Market Prediction/Risk:Reward

Zow

My ideal would be a hard & fast rule with quantifiable results, but I accept that with constantly changing markets etc. that's going to be more than difficult to achieve. Hopefully though, I can speed up the process of transferring my understanding of various trading/market principles into a clearly defined methodology, instead of trying to apply those principles to the market as I see it in front of me.

Turtle
 
stevet said:
the hard and fast rule is to enter trades at the right time and then hold that trade until the elements that got you into the trade break down

risk reward is an actual - not a theoretical value


Oh THAT hard & fast rule?! Why didn't you say so? :cheesy:
Yes I whole-heartedly agree with that.

I thought TT was aiming for something alone the lines of: "If the market does X then you should do Y and then that will give you Z profit, W% of the time" which as I've said is always going to be a difficult moving target as X,Y,Zand W constantly change.

I've come to believe that as the markets are constantly changing, the attitude/methodology that a trader has should also be flexible and changing, in general and also to any single trade. Which sort of rules out a system '...based on setting fixed out points'. But then you have to start somewhere and you generally do that by setting out fixed points.......(catch 22?)


There is no such thing as a theoretical Risk:reward ratio?
Interesting......I think I agree if you mean there is no way of truly making use of theoretical backtesting, and the proof will only ever be in the pudding....have I understood you correctly?
 
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Hi Turtle

Risk Reward ratio's serve 2 purposes.

  1. Keeps you out of poor trades
  2. Gives you something to look back on to analyse your trading.
1) You could have a perfect long set-up in the market, and you look right above the current price action and see there is a brick wall of resistance. Although the set-up is good, the reward is too small and there will always be risk in taking a trade.
So working out your risk / reward for the trade before you enter will stop you entering poor positions that have little reward at the end of it. It also makes you think about the risk and the position of the stop-loss :)

2) Once you have done a few trades you can work out what risk / reward and %win is for those trades. From this you can analyse how your trading and see if there is any area for improvement. For example if you have these results:

%win = 20%
R/R ratio = 3:1

You can easily see that the %win can be improved. Either use a wider stop or find better set-ups.

HTH :)
 
whilst I agree that one should let the market decide which way you are going to trade - in practice this is misunderstood .

Let the market show the way but , still one needs a preconceived plan of how the market might unfold based on previous research , and that is the hard part where the time and trouble go in .

Of course even the best plans don't get fulfilled and that happens when the market dosen't move as you expected . ditch the plan , sit it out and reevaluate - which can be very fast depending on you.

Going for high probability / lower reward trades are for so called big traders or people trading other people's money .

Somewhat irrelevant for smaller independent traders - it would entail suffering BIG losers with the illusion of more consistent but smaller winners . not my cup of tea.
 
Hi TT, thanks for starting a great thread which is very valuable.

Risk Reward is vital to success and I believe it does need to be established before entering the trade. Thus a profit target needs to be established after establishing the stop. Then if the RR is acceptable to you based on your trading plan then enter the trade.

But how should the profit target be obtained ? In exactly the same manner as the stop was obtained. From the same timeframe chart that you are using for the entry. You base your stop on the chart pattern, setting it below the previous pivot low, or base, or support level etc assuming a long trade. The target should be obtained in exactly the same manner from the chart. It should be the last pivot high, resistance area etc. If the RR is not acceptable then pass on the trade.

I think this should all be documented in a trade plan. For every trade strategy you have, where on the chart you will place the stop and target must be defined. That way there is less thinking to do in the heat of the moment.

I think it is a good idea to have multiple exit points and to scale out of a profitable trade in 2 or 3 chunks. That way you let your winners run. In order to set the additional targets, I go up in timeframes. So if the trade was entered on a 5 minute chart, my first target will be based on that chart. If the target is hit I will close say half of the position. Then I will have a second target based on say the 15 minute chart. This will also be a logical point on that chart, ie previous pivot high, resistance etc. If that target hits I may close half of the position that is still open and have a target based on the daily chart etc But all these points are defined before entering the trade.

