
The concept is great, but someone mentioned Zulu trade, so I may check that out and give them a try. Although it is a good idea, they have a LOT to learn about proper customer service, and probably need some kind of filters to keep out all the worthless BS systems that exist there.
Ahmed, Germany
Rating:
Date of Post: 2009-04-30
Review: i opened an account on C2 to sell my signals and actually its very good idea BUT the problem that the website has allot of bugs and the Founder of the website actually dont know How to deal with Customers , so i opened my account for providing signals since 4 months and i made around 60% from the capital but the problem that his system is very very slow , has allot of bugs , errors , its not accurate his statistics has allot of wrong calculation, like the draw down i dont know how he count????
what made me so angry from this service on the 28th of this month i took short position on the G/U and i made my target 1.4516 and the price hited the target and the system didnt close it!!!
i contacted Mattew ''the founder of the website'' i said to him the problem he sent me very cold message ''The price not hit c2 price feed' his price feed is FXCM , i have a friend he has Real account there i met him and i opened the account and i found that the price hit 1.45142' that means my position should be closed , i contacted him again and i sent him the chart and the price he didnt answer me and ignored me!!!!
plus that he has horrible customer service no even Telephone number , when you want to register with him and you dont have credit card he dont accept another solution like paypal ''he has already pay pal'' i have friend has another account there too and he owns him 200$ and he dont sent to him as check because his rult to send just checks when the amount is more than 250$ , and my friend dont have paypal because he is from Egypt and he gave him another paypal for his friend he said no i cant send it
until i still have my trade open and i said to him i will not close it and i will leave the system like this and open some where else
thanks
Brandon, USA
Rating:
Date of Post: 2009-03-21
Review: After trying out ZuluTrade there is no comparision. Collective2 is not catered to currency traders like Zulu and there are no systems on C2 that are consistent. Their software is also full of bugs and you can't adequately control risk. Your trades are based on a percentage of how many lots the signal provider trades and the max lots feature only applies to one signal provider on one currency pair, which means you could theoretically have 30 trades open at once (since there are about 30 different pairs) even if you had the max lots set to 1 with the lowest percentage possible. This is idiotic and shows they don't understand forex.
2009-02-01 3 Stars First off, I have lost a significant percentage of my account from using C2, so keep that in mind. What I have learned is this: The performance of each system is not doctored and is for real. The systems I traded matched to the fraction of the pip of the opened and closed positions. I am using FXCM as the broker, which is probably the best for this type of service.
The difficulty with C2 is finding a consistent system. I chose two systems that were performing amazing for 3 months and they both collapsed soon after I subscribed (ShadowBanker and NewsProfiteer aka FXNewsWiz).
I am still searching for a system that is consistent. I would say only stick with systems that have been profitable for 4 months or longer, has a high sharpe ratio, and doesn't have large drawdowns. There are too many systems on there that only last a couple of months.
One other thing I don't like about C2 is the money management. They make you set a percentage of each trade, not a set amount of lots per trade. They say they do this so you can follow the system's money management rules, but this isn't always a good idea. I would like to see an option to trade a set amount of lots per trade signal instead of a percentage. The website is a little buggy, but they seem to stay on top of fixing any issues. For example, their auto sync feature will automatically enter you into any open trades a system has if you subscribe to a system that has open trades. This is a hidden danger that should be changed. There can also be oscillation of positions if you don't set the percentage right (opening then closing the same trade because the system thinks you have overleveraged).
Anyone else who has used C2 please post your results and experience. Thanks.
A graduate of Yale University, Mr. Klein also is a critically acclaimed
novelist who has published two financial thrillers. In 2007, the New
York Times said Mr. Klein's most recent work, Con Ed, is "funny, full
of tricks, and very, very hard to put down." The Book Place called Mr.
Klein's Switchback, "One of the most accomplished and daring debut
crime novels of 2006," adding that it is "a fantastic read."
1. There are no 7000+ ACTIVE systems on C2. That number is probably all systems since the website has started.
There are probably about 200 systems that are at least 3 months old, still active and profitable...
