Best Thread Keynes Vs. Hayek

I will pre-empt the inevitable reply from Atilla where he once again will prove he hasn’t understood a thing I’ve said...or anything else for that matter.

In Praise of the Capitalist 1 Percent
Mises Daily: Friday, October 21, 2011 by George Reisman

The protesters in the Occupy Wall Street movement and its numerous clones elsewhere in the country and around the world chant that 1 percent of the population owns all the wealth and lives at the expense of the remaining 99 percent. The obvious solution that they imply is for the 99 percent to seize the wealth of the 1 percent and use it for their benefit rather than allowing it to continue to be used for the benefit of the 1 percent, who are allegedly undeserving greedy capitalist exploiters. In other words, the implicit program of the protesters is that of socialism and the redistribution of wealth.

Putting aside the hyperbole in the movement's claim, it is true that a relatively small minority of people does own the far greater part of the wealth of the country. The figures "1 percent" and "99 percent," however exaggerated, serve to place that fact in the strongest possible light.

What the protesters do not realize is that the wealth of the 1 percent provides the standard of living of the 99 percent.

The protesters have no awareness of this, because they see the world through an intellectual lens that is inappropriate to life under capitalism and its market economy. They see a world, still present in some places, and present everywhere a few centuries ago, of self-sufficient farm families, each producing for its own consumption and having no essential connection to markets.

In such a world, if one sees a farmer's field, or his barn, or plow, or draft animals, and asks who do these means of production serve, the answer is the farmer and his family, and no one else. In such a world, apart from the receipt of occasional charity from the owners, those who are not owners of means of production cannot benefit from means of production unless and until they themselves somehow become owners of means of production. They cannot benefit from other people's means of production except by inheriting them or by seizing them.

In the world of the protesters, means of production have the same essential status as consumers' goods, which as a rule are of benefit only to their owners. It is because of this that those who share the mentality of the protesters typically depict capitalists as fat men, whose plates are heaped high with food, while the masses of wage earners must live near starvation. According to this mentality, the redistribution of wealth is a matter merely of taking from the overflowing plates of the capitalists and giving to the starving workers.

Contrary to such beliefs, in the modern world in which we actually live, the wealth of the capitalists is simply not in the form of consumers' goods to any great extent. Not only is it overwhelmingly in the form of means of production, but those means of production are employed in the production of goods and services that are sold in the market. Totally unlike the conditions of self-sufficient farm families, the physical beneficiaries of the capitalists' means of production are all the members of the general consuming public who buy the capitalists' products.

For example, without owning so much as a single share of stock in General Motors or Exxon Mobil, everyone in a capitalist economy who buys the products of these firms benefits from their means of production: the buyer of a GM automobile benefits from the GM factory that produced that automobile; the buyer of Exxon's gasoline benefits from its oil wells, pipelines, and tanker trucks. Furthermore, everyone benefits from their means of production who buys the products of the customers of GM or Exxon, insofar as their means of production indirectly contribute to the products of their customers. For example, the patrons of grocery stores whose goods are delivered in trucks made by GM or fueled by diesel oil produced in Exxon's refineries are beneficiaries of the existence of GM's truck factories and Exxon's refineries. Even everyone who buys the products of the competitors of GM and Exxon, or of the customers of those competitors, benefits from the existence of GM's and Exxon's means of production. This is because GM's and Exxon's means of production result in a more abundant and thus lower-priced supply of the kind of goods the competitors sell.

In other words, all of us, 100 percent of us, benefit from the wealth of the hated capitalists. We benefit without ourselves being capitalists, or being capitalists to any great extent. The protesters are literally kept alive on the foundation of the wealth of the capitalists they hate. As just indicated, the oil fields and pipelines of the hated Exxon corporation provide the fuel that powers the tractors and trucks that are essential to the production and delivery of the food the protesters eat. The protesters and all other haters of capitalists hate the foundations of their own existence.

