Market Manipulation

[Mycroft Algoman]

For a start FTSE is an index and not a tradeable instrument on the real market. Thus anyone betting £1pp on FTSE must be doing it through a proxy provider who make up their own prices which reflect the index. Thus there is no prospect of that £1 reaching the market other than very indirectly as part of a hedge by the provider if they feel the need to do so (that hedge would have to be on futures of course).

The prices displayed in the Indices are indeed a packaged collective valuation, but there are additional layers of wriggle room...

Lets start, unless the Index you are trading in is specifically named FTSE or Dow Jones using their Stock Exchange reference then what you are trading on is a proxy, an assimilation of the true FTSE and DJI, I know of not one single provider that has a single market that is properly referenced in that way, if they were then there could be some redress for any issue.

But even that is no 'assurance' outside trading hours, so if you trade the FTSE outside of its official opening times then you do so in a market that is entirely outside of any assurance of fidelity.

You are entirely reliant on the goodwill and the honesty of the providers and generally that is fine, but if the choice is your money or their loss, your money is taken.

Be under no delusion, it doesn't matter about time or place... it's gone.

ETA.

There is no phone call, it is part automated, it is part of the Algorithm, the high risk is Red Boxed (though sometimes 'gold boxed) and the option given, but the decision making is now largely automatic too so there is very little human conscience in this.

 

[new_trader]

Market manipulation is as old as the hills. There are traders who know what is going on and take advantage of it, they are the minority who make money...The rest blame dastardly Algo's for their losses and "inexplicable" market movements.

 

[Liquid validity]

Market manipulation is as old as the hills. There are traders who know what is going on and take advantage of it, they are the minority who make money...The rest blame dastardly Algo's for their losses and "inexplicable" market movements.

Agree, nothing new with manipulation, algo or otherwise.
Yes it is perfectly possible to not be affected by or even take advantage of
that behaviour.
Most of the stuff algoman has written is tin foil hat facepalm...

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

SB companies can and do tinker with their prices to some degree, but they can't overegg that pudding for three reasons: 1. They'd upset their regulators; 2. Competition - they'd lose clients hand over fist; 3. They'd get taken to the cleaners by smart operators taking advantage of the temporary "artificial" price discrepancy.

I feel I must address this head-on.

1/. The Regulator is a toothless and muscle-less entity because the regulations themselves are so loose and vague. Upsetting the Regulator is of no concern whatsoever.

2/. The tinkering is across the entire 'Industry', the deck is shuffled that's all.

3/. Sometimes they are, but they just don't let the money out the door.

With regard to No3, we joined up to the 6 largest SB sites in march of this year, each with the same money, each with a collective and combined action on positions.

We've recorded everything for the last 6 months, 24hours a day, 12 channels all latency adjusted.

It is not quite as 'straight' as you would wish.

First, the good news, if you play the markets during opening times the picture presented by the Big6 is accurate 96% the fakery over and above the fakery inherent on the floor is mainly in the opening minutes, most especially in the DJI.

The rest is not so good to read.

During this 6 month period the largest prolonged divergence of a single site to the rest (prolonged being more than 40 minutes) is 27 points on the FTSE

Every week, every single week, there will be at least 3 instances of attenuation of this kind usually though 12 to 15 points is the norm.

The largest 'crossover swing' (crossover swing is where the points swap sides from positive to negative or vice versa for gains to the provider) we found was 21 points 12 on the positive to 9 on the negative in just 13 minutes, entirely removing a rise that was blatantly obvious, seen by the punters on that site and written out of history.

A '6-6' swing is a regular occurrence somewhere in every day across the boards.

For reasons we have yet to understand this is most prevalent on Tuesdays!

Now this sort of thing is ripe for exploitation and if you dare do so, you will not get your money, we have had bets annulled 3 times after we started taking the game to the boards.

Charts...

Have you ever gone back to rake through how a bet went wrong and found things were not quite how you recall them?

Don't worry, you're not in the dread decline of the opening throws of Alzheimers, it is quite likely that you are not as unreliable 'remembrancer' as you may think.

I'm talking about 'refining', this meely-mouthed euphamism covers the subtle and not so subtle editing of graphs.

This happens continually.

The cost of recording hardware is now minimal and any 'trader' who is not recording their actions as screen runs is vulnerable to being edited out of history in a manner of speaking.

Re-writing History is, in my books at least, a bit iffy.