2. Sure one could enter a bunch of systems, but it costs money and time, and it also shows, so it takes even more time to cover the ownership.
3. The survivors still have to perform in the long run.
Alan, México
Rating:
Date of Post: 2009-02-27
Review: I am broadcasting my signals in C2, and I think the idea and the service is awsome!!!
Yo will find a lot of system and traders, but most of them are not constent enough, and the most of them are very risky, thats because probably they doesn't trade their own trades!!, and the drawdowns are really big in some of them. The in-depth statistics help to see what's the risk involved with each signals provider.
As the C2 creators says... Anybody can be the next Warren Buffet on C2, so you don't know if you are paying for a newbie's signals, or for the ones of a real pro...
Conclusion: Service Excellent!!!!, providers Average...
On the other hand, no one has sued collective2....I have lost in total 20000 usd in all my above stated accounts due to poor signal providers of zulutrade on whom there were no proper checks from zulutrade to verify their credentials and due to hiding of important information of signal providers having multiple names. Hence I claim refund for this lost amount along with interest period from the time they have been funded and causing mental stress. I am marking of copy of this mail to Mr. Matthew Lange of the NFA to whom I have complained with proof of the above facts of zulutrade hiding information either deliberately or due to no proper checks on their signal providers or their site administrators.
I have given one week for zulutrade to refund me back the amount as above failing which I shall be forced to initiate other ways including arbritration from NFA or from forexpeacearmy.
regards
Balaji Iyengar
It's not that I want to buy signals. I just want to know which web site hosts serious systems and which one does not.Tuesday, 13 April 2010
Written by Mark M from Germany
Hello,
Im a zulutrade user for some time now and so far im very satisfied.
The only difficult part is to find a good signal provider...this needs much testing
Also zulutrade has changed their ranking system and it now includes open trades and its much more "fair" now for the top providers.
But remember everything you do, first test it on a demo account.
Thursday, 18 February 2010
Written by Paul VH from Netherlands
To those who know, FOREX business is risky and zulutrade doesnt defy this rule. I have been trading with zulutrade for some time now and through careful choice of signal providers (DONT choose one of the top 5) and custom settings, i have managed to get a nice ROI. Try opening some demo accounts first before putting real money, dont let the brokers' advertising tricks "drag" you...
That sums it up well: good luck figuring out who is a serious trader and who is a scamster. I don't want to be searching like crazy for an honest trader. Zulutrade NO GOOD.SCAMSunday, 31 January 2010
Written by Roy Lange from USA
Zulutrade is a SCAM. I opened a $5000 cash account after tracking the top trader "LowestDD" who they claim has a 99 percent win rate and 12% drawdown. Here is the problem. He opened multiple positions on the same pair to kind of "double down" on any losing trade. He will risk hundreds and hundreds of pips just to take very small pip wins. Fact is that his drawdowns a MASSIVE.
It is like a roulette wheel strategy where you keep doubling your bet until you win. AVOID THIS SITE UNTIL THEY CHANGE TO REAL CASH ACCOUNTS FOR THE PROVIDERS WHERE THEY SHOW THEIR REAL CASH RESULTS AND THEY MUST HAVE STOP LOSS RULES AND ALSO ONLY ONE LOT PER PAIR TRADED AT A TIME.
There may be some good traders in Zulutrade, but good luck figuring out who they are!!! Their #1 guy did nothing but lose for me!
Mmh... I am changing my mind. Let's say that if you look hard, you can find good systems in zulutrade, too. But it's not as easy. Even the fact that the dollar sign has appeared ONLY in 2010 means that it started out as a scam. Maybe they're now becoming legitimate, like the Corleone family:Tuesday, 26 January 2010
Written by N*** from Singapore
I have used Zulu since May 2009. So far I have made profit around 2000 pips.
Zulu is just an interface for you to choose your own signal provider.
Signal provider is trader who execute to open and close positions for you automatically.
The trick is to find safe and good signal provider.