The benefit of the capitalists' means of production to non-owners of means of production extends not only to the buyers of the products of those means of production but also to the sellers of the labor that is employed to work with those means of production. The wealth of the capitalists, in other words, is the source both of the supply of products that non-owners of the means of production buy and of the demand for the labor that non-owners of the means of production sell. It follows that the larger the number and greater the wealth of the capitalists, the greater is both the supply of products and the demand for labor, and thus the lower are prices and the higher are wages, i.e., the higher is the standard of living of everyone. Nothing is more to the self-interest of the average person than to live in a society that is filled with multibillionaire capitalists and their corporations, all busy using their vast wealth to produce the products he buys and to compete for the labor he sells.

Nevertheless, the world the protesters yearn for is a world from which the billionaire capitalists and their corporations have been banished, replaced by small, poor producers, who would not be significantly richer than they themselves are, which is to say, impoverished. They expect that in a world of such producers, producers who lack the capital required to produce very much of anything, let alone carry on the mass production of the technologically advanced products of modern capitalism, they will somehow be economically better off than they are now. Obviously, the protesters could not be more deluded.

In addition to not realizing that the wealth of the so-called 1 percent is the foundation of the standard of living of the so-called 99 percent, what the protesters also do not realize is that the "greed" of those who seek to become part of the 1 percent, or to enlarge their position within it, is what serves progressively to improve the standard of living of the 99 percent.

Of course, this does not apply to wealth that has been acquired by such means as obtaining government subsidies or preventing competition through protective tariffs and other forms of government intervention. These are methods that are made possible to the extent that the government is permitted to depart from a policy of strict laissez-faire and thereby arbitrarily reward or punish firms.

Apart from such aberrations, the way that business fortunes are accumulated is by means of the high profits generated by the introduction of new and improved products and more efficient, lower-cost methods of production, followed by the heavy saving and reinvestment of those high profits.

For example, the $6 billion fortune of the late Steve Jobs was built on a foundation of Mr. Jobs having made it possible for Apple Computer to introduce such new and improved products as the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad, and then heavily saving and reinvesting the share of the profits that came to him.

Two closely related points need to be stressed. First, the fortunes that are accumulated in this way generally serve in the larger-scale production of the very sort of products that provided the profits out of which their accumulation took place. Thus, for example, Jobs's billions serve largely in the production of Apple's products. Similarly, old Henry Ford's great personal fortune, earned on the foundation of introducing major improvements in the efficiency of automobile production, which brought down the price of a new automobile from about $10,000 at the beginning of the 20th Century to $300 in the mid 1920s, was used to make possible the production of millions of Ford automobiles.

Second, the high rates of profit earned on new and improved products and methods of production are temporary. As soon as the production of the new product or use of the new method of production becomes the norm in an industry, it no longer provides any exceptional profitability. Indeed, further improvements again and again render earlier improvements downright unprofitable. For example, the first generation of the iPhone, which was highly profitable just a few years ago, is or soon will be unprofitable, because further advances have rendered it obsolete.

As a result, the accumulation of great business fortunes generally requires the introduction of a series of improvements in products or methods of production. This is what is required to maintain a high rate of profit in the face of competition. For example, Intel's ability to maintain its high rate of profit over the years has depended on its ability to introduce one substantial improvement in its computer chips after another. The net effect has been that computer users have gotten the benefit of improvement after improvement not only at no rise but a drastic decline in the prices of computer chips. Insofar as high profits rest on low costs of production, competition drives prices down to correspond to the lower level of costs, which necessitates the achievement of still further cost reductions to maintain high profits.

The same outcome, of course, applies not only to Intel and microprocessors but also to the rest of the computer industry, where gigabytes of memory and terabytes of hard-drive data storage now sell at prices below the prices of megabytes of memory and hard-drive data storage just a couple of decades ago. Indeed, if one knows how to look, the principle of ever more and better products for less and less applies throughout the economic system. It is present in the production of food, clothing, and shelter as well as in the high-tech industries, and in virtually all industries in between.

It is present in these industries even though the government's inflation of the money supply has caused the prices of their products to rise sharply over the years. Despite this, when calculated in terms of the amount of labor the average person must expend in order to earn the wages needed to enable him to buy these products, their prices have sharply fallen.