Some boards are worse than others, one in particular is very 'loose' with the past but one other is very accurate and not at all prone to playing fast and loose with the past.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

Market manipulation is as old as the hills. There are traders who know what is going on and take advantage of it, they are the minority who make money...The rest blame dastardly Algo's for their losses and "inexplicable" market movements.

The point is the movements are entirely explicable!

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

Perhaps you want something you can check that is nice and 'fresh'?

Try yesterdays Indices... go to the graphs for both the FTSE and the DJI at around 10.10hrs to 10.16hrs UK times, notice the spike up and then down (if it is still there!) but anyone viewing at the time cannot have failed to notice the spike... asking on here is probably a good proof.

The reality was that a large play was made to take the market up (real market, not the likes of us) and the market trashed them, it actually crashed down to 6603 from 6624, we see it as a jump up from 6624 to 6639 this was the trade-off, one part down one part up because the play to raise the market was huge, huge enough if it had taken hold and not been expunged at birth to have stopped the decline (which is entirely fake) to 6587...

Go here:- https://www.google.co.uk/finance?q=INDEXFTSE:UKX&ei=tIY9UujyBtDCwAOBngE

Notice that there is a missing section of info between 10.10 and 10.16, the real drop was recorded by Googles page but that has been edited out of history too, it just 'Jumps the Shark'...

Nasty bit of business that we are still analysing here.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

BTW, Jumping the Shark is a regular occurrence too... 3 or 4 times a month on average.

 

[Shakone]

I feel I must address this head-on.

1/. The Regulator is a toothless and muscle-less entity because the regulations themselves are so loose and vague. Upsetting the Regulator is of no concern whatsoever.

2/. The tinkering is across the entire 'Industry', the deck is shuffled that's all.

3/. Sometimes they are, but they just don't let the money out the door.

With regard to No3, we joined up to the 6 largest SB sites in march of this year, each with the same money, each with a collective and combined action on positions.

We've recorded everything for the last 6 months, 24hours a day, 12 channels all latency adjusted.

It is not quite as 'straight' as you would wish.

First, the good news, if you play the markets during opening times the picture presented by the Big6 is accurate 96% the fakery over and above the fakery inherent on the floor is mainly in the opening minutes, most especially in the DJI.

The rest is not so good to read.

During this 6 month period the largest prolonged divergence of a single site to the rest (prolonged being more than 40 minutes) is 27 points on the FTSE

Every week, every single week, there will be at least 3 instances of attenuation of this kind usually though 12 to 15 points is the norm.

The largest 'crossover swing' (crossover swing is where the points swap sides from positive to negative or vice versa for gains to the provider) we found was 21 points 12 on the positive to 9 on the negative in just 13 minutes, entirely removing a rise that was blatantly obvious, seen by the punters on that site and written out of history.

A '6-6' swing is a regular occurrence somewhere in every day across the boards.

For reasons we have yet to understand this is most prevalent on Tuesdays!

Now this sort of thing is ripe for exploitation and if you dare do so, you will not get your money, we have had bets annulled 3 times after we started taking the game to the boards.

Charts...

Have you ever gone back to rake through how a bet went wrong and found things were not quite how you recall them?

Don't worry, you're not in the dread decline of the opening throws of Alzheimers, it is quite likely that you are not as unreliable 'remembrancer' as you may think.

I'm talking about 'refining', this meely-mouthed euphamism covers the subtle and not so subtle editing of graphs.

This happens continually.

The cost of recording hardware is now minimal and any 'trader' who is not recording their actions as screen runs is vulnerable to being edited out of history in a manner of speaking.

Re-writing History is, in my books at least, a bit iffy.

Some boards are worse than others, one in particular is very 'loose' with the past but one other is very accurate and not at all prone to playing fast and loose with the past.

You speak as if you're referring to the markets, but really you're just talking about 6 spreadbet firms. And you say you found that sometimes the price isn't the same as the underlying market. This is not groundbreaking research. It's well known that some spreadbet firms have been up to dodgy practices. Take advantage of it if you can. If you can't, and you find it working against you, don't trade with them.

 

[Liquid validity]

Perhaps you want something you can check that is nice and 'fresh'?

Try yesterdays Indices... go to the graphs for both the FTSE and the DJI at around 10.10hrs to 10.16hrs UK times, notice the spike up and then down (if it is still there!) but anyone viewing at the time cannot have failed to notice the spike... asking on here is probably a good proof.