There are a lot of signal provider who just gamble open and close position because they are only using dummy account. Start from this year (2010) you can select signal provider who is using their own money. You need to find signal provider who used '$' (dollar) sign, which means they used their own money to trade (give signal)
If you are not confident, I would recommend you to try using Zulutrade using your Micro account.
Deposit maximum $1000 and trade max 10 lot per signal provider you choose.
You may find some signal provider have very big drawdown, but since you have 10000 pips ($1000) you are save to keep open the position.
I my self have been trading and try so many forex robot. I prefer Zulu much more because from many signal providers you can learn how they execute their position. Beside that I can always decide not to choose the same signal provider if their performance become worst.
There are a lot of signal provider
02:14:39 In five years the Corleone family is going to be completely legitimate.
I am starting to suspect this. Zulutrade rips both providers and buyers of signals to split the gains with the broker. It would be a huge scam in this case.Sunday, 03 January 2010
Written by tony from USA
I have been trading stocks,options,futures and currencies for 30 years and came across ZULUTRADE and joined on as a signal provider.As a signal provider you must complete 30 trades before you become public.I was testing the system and had 30 winning trades for 30 attempts......so far so good.To my horror I began to notice that my close orders were not processed and was unable to close no matter what I attempted and incurred extremely large draw-downs and every attempt to have ZULUTRADE correct the situation resulted with a complete run around.What seemed to be a great idea turned out to be a complete disaster.At the time I had 60 followers and could only watch their accounts dwindle.I felt very badly for those people and stopped trading with ZULUTRADE.I strongly suggest you do the same!
Yes, I am totally done with zulutrade. They're scamsters. I don't care if they're slowly becoming legitimate like the Berlusconi family or not.SCAM Sunday, 03 May 2009
Written by mike from United Kingdom
worst service ever!
their signal provider dont stick with their promises .
use very high SL (not always)
i have tried their service with total wipe out!
SCAM Thursday, 30 April 2009
Written by Dave Sidwell from USA
Apr. 2009
I have been a customer of ZuluTrade for 4 months. The first time they missed an exit signal from my selected provider, I caught it just in time, and it 'only' cost me 46 pips.
Couple months later, ZuluTrade again missed the exit signal, this time cost me 540 pips and wiped me out. Their 'rep' acknowleded the mistake, but ZuluTrade would not own up to their mistake. Never ever trade with ZuluTrade.
Create your own trading system
If you are interested in selling your trading advice, you first create a "trading system." Collective2 tracks results by trading system, and customers subscribe to particular systems. You may create as many trading systems as you like.
Ed.: meaning you don't have to trade them with real money?
In general, trading systems are organized around general principles or philosophies ("buying when things are oversold"), but they do not have to be. Opportunistic traders may simply want to create a "system" which is not really a system at all -- but is rather a set of recommendations and picks by one person.
Let's start by filling out information about your trading system. Don't worry too much about your answers; you'll be able to change them later.
And - remember - it's absolutely free to start a system and begin entering trades. So there's no risk to try it.
This means that even if you get unlucky and even if you suck as a trader you will break even with this kind of scheme. And your investment will be zero (just the 2000 dollars in fees for the 10 systems). Now let's even say that you are not that bad. You won't gamble with your own money, but just with paper trading. However those following you will not know this.Earn money selling your signals. With over 37,000 registered users, and hundreds of millions of dollars of automated transactions flowing through our platform each week, Collective2 is the dominant trading system platform. If your system performs well at C2, you will make money. How much? That obviously depends on your system, but we can give you some benchmarks: top systems on Collective2 earn between $9,000 and $15,000 per month in subscription revenue. Almost half of systems that are profitable have earned at least $1,000 in subscription revenue.
Subject: Export The Grid to Excel?
Posted by: Donald Pirl ( C2 Score: 128)
Ignored by 0% of those who use ignore feature.
Ignore user's posts for week month forever
When: 2/02/07 (14:05)
Systems: Sand 2 Pirls 652015
Why not have an 'export to Excel' button for those (probably most) who have Excel? Then we can sort and filter to our heart's content.