However the key to exiting trades in this manner is to have considered all the timeframes before entering the trade. So the daily chart is the starting point, ensuring you are trading with the overall trend of the stock. Then go down in timeframes to get the entry.

But IMHO the key is that you have to have the methodology clearly defined for each strategy you trade. If you don't then after entering a trade you will analyse things forever while in the trade, when what you should be doing is looking for other trade setups.

I have attached 3 files to try and explain what I have said above. I tried to post these charts into this post but was unable to get US stocks. Is it possible ?

The 3 files are for Amazon, a daily, 15 minute and 5 minute.

I hope this helps in some way. Thanks for bringing up a very important topic in this thread. Please bear in mind that this is what works for me and may not suit your style etc.


Best wishes
 

Attachments

  • amazon.com- inc.- daily.jpg
    amazon.com- inc.- daily.jpg
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Thanks for that NT - i'm assuming your initial stop would've been above the opening gap down. A nice trade & great demonstration of identifying (multiple) exit points to establish potential reward. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on combining the probability of a succesful trade with the R:R of your individual trades (as discussed above by Zow & Sidinuk) Is that an area you've looked at & do you back test to try and establish a favourable methodology?

Turtle
 
What an interesting thread, so relevant and so important.

SID's

"The problem with risk:reward is that most people don't take into account the probability of the risk or the reward happening. They assume they have equal probability and therefore a Risk:Reward of 1:3 is better than 1:2. This is just not right.

Say your trading the dow. You set a stop of 50 pts and target of 50pts, that's only 1:1 risk:reward. So why not set the stop at 25pts instead. Now you have a R:R of 1:2, great. Unfortunately the stop is twice as close and you are, therefore, more likely to be stopped out. So in reality the 1:2 is probably no better than the 1:1."

makes real sense to me as do Zow's.

I think the biggest problem is the initial risk in trades. You look at say a Dax trade, and don't want to risk more than say 6 points, you trade a workable trading method, and discover that out of 10 trades, you make on 2 of them you lose on 8.

Why ? probably, like myself when I started, on 3 you should have been stopped as they failed, and the other 5 just hit your stop (or worse your raised stop) then took off and went where you thought it was going to go.
So you lost 48 on yr losers, when it should have been 2 lots of 10 points, then you have your profits from the 5 that turned out fine cos' they weren't stopped.

There is no substitute for going through hundreds of "trade signals" over months or more, best done by printing out charts, and finding out what sized stop works and what doesn't.

The same applies to raising your stop. I only appreciated this more recently. Talking to a friend who has traded the Bund for 10 years initially in the pit on LIFFE, he described how he NEVER moves his stop until he exited ie if he buys at 30 with a stop at 15, he would not raise his stop because he thinks it would be invalid, and just more likely to get hit. (his stops also tend to be same as targets ie 20 tick stop and target).
Thinking about this, I walked through my trades and discovered that 80% of the time if it held the initial stop, it would go where I thought it was going to go, and raising the stop would just get me taken out of perfectly good trades for the sake of a few points.
 
And of course there's always the unexpected risk....like now!
Which is why a stop is useful.
 
Dax

Fair points, as of course if the trade is a good one the stop is not so important. But I think it is also what u r personally comfortable with.......I have contemplated this one many time's ...whether to raise the stop or leave it, wider or tighter?.

for me a fixed method works well as markets r unpredictable(as this morning) reducing the risk as the trade goes in my favour, & if on my fixed system I got stopped out & then it goes my way.....so be it!, if I place a wider stop according to the market & take a bigger loss...ther can be a tendency to 'blame' myself......wrong I know.

But to me if u r doing this for a living to pay bills & feed u & yours, then net points is the main thing & of course it is what u r comfortable with as u will bear more to the market. i.e 40 points net in your comfort zone is going to be worth more than potentially 80 out of it......just my opinion of course.

but then it comes down to why we r each doing this as individual's & what our goals r ......points, system building, lifestyle.

Jay
 
Hi TT

Yes the stop would be placed above the High of the day which in this case was 54.78.

