Lost Trading

[aussietrader]

Jyde,
SB is more than just a wide spread. It is a derivative of an actual market usually and as such an additional risk is that there is always a single market maker for you to deal with. Whilst in my experience this hasn't been a big problem, I do use several SB companies just in case.

When you start to trade in size, apart from the tax one is normally better off going direct but that depends on markets etc simply because of the lower spread. For me, I like the convenience of a single account and the r'ship I have with the bookmakers plus the tax aspect make SB worthwhile.

AT

 

[Thirteen]

a quote from a buddy o mine:

traders should approach the markets with an offensive plan and a defensive plan. our defensive plan should have the ability to score ticks. most traders enter a trade and their defense is only either an initial stop or trailing stop. once hit, the game is over and the trader sits on the sidelines waiting for the next trade. traders that take their game to the next level are using reversal signals as their defense so they have the ability to stay out on the court. steal the ball and score some points. - breakouts and reversals. - offensive and defensive. teamwork and just one possible tactic to research/apply

can a spread better play like this? of course not. as someone else pointed out - when the bet has been made its time to cross yr fingers and hope yr analysis was right.

when u trade u rely less on analysis and more on skill in reading market and acting in line with what it sees. u r now no longer going down a 1 way street, but u give yr self cross roads

when u trade u assess the fight. if its all out war u bring in the tanks. if its a street fight u bring a saturday night special - wot ever makes sure u win. if u spread bet then u are taking a knife to a streetfight all the time - and if may not even turn out to b a street fight

i dont see its worth me posting anymore or helping this poor dude out - u have been told of the dangers and if u still refuse to c the difference wot do i care - its yr money & im sure sb cos will have a great xmas party this year thanx to your contributions

 

[blackcab]

Jyde, search the board (titles only to start with) for the word 'bias'. That will uncover some threads that talk about this aspect of spreadbetting that is contentious but worth reading about.

 

[Jyde]

Assie and Blackcab, thank you vey much for that, that was a big help! I did search around, but I guess I did not really know what to search for.
I now see competely why some would see SB as a gamble and direct access not. The reason I did not get it - or even suspect it - must be one of pure luck: I use IG as broker, I trade only futures, and I have never seen any divation from the real futures data. As long as that is the case (for me), I will choose not to see SB as any more of a gamble than anything else regarding trading. (Yes, the operative words were 'in this case').
Christmas parties, knifes, streetfights and tanks... err yes, right...

 

[Jyde]

Good for you...

Actually, I am sorry if you took my mail to be arrogant, there was no intention of that.
Nor was there any call for abuse on your behalf.

 

[the blades]

a quote from a buddy o mine:

traders should approach the markets with an offensive plan and a defensive plan. our defensive plan should have the ability to score ticks. most traders enter a trade and their defense is only either an initial stop or trailing stop. once hit, the game is over and the trader sits on the sidelines waiting for the next trade. traders that take their game to the next level are using reversal signals as their defense so they have the ability to stay out on the court. steal the ball and score some points. - breakouts and reversals. - offensive and defensive. teamwork and just one possible tactic to research/apply

can a spread better play like this? of course not. as someone else pointed out - when the bet has been made its time to cross yr fingers and hope yr analysis was right.

when u trade u rely less on analysis and more on skill in reading market and acting in line with what it sees. u r now no longer going down a 1 way street, but u give yr self cross roads

when u trade u assess the fight. if its all out war u bring in the tanks. if its a street fight u bring a saturday night special - wot ever makes sure u win. if u spread bet then u are taking a knife to a streetfight all the time - and if may not even turn out to b a street fight

i dont see its worth me posting anymore or helping this poor dude out - u have been told of the dangers and if u still refuse to c the difference wot do i care - its yr money & im sure sb cos will have a great xmas party this year thanx to your contributions

13 - don't quit just yet, for my sake...

On shares, the value quoted for the share is the market price, the SB commission (fixed) and an interest charge (fixed). This incurrs a level of cost which makes SB impractical for intra-day traders. However, I don't understand how this cost structure makes it any more a less a gamble than other methods? I accept that all trading is a form of gambling, I just can't see why SB is more so. Are you suggesting that there is a level of play with the price quoted by the SB firm, hence you are trying to beat them as well?

In my experience, this is not the case. I frequently trade US / UK stocks, over 2 years, and am yet to see an example of this. So if the quotes are the market price plus a fixed amount, why is it different to other forms of trading?