Subject: New drawdown stat suggestion
Posted by: Jules Ellis
Ignored by 4% of those who use ignore feature.
Ignore user's posts for week month forever
When: 8/11/09 (2:14)
In response to post by ironcito of 8/10/09 (19:58)
Yes. It could be taken one step further, giving vendors the option to have a fixed buy power for their systems, which wouldn't grow along with the account size. This would have several advantages:
- Stats such as drawdown and return could be calculated based on this amount. This would eliminate the DD problem I mentioned earlier, and also the problem of diminishing % returns as the account size gets bloated.
- It would allow prospective subscribers to easily know what kind of capital they need to start trading the system at any time.
(but maybe they don't care that they know, Ed.)
- Subscribers could rest easy knowing that a vendor who usually trades 1 or 2 contracts won't suddenly trade 30 contracts trying to make up a loss or something, just because his system which started with $50K and usually trades based on that amount, now happens to have a $1M account at C2.
- No need for the current rescaling process, which doesn't seem to have much acceptance and screws up the historical trade record.
The usual account size would be maintained for displaying the equity curve and such, but only as a historical record. The vendor would only be allowed to trade using his fixed buy power amount (if he chose to have his system operating in this mode).
I like that idea too, and similar requests have been made previously because most statistics assume that the system is compounding. But there is one little problem with it: Will the buying power also remain constant after losses that reduce the capital to an amount smaller than the initial size? That would act like a bonus on gambling, because it assumes that the account will be refunded after each major loss. The rule has to be somewhat more subtle than only a fixed buying power. Can you formulate a clear rule that deals with this problem?
(the precise rule would be like reality, that if you can't trade your systems because you blow out your account or run out of sufficient margin, then it's over - the system fails and it stays on your curriculum, with your name and last name, but they don't allow any of this, because you stop paying the subscription fee as a vendor and that's all they care about - they care about seeming legitimate not about being a serious web site, Ed.)
If this is implemented, then vendors who use this mode should be warned that it is disadvantageous for many statistics. Most statistics at C2 assume compounding. It is also hard to compare a noncompounding system with a noncompounding system, even if you are aware of the difference. For example, for a compounding system you should use the compounded annual return and for a non-compounding system you should use the non-compounded annual return, but even if you do this then the two annual returns are still not comparable. This problem exists already now, so this is not due to your suggestion, but having a separate mode for fixed buying power suggests that this is a fully supported mode while it is actually less supported - even after adding your DD statistic.
Another issue is that they conceal any subscriber statistics.
If you put two and two together ("only 2 systems work" AND "unless your system is good you won't make money"), it should mean that there's no subscribers. But this can't be the case, because such a complex web site would not have the fuel to keep going. So, unless collective2 takes all the money, but that is not the case I think (because it's hard to rip off system developers), then the case is more like this:Based on what I have seen from opinions and other things:
the 10,000+ systems is really more like a couple hundred currently active systems
Probably all but a couple do not work (do not ask about "the 2, please?")
You may get some subscription revenue as a vendor, but unless you are pretty profitable with good statistics, and have been around at least a few months, you will likely be disappointed
They also force you to leave a system up even after you know the discretionary aspect won't work in a particular environment. Say, if there is a regime change and that particular strategy no longer works in a particular Market, so you have all these abandoned strategies that they want to keep up, its just another way the vendor can make money for each one you put up.
This is bull****. Edges don't disappear as quickly as you say - if it stops working like that, it wasn't a profitable system. Or else what is the point of back-testing? I wouldn't be able to test anything over ten years, because the edge would only work for a year, and then disappear? Bull****, ridiculous.In that case I'd trade another strategy under the old system name. I guess in that game you should devise new systems all the time because rules change, edges get widely known and disappear etc.
So if I display a system that exceeds certain threshold for sharp ratio, drawdowns, liquidity etc - what do you think, will I be able to earn $10000 with it? Otherwise it's not worth an effort.