This thread that you started did get me thinking about the probability of a trade working being diminished the higher the RR ratio. I had never really given that thought before. But my trading plan uses a minimum RR of 2:1 for the first target. In addition, my first target is usually around 1% of the stocks price ie 50c on a $50.00 stock. I have found that this works for the type of Nasdaq stocks that I trade and the timeframe I trade on. This would obviously not work in all forms of trading.

I do not do back testing of strategies. I constantly monitor the success ratio of the strategies that I do use to ensure that they are still working. When I hear of a new strategy or start noticing something new happening in the markets repeatedly, then I try and formulate a new strategy. I then paper trade that strategy to test it instead of doing back testing.

Hope this helps

Regards
 
Quote ""The problem with risk :reward is that most people don't take into account the probability of the risk or the reward happening. They assume they have equal probability and therefore a Risk:Reward of 1:3 is better than 1:2. "


This is totally true.. This is one of the most important issues in risk analysis and should FULLY BE UNDERSTOOD... It is the lack of understanding of basic concepts that makes traders lose their £££.. ( I pointed out to this issue in my QUIZ post )


My fellow Traders :--

1) Do not waste your time with risk analysis unless you have clearly defined a price bench mark for you analysis FIRST .. This bench market does not have to be absolute but a relative value would do as long as it represent a portion of mass behaviors at time frame you are trading .. In another word if you are day trading you need a price bench mark to asses your risks.. Use LOW , HIGH or what ever you wish but you first need to have a bench market to be able to do the math..

2) When you take a trade think of your losses first and forget about 3:1 rule junk ( these rules come from universities.. They optimize return to be able to justify trading strategies ).. trade the market as it unfolds and take , what you are given by the market .

3) Risk analysis needs time to be assessed so take your time.. What is the rush .. Do not let market to beat your confidence.. Once confidence goes your money follow..

4) In random systems REWARD IS THE EQUAL AMOUNT COMPENSATION FOR RISK. Stock market is a semi efficient non linear system which means one could massage the term “ EQUAL “ to reduce risk and increase reward to his favour
 
Finlayson

Agree, you are much more likely to trade it better if you are in you confort zone so to speak. Just providing your comfort zone stacks up - which is where pointless stop levels come in - if you can't face the stop size, either don't put your trade on or drop your size to your comfort zone.

As mentioned above , better to take off part of your position rather than raising stop on whole lot, unless your raised stop is technicaly significant - The market doesn't care where your break even point is.
 
Dax

yes can see your point, I Just find what works for me is effort in evaluating where the market is likely to go, finding a good low risk entry & then managing the trade to a potentially desired Exit.........of course no guarantee this will be hit which Is why I lock in profit on the way.

For me I find 10 point initial stop ok, then I manage it -8-6-4-2-1+1+breather...10+11+12+13+14etc...to limit exit +30,

this sits OK with me eliminating emotion while in the trade.

so this morning .....0, +15 (stop hit as choppy) ,0

probably could have been better but the first entry was just to quick for me........swiss trade hit 30 Exit target.......but missed that one:)

whether I could have made more from different stop management I dont know, I just It find to much effort for me & as markets r quick (& I am not:)...this works at the end of the day.

hope u c what I mean

Jay
 
The discussion on what the risk is when entering a trade is interesting and I guess people view it in different ways. For example if you decide to back a horse in a race with 10 evenly matched runners you could say that your chance of winning is 1 in 10 or you could say that you have 2 possibilities either Win or Lose which is a 1 in 2 chance.

In many cases when people enter a trade the chance of success could well be only 1 in 10 but they assume that it is 1 in 2 because all they can relate to is win or lose.


Paul
 
turtle trader said:
Zow

My ideal would be a hard & fast rule with quantifiable results, but I accept that with constantly changing markets etc. that's going to be more than difficult to achieve.
Turtle

Maybe you could look into devising quatifiable R and R based on the volatility of the giving market on a rolling basis and perhaps use a percentage multipler based on the volatilty .
 