I ask in "honest wonder" - I read the same criticisms on other threads and I want to know if I'm missing a trick, or one is going to bite me. However, from what I see you have to deal with market spread in all forms of trading. You have the SB commission - largely in line with stamp duty, and an interest charge which is literally "as Long as it is short". So what am I missing?

UTB

 

[bbmac]

Something we may all agree on: (?)

1. Is trading gambling? My defintition of gambling is where you accept a probability of a favourbale outcome less than or equal to 50% 9As an example my own style of trading ensures I take only the high probability trades that significantly lessen the risk., and put the odds of a successful outcome, spread and bias not withstanding, in my favour.)

2 Does the spread/price bias practised by both SB's and other retail 'middlemen brokers' make obtaining a successfull outcome harder? yes,but by no mean impossible, even for intraday trading. Ie choose an instrument that has sufficient volatility and movement and generally trends well for eg.

3. Would it be preferable to trade on an exchange? Yes of couse, but their are limitations in terms of size, opening hours etc, that mke the 'middleman' a more attractive/convenient/accessible option to many.

 

[Buk]

Something we may all agree on: (?)

Ie choose an instrument that has sufficient volatility and movement and generally trends well for eg.

3. Would it be preferable to trade on an exchange? Yes of couse, but their are limitations in terms of size, opening hours etc, that mke the 'middleman' a more attractive/convenient/accessible option to many.

certainly wouldn't disagree with any of that.

 

[the blades]

Something we may all agree on: (?)

1. Is trading gambling? My defintition of gambling is where you accept a probability of a favourbale outcome less than or equal to 50% 9As an example my own style of trading ensures I take only the high probability trades that significantly lessen the risk., and put the odds of a successful outcome, spread and bias not withstanding, in my favour.)

2 Does the spread/price bias practised by both SB's and other retail 'middlemen brokers' make obtaining a successfull outcome harder? yes,but by no mean impossible, even for intraday trading. Ie choose an instrument that has sufficient volatility and movement and generally trends well for eg.

3. Would it be preferable to trade on an exchange? Yes of couse, but their are limitations in terms of size, opening hours etc, that mke the 'middleman' a more attractive/convenient/accessible option to many.

Agreed

UTB

 

[Thirteen]

flexibility.

all u dudes do is gamble on market direction. when u r wrong u have lost everything

80% of us can pick market direction yet 80% still fail despite being able to predict correct direction

so

there must be more to this than predicting market direction

[Mod's Note: Edited to remove agressive language]

 

[the blades]

I am asking for information from you in the hope that I can learn how I can improve my overall returns by using an alternative method to SB. As yet, I haven't heard one - but I am still genuinely interested.

I hold for around 3 months, average gains 5 - 10%. The price I recieve from the SB co is the market price plus around 1%. Due to the benefits of credit / margin I have used my trading pot to pay off the mortgage so I start 6% better off, don't I? I hedge my bets against the market so I am not interested in market direction, just beating the market. Because I hedge my bets, the interest charge is cancelled out. Any profits I make above CGT allowance are 40% greater than profits from other methods. How can I improve on this?

UTB

 

[Sharky]

Thirteen, offensive language is not permitted on these forums and your previous comments have been removed. If we get another reported post because of an aggressive post you've made then we will have no option but to suspend or terminate your account immediately.

http://www.trade2win.com/boards/faq.php?faq=faq_site_guidelines

 

[TheBramble]

Sharky, is it possible to re-post 13's response without whatever language was objected to?

There was a useful comment or two in there about getting the trend right but still not making money and also about not needing to know what the market is going to do next in order to profit.

I don't recall the language used that is apparently the issue, but the message seemed a useful one - given the thread topic.

 

[rossored]

There you go Tony.

I've left one deleted as it was pointless.

Nice to see you back.

 

[Roberto]

what am I missing?

I think that part of the answer is probably "prejudice", to be honest. Many people who spread-bet successfully for a living (especially intraday) never cease to be amazed at the ways in which the beliefs displayed on internet bulletin-boards and the like are "more prejudicial than probative", to coin a phrase. In my experience, in other threads here and elsewhere, people with strongly anti-spread-betting views have usually had an unfortunate experience or two with it in the past, hence the strength of their personal views. IMHO these experiences (and therefore opinions) are sometimes derived from their having over-traded or used inadvisable position-sizes, or of course both. Some people have the mind-set that direct dealing is somehow on a par with "investing", and this fact somehow "legitimises" it in their eyes, whereas in contrast to this they purport to perceive spread-betting, for reasons I don't personally agree with, to be somehow more on a par with a flutter on an outsider in the 3.30 at Aintree!