This can be seen in the fact that today, the average worker works 40 hours per week, while a worker of a century or so ago worked 60 hours a week. For the 40 hours he works, the average worker of today receives the goods and services comprising the average standard of living of 2011, which includes such things as an automobile, refrigerator, air conditioner, central heating, more and better living space, more and better food and clothing, modern medicine and dentistry, motion pictures, a computer, cell phone, television set, washer-dryer, microwave oven, and so on. The average worker of 1911 either did not have these things at all or had much less of them and of poorer quality.

If we describe the goods and services received by the average worker of today for his 40 hours of labor as being 10 times as great as those received by the average worker of 1911 for his 60 hours of labor, then it follows that, expressed in terms of the amount of labor that needs to be performed today in order to be able to buy goods and services equivalent to the standard of living of 1911, prices have fallen to two-thirds of one-tenth of their level in 1911, i.e., to one-fifteenth of their level in 1911, which is to say, by 93 1/3 percent.

Capitalism — laissez-faire capitalism — is the ideal economic system. It is the embodiment of individual freedom and the pursuit of material self-interest. Its result is the progressive rise in the material well-being of all, manifested in lengthening life spans and ever-improving standards of living.

The economic stagnation and decline, the problems of mass unemployment and growing poverty experienced in the United States in recent years, are the result of violations of individual freedom and the pursuit of material self-interest. The government has enmeshed the economic system in a growing web of paralyzing rules and regulations that prohibit the production of goods and services that people want, while compelling the production of goods and services they don't want, and making the production of virtually everything more and more expensive than it needs to be. For example, prohibitions on the production of atomic power, oil, coal, and natural gas, make the cost of energy higher and in the face of less energy available for use in production, require the performance of more human labor to produce any given quantity of goods. This results in fewer goods being available to remunerate the performance of any given quantity of labor.

Uncontrolled government spending and its accompanying budget deficits and borrowing, along with the income, estate, and capital gains taxes, all levied on funds that otherwise would have been heavily saved and invested, drain capital from the economic system. They thus serve to prevent the increase in both the supply of goods and the demand for labor that more capital in the hands of business would have made possible. They have now gone far enough to have begun actually to reduce the supply of capital in the economic system in comparison with the past.

Capital accumulation is also impaired, and can ultimately be turned into capital decumulation, through the effects of additional government regulation in raising the costs of production and thus reducing its efficiency. This applies to practically all of the regulations imposed by the Environmental Protection Agency, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the National Labor Relations Board, the Food and Drug Administration, and the various other government agencies. The effect of their regulations is that for any given amount of labor performed in the economic system, there is less product than would otherwise be produced.

Now anything that serves to reduce the ability to produce in general serves also to reduce the ability to produce capital goods in particular. Because of such government interference, any given amount of labor and capital goods devoted to the production of capital goods results in a smaller output of capital goods, just as any given quantity of labor and capital goods devoted to the production of consumers' goods results in a smaller output of consumers' goods. At a minimum, the reduced supply of capital goods produced serves to reduce the rate of economic progress. A reduction in the supply of capital goods produced great enough to prevent the addition of any increment to the previously existing supply of capital goods, and thus to put an end to capital accumulation, brings economic progress to a complete halt. A still greater reduction, one that renders the supply of capital goods produced less than the supply being used up in production, constitutes capital decumulation and thus a decline in the economic system's ability to produce. As indicated, the United States already appears to be at this point.

The problem of capital decumulation has been greatly compounded as the result of massive credit expansion induced by the Federal Reserve System and its policy of easy money and artificially low interest rates. This policy led first to a great stock-market bubble and then a vast housing bubble, as large quantities of newly created money poured into the stock market and later the housing market. Between these two bubbles, trillions of dollars of capital were lost. In both instances, vast overconsumption occurred as people raced to buy such things as new automobiles, major appliances, vacations, and all kinds of luxury goods that they would not have believed they could afford in the absence of the effects of credit expansion, often incurring substantial debt in the process.