Uh huh, got it: www.timertrack.comPosted by sysdev1 on 04-01-10 08:58 AM:
This forum is true gold mine of useful info .. but you should sift through 99% of raw ore (meaningless garbage) to extract it.
Found about timertrac, covestor and other similar sites. Covestor requires you to actually have a trading account. Also a guy stars there with 300,000% returns (!!!) who is "shorting penny stocks". Tell me, how can you short penny stocks? My broker won't allow to short anything under $5. Doesn't add credibility for the site.
Tomorrow I need to check them all out. ****, I got myself into a lot of work this time.Here are 8 places to get tracked again:
timertrac
collective2
thetaresearch
timerdigest
Robbins
Striker Securities
Attain Capital
futurestruth
You need to stop preening and self glorification and demanding people back up YOUR claims with THEIR money or expecting them to dig through your random numbers to see if they have any value. It is nauseating.
You want to prove yourself, stop snorting and seeking attention and making excuses, and put a stake in the ground. Sign up with one and start trading. Get back in 4 months with your results.
He says that grey is for non-executed trades and bold black font or similar is for autotrading, which "should" mean they got executed. This is very important.Se vai a vedere i track record le operazioni in neretto "dovrebbero" essere state eseguite realmente tramite appunto l'autotrading, mentre quelle in grigio chiaro sono quelle che sono state comunicate dal sistemista al sito di c2, ma non eseguite davvero.
Ah ah... and to say I thought this was the best financial web site ever. Well, I never meant to buy or sell signals. But it does provide ideas for markets and statistics. Can all these statistics really be worthless? Mmh... I have to discover this. Obviously it is bad enough that the majority are bad. Like almost everyone seems to say the reliable systems on the web site are from 30 to 200 at the most. Out of the 13000 that have appeared there, according to what they say.Posted by 15rms on 04-01-10 09:43 AM:
The difficulties with C2 are numerous. Most importantly the owner is arrogant and not helpful. Does not seem to understand he needs people to be profitable.
After that the site allows too much fraud. It is possible to sign in under as many aliases as you want. There are people there that use many. The most visible and vocal person in the forums was allowed to conceal his 76% ignore rating he so rightly deserved. The same gentleman has over 5 aliases that have been discovered. Starts multiple failed trading signals only to go to another alias and start anew. All the while using the forums to bash and belittle other vendors that are far more successful than him.
The signals are for the most part are put out by vendors that have little knowledge our know how of what they are doing. When looking at a signal there is no telling the experience or capabilities of the vendor.
I would suggest anybody interested in C2 to take a look at the reviews of the signals. It is extremely rare to find anybody that actually C2 and makes money. Looking at the reviews that are on the front page today is a good example, 3 out of 4 of them are bad. The good review starts out with “I have only been subscribed to this system for a couple of weeks”.
After observing C2 for some time now it is clear the site blows out far more accounts than it makes money for. Most smart traders observe the site and go on their way. The other traders, vendors or vendor clients that have been there for some time are just chasing their own tail.
It is not a question of if C2 will lose your money it is a question of when.
Fascinating info. I am glad they are getting punished if that's the case. You can't just pretend you enforce honesty. You're being dishonest if you do that.Posted by oraclewizard77 on 04-01-10 05:21 PM:
The problem is you will get some systems out of pure luck there by luck will go up for 4 to 6 months and may be tuned to the market during that time period.
However, the market changes, the trader / vendor has no real idea of risk management, and lets a single trade or a series of trades wipe out all the profit and most of the subscribers accounts, since subscribers are probably not going to join at the start of the system only after it has been doing well for awhile, so the big hit may only take the vendor down 30 - 40%, but the subscribers probably get wiped out.
i previously made some money with a system there once, but I look now especially after someone hacked their website and stole credit card information, that I no longer see high number of views for some systems that may be fine to trade. This leads me to think their popularity is declining. Also, when you have tons of subscribers who have had bad experiences by losing money with C2, its hard to attract new people there even if you were to put out another good system since the audience that you are trying to reach already lost their money. Plus yes, you do have a bunch of bogus systems that make say 4 cents profit on a trade that would be a loser if you auto traded it since you would not get the same fills and subscriber fees and commissions would be a net negative.