 

[the blades]

I think that part of the answer is probably "prejudice", to be honest. Many people who spread-bet successfully for a living (especially intraday) never cease to be amazed at the ways in which the beliefs displayed on internet bulletin-boards and the like are "more prejudicial than probative", to coin a phrase. In my experience, in other threads here and elsewhere, people with strongly anti-spread-betting views have usually had an unfortunate experience or two with it in the past, hence the strength of their personal views. IMHO these experiences (and therefore opinions) are sometimes derived from their having over-traded or used inadvisable position-sizes, or of course both. Some people have the mind-set that direct dealing is somehow on a par with "investing", and this fact somehow "legitimises" it in their eyes, whereas in contrast to this they purport to perceive spread-betting, for reasons I don't personally agree with, to be somehow more on a par with a flutter on an outsider in the 3.30 at Aintree!

Agreed Roberto, but wouldn't it be nice (for once) to probe a little deeper and for someone to substatiate their opinions with a few experiences. I have posted my position (above) several times on different threads and asked for better trading platforms - yet those who start with "why would anybody spreadbet" always seem to disappear.

And I'm still genuinely interested.

UTB

 

[Thirteen]

i have never spread betted in my life

i never plan to

all i need to do is look at the business model and realize it sucks and it is for losers.

the only thing i would have to do with spreadbetting is to own shares in the company cos it seems to me there is an endless line of greedy pigs off to the slaughter thinkin they will get rich quick

ok there may be a few people who make money at this - but i dont think they will be able to do this consistently. whats more the sb will probably allow them to make easy money to start with cos they understand the psychology of getting adicted to random rewards (ring any bells mr sun). all that is being done is that these pigs are being fattened b4 being taken to the slaughter. the sb knows he will get his money back in the end


the dude has spoken

 

[the blades]

I was hoping that you had it in you to actually address some of the points I raised - sadly it seems you are either unwilling, or more likely unable to explain or debate this.

Take a read through a few of our posts thirteen - are you in any way proud of the content or tone?

Best leave it here "m8", the only advice it seems I can offer you is that the space on the top left is for your nickname, not other more personal details.

UTB

 

[Thirteen]

I was hoping that you had it in you to actually address some of the points I raised - sadly it seems you are either unwilling, or more likely unable to explain or debate this.

Take a read through a few of our posts thirteen - are you in any way proud of the content or tone?

Best leave it here "m8", the only advice it seems I can offer you is that the space on the top left is for your nickname, not other more personal details.

UTB

lol - what a joke.

how am i supposed to comment on yr particular strategy from what u posted? all u post is a few vague, below average performance stats. big deal. perhaps you should b more introspective - at least a bit more specific in what u r looking for. i am sure u r not dumb enuff to think i have time or inclination to tell u how to better yr self

proud of content or tone?

hmm ill tell u this - unlike most here i have no ego so have no regard for your opinion or any1 elses. arrogant? maybe but so what. i am content most here are not. why do u think 99% of people on this BB claim to be making money with sb when the business model ensures this will not be done - so if these people cant be honest with eachother then why should i care what u/they think cos what u/they think and say is clearly wrong

ciao

 

[the blades]

lol - what a joke.

how am i supposed to comment on yr particular strategy from what u posted? all u post is a few vague, below average performance stats. big deal. perhaps you should b more introspective - at least a bit more specific in what u r looking for. i am sure u r not dumb enuff to think i have time or inclination to tell u how to better yr self

proud of content or tone?

hmm ill tell u this - unlike most here i have no ego so have no regard for your opinion or any1 elses. arrogant? maybe but so what. i am content most here are not. why do u think 99% of people on this BB claim to be making money with sb when the business model ensures this will not be done - so if these people cant be honest with eachother then why should i care what u/they think cos what u/they think and say is clearly wrong

ciao

there's easily enough detail to offer alternatives - if there are any. For me, it's as simple as this - if I lose 40% of a 7.5% gain, then I've lost far more than the extra, say 1% for the sake, I'd save using other methods. I'm not clear on the flexibility I'm missing out on, but someone else may explain in polite, adult language.

You are here for neither enjoyment or learning (so you say), so can we take it that the village idiot act is your charitable effort to amuse us after another day of heavy losses?


As for seeking help to better myself - I'm not after any. However, my 6 year old son will soon be stepping up to text type. I'm sure he'll PM you.