In the one case, it was the artificial rise in stock prices that misled people into believing that they could afford these things. In the other, it was the artificial rise in home prices that produced this result. The seeming wealth vanished with the fall in stock prices and then again, later, with the fall in housing prices. In the housing bubble, moreover, millions of homes were constructed for people who could not afford to pay for them. All of this represented a huge loss of capital and thus of the ability of business to produce and to employ labor. It is this loss of capital that is responsible for our present problem of mass unemployment.

Despite this loss of capital, unemployment could be eliminated. But given the loss of capital, what would be required to accomplish this is a fall in wage rates. This fall, however, is made virtually illegal as the result of the existence of minimum-wage laws and pro-union legislation. These laws prevent employers from offering the lower wage rates at which the unemployed would be reemployed.

Thus, however ironic it may be, it turns out that virtually all of the problems the Occupy Wall Street protesters complain about are the result of the enactment of policies that they support and in which they fervently believe. It is their mentality, the Marxism that permeates it, and the government policies that are the result, that are responsible for what they complain about. The protesters are, in effect, in the position of being unwitting flagellants. They are beating themselves left and right and as balm for their wounds they demand more whips and chains. They do not see this, because they have not learned to make the connection that in violating the freedom of businessmen and capitalists and seizing and consuming their wealth, i.e., using weapons of pain and suffering against this small hated group, they are destroying the basis of their own well-being.

However much the protesters might deserve to suffer as the result of the injury caused by the enactment of their very own ideas, it would be far better, if they woke up to the modern world and came to understand the actual nature of capitalism, and then directed their ire at the targets that deserve it. In that case, they might make some real contribution to economic well-being, including their own.
 
Capitalism — laissez-faire capitalism — is the ideal economic system. It is the embodiment of individual freedom and the pursuit of material self-interest. Its result is the progressive rise in the material well-being of all, manifested in lengthening life spans and ever-improving standards of living.

if only this were true. although I believe capitalism is the way to go, not in it's present form.

For example, the $6 billion fortune of the late Steve Jobs was built on a foundation of Mr. Jobs having made it possible for Apple Computer to introduce such new and improved products as the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad, and then heavily saving and reinvesting the share of the profits that came to him.

thousands for people in china made it possible for Steve Jobs to make a 6 billion fortune.Apples margin on product it's sells are in the 50 to 55% range why can't Apple make a 20 to 25% margin and double the wages of the employees getting a couple of thousand dollars a year.Their not benefiting from capitalism that's why their committing suicide.

also did Steve Jobs pay all the tax he should have done on that money or like Warren Buffett was his tax rate lower than his secretary.
 
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I will pre-empt the inevitable reply from Atilla where he once again will prove he hasn’t understood a thing I’ve said...or anything else for that matter.

In Praise of the Capitalist 1 Percent
Mises Daily: Friday, October 21, 2011 by George Reisman

The protesters in the Occupy Wall Street movement and its numerous clones elsewhere in the country and around the world chant that 1 percent of the population owns all the wealth and lives at the expense of the remaining 99 percent. The obvious solution that they imply is for the 99 percent to seize the wealth of the 1 percent and use it for their benefit rather than allowing it to continue to be used for the benefit of the 1 percent, who are allegedly undeserving greedy capitalist exploiters. In other words, the implicit program of the protesters is that of socialism and the redistribution of wealth.

Putting aside the hyperbole in the movement's claim, it is true that a relatively small minority of people does own the far greater part of the wealth of the country. The figures "1 percent" and "99 percent," however exaggerated, serve to place that fact in the strongest possible light.

What the protesters do not realize is that the wealth of the 1 percent provides the standard of living of the 99 percent. Such a load of bollox

The protesters have no awareness of this, because they see the world through an intellectual lens that is inappropriate to life under capitalism and its market economy. They see a world, still present in some places, and present everywhere a few centuries ago, of self-sufficient farm families, each producing for its own consumption and having no essential connection to markets. What rubbish. Humanity has improved since the Feudal Barons have been removed. You have no freaking idea.