The reality was that a large play was made to take the market up (real market, not the likes of us) and the market trashed them, it actually crashed down to 6603 from 6624, we see it as a jump up from 6624 to 6639 this was the trade-off, one part down one part up because the play to raise the market was huge, huge enough if it had taken hold and not been expunged at birth to have stopped the decline (which is entirely fake) to 6587...

Go here:- https://www.google.co.uk/finance?q=INDEXFTSE:UKX&ei=tIY9UujyBtDCwAOBngE

Notice that there is a missing section of info between 10.10 and 10.16, the real drop was recorded by Googles page but that has been edited out of history too, it just 'Jumps the Shark'...

Nasty bit of business that we are still analysing here.

WTF are you on about?
Flash crash 2010 - algos exist no debate, and your point is?

The rest of your comments are bizarre, bucket shops phoning up to
engineer a spike, yet still manipulating their own feeds...
You don't see the flaw in that argument then?

Short version = short term trade or scalp with a bucket shop and you need your head testing.
End of.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

You speak as if you're referring to the markets, but really you're just talking about 6 spreadbet firms. And you say you found that sometimes the price isn't the same as the underlying market. This is not groundbreaking research. It's well known that some spreadbet firms have been up to dodgy practices. Take advantage of it if you can. If you can't, and you find it working against you, don't trade with them.

The example I gave above regarding the events at and around 10.10 to 10.16 show clearly the underlying market working in collusion with the SB boards.

It has long been suspected that some are not entirely straight arrows but 6 months of video is new.

It is not just the 'spreadbet' element, it is the CFD, the FX and to a lesser extent standard share dealing on the boards.

Indeed, no-one forces anyone to trade.

 

[Liquid validity]

So when are you going to reveal your amazing scrolling one page web site
detailing how to take the nasty bookies to the cleaners then?

Lulz
Who cares, its retarded, don't do it, simple as that.

 

[Shakone]

The example I gave above regarding the events at and around 10.10 to 10.16 show clearly the underlying market working in collusion with the SB boards.

It has long been suspected that some are not entirely straight arrows but 6 months of video is new.

It is not just the 'spreadbet' element, it is the CFD, the FX and to a lesser extent standard share dealing on the boards.

Indeed, no-one forces anyone to trade.

In what way? Looks like fairly typical market behaviour to me. I don't know what the 6 spreadbet firms were up to during it though, so perhaps you can tell us.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

WTF are you on about?
Flash crash 2010 - algos exist no debate, and your point is?

The rest of your comments are bizarre, bucket shops phoning up to
engineer a spike, yet still manipulating their own feeds...
You don't see the flaw in that argument then?

Short version = short term trade or scalp with a bucket shop and you need your head testing.
End of.

There is a huge difference between a 'flash crash' (accidental) and purposeful instant quashing of rallies and an entirely different manner of corrosive behaviour.

Unless you didn't read what I wrote accurately this is NOT a matter of the Boards phoning anyone, this is a 'service element' that the Algo firms offer their clients.

It is only used during live market opening times, outside of that the boards manage to 'finesse' any problem they might have for themselves using the methods I've outlined.

 

[barjon]

I feel I must address this head-on.

1/. The Regulator is a toothless and muscle-less entity because the regulations themselves are so loose and vague. Upsetting the Regulator is of no concern whatsoever.

2/. The tinkering is across the entire 'Industry', the deck is shuffled that's all.

3/. Sometimes they are, but they just don't let the money out the door.

With regard to No3, we joined up to the 6 largest SB sites in march of this year, each with the same money, each with a collective and combined action on positions.

We've recorded everything for the last 6 months, 24hours a day, 12 channels all latency adjusted.

It is not quite as 'straight' as you would wish.

First, the good news, if you play the markets during opening times the picture presented by the Big6 is accurate 96% the fakery over and above the fakery inherent on the floor is mainly in the opening minutes, most especially in the DJI.

The rest is not so good to read.

During this 6 month period the largest prolonged divergence of a single site to the rest (prolonged being more than 40 minutes) is 27 points on the FTSE

Every week, every single week, there will be at least 3 instances of attenuation of this kind usually though 12 to 15 points is the norm.

The largest 'crossover swing' (crossover swing is where the points swap sides from positive to negative or vice versa for gains to the provider) we found was 21 points 12 on the positive to 9 on the negative in just 13 minutes, entirely removing a rise that was blatantly obvious, seen by the punters on that site and written out of history.