I've just received todays "daily trend watch" email from BigTrends.com and it has an article about Risk:Reward ratio's!

Here's the article:

The concept of a risk/reward ratio is pretty straight-forward; for any given trade, you're targeting a certain amount of gain, while setting a stop-loss limit if the trade goes the other direction instead. This is a critical concept for any trader to grasp, as the idea is to establish the potential loss to see if it justifies the potential gain. Of course in all cases, you want your reward to be at least a little better than your risk, so you set your targets and stops accordingly. A good rule of thumb is to seek a return of three times as much as the amount risked, making the reward/risk ratio 3 to 1. But it's equally common to see reward/ratios of anywhere between 2 to 1 and 4 to 1. Let's go through a real example.

Say we're buying XYZ shares at $36.00. We think XYZ will move to $46.80 for a 30% gain, and we're willing to risk a 10% loss in the attempt to get that 30% gain. A 10% loss on $36.00 (initial investment) means shares would fall to $32.40 before we threw in the towel and closed out the position. Our potential reward is 30%, but we're risking a 10% loss. What's the reward to risk ratio? Well, 30% divided by 10% equals a 3 to 1 reward/risk ratio.

So as long as you're rewards are bigger than your risks, over time (and enough trades) you'll make money, right? Wrong. Unfortunately, too many traders automatically set up a 3 to 1 ratio when setting price targets and stop losses on any of their trades. But they're forgetting something very important. Just because your profit target is three times as big as your risk doesn't mean you'll ever actually hit that target. You also have to factor in the likelihood of a successful trade. Let's take a look at why.

Let's stick with the assumption that our optimal reward/risk ratio is 3 to 1. Let's also assume you've developed a trading system (or you're able to pick stocks) that produces one winning trade for every four trades. So, your win/loss ratio is 1 to 4 (25%), while your reward/risk ratio is 3 to 1. Do you think you'll make money with that system? Nope - for every trade that gains 30%, you have three more trades that lose 10%. The rewards were three times as big as the risk, but it didn't create one penny in profit! The best you could hope for is to break even.



So how does one measure the real reward-to-risk ratio? You have to factor in the odds of a winning trade into the potential gains or losses. Again, we'll illustrate it with an example. Say you've found a stock you think will move 20% higher, and you're willing to risk 10% to enter that trade. You're target is 20% above your entry price, and your stop loss is 10% under your entry price. With a reward/risk ratio of 2 to 1, this trade doesn't necessarily seem all that great. But, what if the trading system had a success rate of three winners for every four trades? You'd have a 75% chance of making 20%, while only a 25% chance of losing 10%. With that particular trade, your real reward-to-risk ratio would be about 6 to 1.

The point is, don't fall into the trap of setting targets and stops based on a predetermined risk/reward ratio. Big rewards and small losses are worthless if the system is a net loser. Rather, focus on the actual risks and rewards of a total methodology. This will also force you to determine just how successful your trading system or stock picking really is, which is something you should know anyway.



They have some interesting articles, check them out:

Daily TrendWatch
 
Jay - I see what you mean, makes sense

Sidinuk

great article

Have heard of quite a few very successful traders who use Risk reward ratios that look mad or at the very least very "uncomfortable" - such as stops of 10 for 7 point gains or even less , but with high percentage win rates, or a trade that works only 15% of the time but with a high RR.

Wonder whether the reason they work is that very few people can bend their minds to trade it therefore it works...efficient market theory ironing out oppurtunities that too many people do....
 
Risk Reward

The other point that I have been mulling over, and I'm not sure what the answer is, is the way we look for trades and then manage them.

For example if as mentioned above you are trying for a 1:3 ratio, and you think you have a 50% success rate. You see a trade "entry" at 50, 40 is your stop and 80 is the target.

Then, as most of us do, you raise your stop prior to the target getting hit or even close (eg moved to breakeven when it trades 60) could you not be altering the outcome very possibly adversly, considering the original reason for getting into the trade ?

What do you think ?
 
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