In such a world, if one sees a farmer's field, or his barn, or plow, or draft animals, and asks who do these means of production serve, the answer is the farmer and his family, and no one else. In such a world, apart from the receipt of occasional charity from the owners, those who are not owners of means of production cannot benefit from means of production unless and until they themselves somehow become owners of means of production. They cannot benefit from other people's means of production except by inheriting them or by seizing them. As I have said people and nations have moved on but to justify your stupid daft unjust inequitable distribution of incomes you keep barking about **** that no longer is. Thanks for the history lesson but if you can live in the real world it would be good.

In the world of the protesters, means of production have the same essential status as consumers' goods, which as a rule are of benefit only to their owners. It is because of this that those who share the mentality of the protesters typically depict capitalists as fat men, whose plates are heaped high with food, while the masses of wage earners must live near starvation. According to this mentality, the redistribution of wealth is a matter merely of taking from the overflowing plates of the capitalists and giving to the starving workers. Bollox. It is about paying a fair wage. Most FTSE directors are there NOT because they are creative equivalents of Steve Jobs. They are there because of a leg up from Tom Dick or Harry. Old boys network.

Contrary to such beliefs, in the modern world in which we actually live, the wealth of the capitalists is simply not in the form of consumers' goods to any great extent. Not only is it overwhelmingly in the form of means of production, but those means of production are employed in the production of goods and services that are sold in the market. Totally unlike the conditions of self-sufficient farm families, the physical beneficiaries of the capitalists' means of production are all the members of the general consuming public who buy the capitalists' products. This is pretty pathetic. Compare modern day capitalism to justify fat cat salaries agains self sufficient farming of a few centuries past.

Do you not see this is like applying morality and human rights to judge cave man on what a damn right stupid animal he was in comparison. How bloody marvellous we are compared to our past history ho ho ho. Gloat gloat gloat. Stupid just doesn't say it.


For example, without owning so much as a single share of stock in General Motors or Exxon Mobil, everyone in a capitalist economy who buys the products of these firms benefits from their means of production: the buyer of a GM automobile benefits from the GM factory that produced that automobile; the buyer of Exxon's gasoline benefits from its oil wells, pipelines, and tanker trucks. Furthermore, everyone benefits from their means of production who buys the products of the customers of GM or Exxon, insofar as their means of production indirectly contribute to the products of their customers. For example, the patrons of grocery stores whose goods are delivered in trucks made by GM or fueled by diesel oil produced in Exxon's refineries are beneficiaries of the existence of GM's truck factories and Exxon's refineries. Even everyone who buys the products of the competitors of GM and Exxon, or of the customers of those competitors, benefits from the existence of GM's and Exxon's means of production. This is because GM's and Exxon's means of production result in a more abundant and thus lower-priced supply of the kind of goods the competitors sell. Agree. Notice this is just a description of economic production and economies of scale. No mention on distribution of rewards or income. This is not the issue is it? No one is against capitalism as such. It is the distribution of the cake as to who gets what and how that division is allocated.

In other words, all of us, 100 percent of us, benefit from the wealth of the hated capitalists. No we don't this is more bollox. Tell this to a 6 year old child working in a sweat shop for 5p a day. How does he benefit. Freaking ******s. We benefit without ourselves being capitalists, or being capitalists to any great extent. The protesters are literally kept alive on the foundation of the wealth of the capitalists they hate. As just indicated, the oil fields and pipelines of the hated Exxon corporation provide the fuel that powers the tractors and trucks that are essential to the production and delivery of the food the protesters eat. The protesters and all other haters of capitalists hate the foundations of their own existence. By educating that child and giving it a decent life - that child may well go on to become a Steve Jobs and create many wonderful devices. Steve Jobs in another life perhaps not even as much as 20-30 years ago may have been put into a Victorian work house shop and boys rented out for labour. His mother would have been put into a nut house for becoming pregnant and his dad may well have been lynched for falling in love with a woman outside of his race colour or breed.

You are stupid enough to talk about Steve Jobs capitalistic creation to suit your arguement but very ignorant of anything of the social fabric of society that nurtured and nourished him to produce the man that he became.