A '6-6' swing is a regular occurrence somewhere in every day across the boards.

For reasons we have yet to understand this is most prevalent on Tuesdays!

Now this sort of thing is ripe for exploitation and if you dare do so, you will not get your money, we have had bets annulled 3 times after we started taking the game to the boards.

Charts...

Have you ever gone back to rake through how a bet went wrong and found things were not quite how you recall them?

Don't worry, you're not in the dread decline of the opening throws of Alzheimers, it is quite likely that you are not as unreliable 'remembrancer' as you may think.

I'm talking about 'refining', this meely-mouthed euphamism covers the subtle and not so subtle editing of graphs.

This happens continually.

The cost of recording hardware is now minimal and any 'trader' who is not recording their actions as screen runs is vulnerable to being edited out of history in a manner of speaking.

Re-writing History is, in my books at least, a bit iffy.

Some boards are worse than others, one in particular is very 'loose' with the past but one other is very accurate and not at all prone to playing fast and loose with the past.

I agree that the Regulator is pretty toothless but the more reputable companies can't afford to get on the wrong side of them too often.

I've also seen pretty heavy divergencies from the "real" with the more buckety bucket shops but never as high as 27. I would have thought astute operators like yourself would pounce on that and reap their reward when the 40+minutes was up and I doubt that they can get away with having your trades annulled. Mostly it's a couple of points, presumably because they anticipate which way the majority of their clients are likely to play it, which leaves them with a sure thing if they are hedging their net exposure and/or shaves a bit off clients who are still running when price is adjusted to "real".

Retail clients never get the best deal, of course, - same as in life generally - but they are just hurdles you have to live with if you want to play.

 

[Liquid validity]

The example I gave above regarding the events at and around 10.10 to 10.16 show clearly the underlying market working in collusion with the SB boards.

This gets more bizarre each post, the underlying does not give a flying
f**k about spreadbet companies...
You are making a connection that does not exist.
Why would they play with their feeds if they could make the underlying do their bidding.
Contradiction in terms.

Bizarre...
Keep going though, its good lulz
This has to be a windup...

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

I'm not talking about 'Bucket-shops' (I think I'm not anyway!) but the big players in this who advertise their wares everywhere and anywhere and have very user friendly and expensively tailored interfaces.

That might be your definition of a 'Bucket-shop' but it's definitely not mine.

If it is yours then please advise me of a 'non-bucket-shop' site for me to include in Phase 2 of our Research.

 

[Liquid validity]

I'm not talking about 'Bucket-shops' (I think I'm not anyway!) but the big players in this who advertise their wares everywhere and anywhere and have very user friendly and expensively tailored interfaces.

That might be your definition of a 'Bucket-shop' but it's definitely not mine.

If it is yours then please advise me of a 'non-bucket-shop' site for me to include in Phase 2 of our Research.

I have no idea what you are talking about, its clear you don't either...
You're the one that mentioned spread bet firms (colloquially referred to as bucket shops).
Why am I wasting my time, this is pointless, but the lulz is good.

BTW, any chance of you answering this:
Why would they play with their feeds if they could make the underlying do their bidding.
Contradiction in terms.

 

[Mycroft Algoman]

This gets more bizarre each post, the underlying does not give a flying
f**k about spreadbet companies...
You are making a connection that does not exist.
Why would they play with their feeds if they could make the underlying do their bidding.
Contradiction in terms.

Bizarre...
Keep going though, its good lulz
This has to be a windup...

The term that best covers this is symbiosis, each has attributes that confers or can confer a benefit to the other.

The connection is irrefutable, it is even admitted and openly spoken about, to deny such (as you are doing with guffaws and sniggering) is counter to every piece of evidence across the net and the 'industry' itself.

There is no wind-up from this side of my screen nor is there much that I find funny, but a sense of humour is personal taste in its purest essence.

 

[Liquid validity]

Bucket shops play with feeds.
Algos cause spikes, so what, that it?
Thats your startling revelation...

You still haven't answered this:
Why would they play with their feeds if they could make the underlying do their bidding.
Contradiction in terms.

 

[Shakone]

Symbiosis. Yes there is a market with different participants.

If the trend is up from 'the algos' and I go long, would you consider that collusion. And if I take profits around the same area as where these algos decide to push the market down, am I involved in a price conspiracy?