Therefore, I think its better to trade on your own, or start your own website to promote your trading so that you don't have to compete against random systems that may have better stats than yours until they implode.
Oh yeah? bull****, even if all I understood was the markets and length of your trades, that would be useful (if the system makes money).Posted by sysdev1 on 04-02-10 05:02 AM:
Another interesting question : have anyone looked at well-performing strategies there and tried to reverse-engineer to get hold of the trading idea?
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Posted by TraderZones on 04-02-10 07:05 AM:
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Quote from sysdev1:
Another interesting question : have anyone looked at well-performing strategies there and tried to reverse-engineer to get hold of the trading idea?
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*yikes*. Almost everyone who is a newbie considers this a good idea. And pretty much everyone who votes "great idea" or "that is what I was thinking" is also still a newbie.
After you spend a few years trading or take a few logic classes, you will realize how worthless this idea is...
Attain Capital is similar but much more professional than collective2.
I'd love to see more systems available there since the only results he sends out are of ACTUAL trading.
Now is Now
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 1637
10-31-10 01:29 PM
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Quote from intradaybill:
Not according to the terms and conditions I just read. If the system blows up, the customers of that service can request rebates for the fees paid and those are deducted from your cc. So you may end up paying a lot of money.
http://www.collective2.com/static/i...msofservice.htm
"If the amount of refunds that we pay out on your behalf exceeds the fees that we collect on your behalf, we may at our discretion bill your credit card for the amount we are unable to debit from your Collective2 account in order to cover the cost of any refunds we have paid to your customers."
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And that is AFTER they have taken their 30% fee from the monthly lease fee....C2 is strictly for the benefit of C2.
Regardless how successful the system may be in the first month users can benefit by it and still demand a refund....and they get refunded no questions asked.
The net payout is after 60 days....there is no reason to use C2 other than for your own gratification of running a sim system.
No reason for the OP not to spend the 80 bucks ,but don't torment yourself dealing with C2 to lease your system....if the results are good...set up an account at Striker and you will get noticed.
NiN
See, I told you that collective2 was not real money in most cases, and you can't tell which ones.Now is Now
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 1637
05-15-10 12:21 PM
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Quote from bwolinsky:
You are misinformed. All fills are based on bid and ask prices. The "if touched" problem was clarified a couple years ago, and people still disregard the results when it is really like only letting people play with wooden bats. It's a matter of equality.
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Real time results are the ONLY legitimate way to go...
Collective 2 and similar sites are good for testing trading theories, but lend little credibilty in the real world.
Sites like Striker.com would have to be more credible than Collective2 as they are real time, real money accounts...Another could be Robbins...
NiN
As a developer:
You show more as a developer to them: they know the code, unlike on c2.
You show less to the public, who doesn't see the trades.
As a subscriber:
You can see less about a system: you're in the dark (you can see the trades but not in detail, no hours and such)
You can trust them better to pick a good system for you (they have a selection of recommended) and to forbid scams for all systems
QUOTE FROM:
http://www.attaincapital.com/commod...g-and-partnerships/trading-system-development
Attain does not work with everyone who wishes to become a trading system developer, and puts potential trading systems through rigorous testing prior to accepting new systems on our 'platform'. This testing includes applying realistic slippage and commission numbers such as $50 per trade for an emini S&P trading system, deducting the cost of the system, and running the system on out of sample data. In addition, we require all trading systems invested in by our clients are run in house, on our machines, so we can insure our clients are not at risk from communication line failures, bad data, and so on.
If you have a trading system which will hold up to this type of stress testing and you believe can consistently post above average risk adjusted returns, Attain Capital would love to work with you. To learn more about how Attain can help turn your trading system into a business - call John Cummings at 800.311.1145
"in house" means that they get your code.