The benefit of the capitalists' means of production to non-owners of means of production extends not only to the buyers of the products of those means of production but also to the sellers of the labor that is employed to work with those means of production. The wealth of the capitalists, in other words, is the source both of the supply of products that non-owners of the means of production buy and of the demand for the labor that non-owners of the means of production sell. It follows that the larger the number and greater the wealth of the capitalists, the greater is both the supply of products and the demand for labor, and thus the lower are prices and the higher are wages, i.e., the higher is the standard of living of everyone. Nothing is more to the self-interest of the average person than to live in a society that is filled with multibillionaire capitalists and their corporations, all busy using their vast wealth to produce the products he buys and to compete for the labor he sells. No one is arguing against capitalism. Only about amending it to make it more just and fair.

Nevertheless, the world the protesters yearn for is a world from which the billionaire capitalists and their corporations have been banished, replaced by small, poor producers, who would not be significantly richer than they themselves are, which is to say, impoverished. They expect that in a world of such producers, producers who lack the capital required to produce very much of anything, let alone carry on the mass production of the technologically advanced products of modern capitalism, they will somehow be economically better off than they are now. Obviously, the protesters could not be more deluded.

In addition to not realizing that the wealth of the so-called 1 percent is the foundation of the standard of living of the so-called 99 percent, what the protesters also do not realize is that the "greed" of those who seek to become part of the 1 percent, or to enlarge their position within it, is what serves progressively to improve the standard of living of the 99 percent.

Of course, this does not apply to wealth that has been acquired by such means as obtaining government subsidies or preventing competition through protective tariffs and other forms of government intervention. These are methods that are made possible to the extent that the government is permitted to depart from a policy of strict laissez-faire and thereby arbitrarily reward or punish firms.

Apart from such aberrations, the way that business fortunes are accumulated is by means of the high profits generated by the introduction of new and improved products and more efficient, lower-cost methods of production, followed by the heavy saving and reinvestment of those high profits.

For example, the $6 billion fortune of the late Steve Jobs was built on a foundation of Mr. Jobs having made it possible for Apple Computer to introduce such new and improved products as the iPod, the iPhone, and the iPad, and then heavily saving and reinvesting the share of the profits that came to him.

Two closely related points need to be stressed. First, the fortunes that are accumulated in this way generally serve in the larger-scale production of the very sort of products that provided the profits out of which their accumulation took place. Thus, for example, Jobs's billions serve largely in the production of Apple's products. Similarly, old Henry Ford's great personal fortune, earned on the foundation of introducing major improvements in the efficiency of automobile production, which brought down the price of a new automobile from about $10,000 at the beginning of the 20th Century to $300 in the mid 1920s, was used to make possible the production of millions of Ford automobiles.

Second, the high rates of profit earned on new and improved products and methods of production are temporary. As soon as the production of the new product or use of the new method of production becomes the norm in an industry, it no longer provides any exceptional profitability. Indeed, further improvements again and again render earlier improvements downright unprofitable. For example, the first generation of the iPhone, which was highly profitable just a few years ago, is or soon will be unprofitable, because further advances have rendered it obsolete.

As a result, the accumulation of great business fortunes generally requires the introduction of a series of improvements in products or methods of production. This is what is required to maintain a high rate of profit in the face of competition. For example, Intel's ability to maintain its high rate of profit over the years has depended on its ability to introduce one substantial improvement in its computer chips after another. The net effect has been that computer users have gotten the benefit of improvement after improvement not only at no rise but a drastic decline in the prices of computer chips. Insofar as high profits rest on low costs of production, competition drives prices down to correspond to the lower level of costs, which necessitates the achievement of still further cost reductions to maintain high profits.

The same outcome, of course, applies not only to Intel and microprocessors but also to the rest of the computer industry, where gigabytes of memory and terabytes of hard-drive data storage now sell at prices below the prices of megabytes of memory and hard-drive data storage just a couple of decades ago. Indeed, if one knows how to look, the principle of ever more and better products for less and less applies throughout the economic system. It is present in the production of food, clothing, and shelter as well as in the high-tech industries, and in virtually all industries in between.

It is present in these industries even though the government's inflation of the money supply has caused the prices of their products to rise sharply over the years. Despite this, when calculated in terms of the amount of labor the average person must expend in order to earn the wages needed to enable him to buy these products, their prices have sharply fallen.

This can be seen in the fact that today, the average worker works 40 hours per week, while a worker of a century or so ago worked 60 hours a week. For the 40 hours he works, the average worker of today receives the goods and services comprising the average standard of living of 2011, which includes such things as an automobile, refrigerator, air conditioner, central heating, more and better living space, more and better food and clothing, modern medicine and dentistry, motion pictures, a computer, cell phone, television set, washer-dryer, microwave oven, and so on. The average worker of 1911 either did not have these things at all or had much less of them and of poorer quality.

If we describe the goods and services received by the average worker of today for his 40 hours of labor as being 10 times as great as those received by the average worker of 1911 for his 60 hours of labor, then it follows that, expressed in terms of the amount of labor that needs to be performed today in order to be able to buy goods and services equivalent to the standard of living of 1911, prices have fallen to two-thirds of one-tenth of their level in 1911, i.e., to one-fifteenth of their level in 1911, which is to say, by 93 1/3 percent.

Capitalism — laissez-faire capitalism — is the ideal economic system. It is the embodiment of individual freedom and the pursuit of material self-interest. Its result is the progressive rise in the material well-being of all, manifested in lengthening life spans and ever-improving standards of living.

The economic stagnation and decline, the problems of mass unemployment and growing poverty experienced in the United States in recent years, are the result of violations of individual freedom and the pursuit of material self-interest. The government has enmeshed the economic system in a growing web of paralyzing rules and regulations that prohibit the production of goods and services that people want, while compelling the production of goods and services they don't want, and making the production of virtually everything more and more expensive than it needs to be. For example, prohibitions on the production of atomic power, oil, coal, and natural gas, make the cost of energy higher and in the face of less energy available for use in production, require the performance of more human labor to produce any given quantity of goods. This results in fewer goods being available to remunerate the performance of any given quantity of labor.

Uncontrolled government spending and its accompanying budget deficits and borrowing, along with the income, estate, and capital gains taxes, all levied on funds that otherwise would have been heavily saved and invested, drain capital from the economic system. They thus serve to prevent the increase in both the supply of goods and the demand for labor that more capital in the hands of business would have made possible. They have now gone far enough to have begun actually to reduce the supply of capital in the economic system in comparison with the past.

Capital accumulation is also impaired, and can ultimately be turned into capital decumulation, through the effects of additional government regulation in raising the costs of production and thus reducing its efficiency. This applies to practically all of the regulations imposed by the Environmental Protection Agency, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the National Labor Relations Board, the Food and Drug Administration, and the various other government agencies. The effect of their regulations is that for any given amount of labor performed in the economic system, there is less product than would otherwise be produced.

Now anything that serves to reduce the ability to produce in general serves also to reduce the ability to produce capital goods in particular. Because of such government interference, any given amount of labor and capital goods devoted to the production of capital goods results in a smaller output of capital goods, just as any given quantity of labor and capital goods devoted to the production of consumers' goods results in a smaller output of consumers' goods. At a minimum, the reduced supply of capital goods produced serves to reduce the rate of economic progress. A reduction in the supply of capital goods produced great enough to prevent the addition of any increment to the previously existing supply of capital goods, and thus to put an end to capital accumulation, brings economic progress to a complete halt. A still greater reduction, one that renders the supply of capital goods produced less than the supply being used up in production, constitutes capital decumulation and thus a decline in the economic system's ability to produce. As indicated, the United States already appears to be at this point.

The problem of capital decumulation has been greatly compounded as the result of massive credit expansion induced by the Federal Reserve System and its policy of easy money and artificially low interest rates. This policy led first to a great stock-market bubble and then a vast housing bubble, as large quantities of newly created money poured into the stock market and later the housing market. Between these two bubbles, trillions of dollars of capital were lost. In both instances, vast overconsumption occurred as people raced to buy such things as new automobiles, major appliances, vacations, and all kinds of luxury goods that they would not have believed they could afford in the absence of the effects of credit expansion, often incurring substantial debt in the process.