"rigorous testing prior to accepting" also means that they get your code.
when it says for a system "Logic Not Disclosed":
http://www.attaincapital.com/alternative-investment-performance/trading-systems/detail/692
It only means the subscriber knows nothing about the system but they still have the code - which totally sucks.
The only purpose of Attain is to see how well the best systems perform and compare my own systems with their best systems.
True, I can also read a bit about what developers have written on each system that is good.
For everything they show, they're transparent: no scams here. But not much is disclosed. Plus very bad for developers becasue they disclose nothing to the public but everything to attain.
Out of 541 systems on their web site, only 62 systems are profitable.
For finding strategy and hearing about them, it's much better to sift through collective2 and hear opinions by the expert posters.
But this is good a term of comparison and all the top 50 systems are guaranteed to not be scams, especially the recommended ones.
A problem with attain is that it doesn't say exactly neither when the out-sample starts (which would mean nothing because you can give them your system after having used it all up and cheating therefore) nor when a system started live trading with them. Instead it does say this on collective2.
COLLECTIVE2 BEATS BY FAR ATTAIN ALL THINGS CONSIDERED
SHAMELESS: they are also recommending systems that have merely been back-tested!!! This web site is all about appearance.
FAILED. I should not waste time with it, as a customer, as a developer nor in a reverse-engineering effort.
Ok, now I can stop working for a while, as promised in the previous post.The same system appears on both striker and attain, so I can easily compare.
The trades don't show the times, for any system.
Their rankings tables cannot be ordered by columns - worse than both attain and collective2.
Useful web site to find out about a specific system, but it fails all in all, and it is even worse than attain.
25 trading strategies on the Attain Recommended list
One useful property of the Sharpe ratio is that the Sharpe ratio of a portfolio does not depend on the time over which it is measured. It will change with time period depending on the actual historic data, but there is no correlation between the Sharpe ratio and the length of time period. This is because the return and the standard deviation both increase with time. Sharpe ratios calculated over different periods of time are directly comparable.
Las reglas originales del sistema de las tortugas (Inglés)
Done
Sistema 1,2,3 (Inglés)
This is next
Ruptura de canales de Donchian (Castellano)
Done, because it's the same as the turtles/tortugas.
Sistema 3 barras + stochastic (Castellano)
Sistema SVBreak -Ruptura de rangos de volatilidad (Castellano)
Estrategia Bandas de Bollinger (Inglés)
Discarded, because I can't automate it on excel.
Dinamic Break Out Strategy (Inglés)
Método Lowry de Medias móviles (Castellano)
It's all in the pdf. Let's read it, but first let's find the English version... oh, wait it is in English already:Sistema clasico de rupturas que funciona bien en mercados tendenciales, en el PDF esta toda la información de como utilizar este método y los espacios temporales en los que se puede aplicar.
Las reglas originales del sistema de las tortugas (Inglés)
Done
Sistema 1,2,3 (Inglés)
Discarded, because I can't automate it on excel.
Ruptura de canales de Donchian (Castellano)
Done, because it's the same as the turtles/tortugas.
Sistema 3 barras + stochastic (Castellano)
This is next
Sistema SVBreak -Ruptura de rangos de volatilidad (Castellano)
Estrategia Bandas de Bollinger (Inglés)
Discarded, because I can't automate it on excel.
Dinamic Break Out Strategy (Inglés)
Método Lowry de Medias móviles (Castellano)
Las reglas originales del sistema de las tortugas (Inglés)
Done
Sistema 1,2,3 (Inglés)
Discarded, because I can't automate it on excel.
Ruptura de canales de Donchian (Castellano)
Done, because it's the same as the turtles/tortugas.
Sistema 3 barras + stochastic (Castellano)
Discarded, because I can't automate it on excel.
Sistema SVBreak - Ruptura de rangos de volatilidad (Castellano)
This is next
Estrategia Bandas de Bollinger (Inglés)
Discarded, because I can't automate it on excel.
Dinamic Break Out Strategy (Inglés)
Método Lowry de Medias móviles (Castellano)