In the one case, it was the artificial rise in stock prices that misled people into believing that they could afford these things. In the other, it was the artificial rise in home prices that produced this result. The seeming wealth vanished with the fall in stock prices and then again, later, with the fall in housing prices. In the housing bubble, moreover, millions of homes were constructed for people who could not afford to pay for them. All of this represented a huge loss of capital and thus of the ability of business to produce and to employ labor. It is this loss of capital that is responsible for our present problem of mass unemployment.

Despite this loss of capital, unemployment could be eliminated. But given the loss of capital, what would be required to accomplish this is a fall in wage rates. This fall, however, is made virtually illegal as the result of the existence of minimum-wage laws and pro-union legislation. These laws prevent employers from offering the lower wage rates at which the unemployed would be reemployed.

Thus, however ironic it may be, it turns out that virtually all of the problems the Occupy Wall Street protesters complain about are the result of the enactment of policies that they support and in which they fervently believe. It is their mentality, the Marxism that permeates it, and the government policies that are the result, that are responsible for what they complain about. The protesters are, in effect, in the position of being unwitting flagellants. They are beating themselves left and right and as balm for their wounds they demand more whips and chains. They do not see this, because they have not learned to make the connection that in violating the freedom of businessmen and capitalists and seizing and consuming their wealth, i.e., using weapons of pain and suffering against this small hated group, they are destroying the basis of their own well-being.

However much the protesters might deserve to suffer as the result of the injury caused by the enactment of their very own ideas, it would be far better, if they woke up to the modern world and came to understand the actual nature of capitalism, and then directed their ire at the targets that deserve it. In that case, they might make some real contribution to economic well-being, including their own.


I'm tired of reading this bull**** where the author is obviously responding by comparing capitalism to premedieval feudal self subsistance farming prior to industrial revolution in justify what ever voices this pillock of an author is hearing in his head. Self righteous arrogant attitude.

Once again NT you lack ciritical analysis and application of economics. I'm afriad I could only read half of this article before reaching out for the mental sick bucket. Body can only sustain so much bull-**** before a reaction. My stomach is obviously not as strong as yours. :)
 
I'm tired of reading this bull**** where the author is obviously responding by comparing capitalism to premedieval feudal self subsistance farming prior to industrial revolution in justify what ever voices this pillock of an author is hearing in his head. Self righteous arrogant attitude.

Once again NT you lack ciritical analysis and application of economics. I'm afriad I could only read half of this article before reaching out for the mental sick bucket. Body can only sustain so much bull-**** before a reaction. My stomach is obviously not as strong as yours. :)

Actually everything NT said in that made more sense then anything you've ever posted comrade Atilla.

"No we don't this is more bollox. Tell this to a 6 year old child working in a sweat shop for 5p a day. How does he benefit. Freaking ******s" ...

...and you claim NT lacks critical thinking and the application of economics?

By educating that child and giving it a decent life - that child may well go on to become a Steve Jobs and create many wonderful devices.

We benefit through access to ever improving goods and services and our income buying more goods and services through productivity gains.

Assuming the distribution of wealth has been changed through legislation to be what the "occupy ... street" want it to be what incentive does that child have to create any wonderful device? if they earn supernormal profits they'll have action taken against them but supernormal profits are exactly the type of profits required for a rational entrepreneur to take a risk like inventing a whole new technology *. Indeed the incentives in this situation would lead the child to decide to buy some land and be self sufficient. Without the incentive of wealth creation (and more importantly, retention, because in this situation wealth is arbitrarily redistributed when acquired) who would educate this child anyway (apart from family teaching the child to grow food and survive)?

one lesson economics will always teach us is you don't screw with the incentives, you just don't....

* that's why you can apply for a patent so you can be rewarded with supernormal (or monopoly) profits for a time after inventing something.

EDIT sorry NT i pretty much repeated what you said in a less well thought out way lol.
 
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if only this were true. although I believe capitalism is the way to go, not in it's present form..

I agree, because what we have is crony Capitalism not true free-market capitalism. What we have is Keynesian economics with a fascist agenda which has been a dismal failure.

As for the Warren Buffet argument:
The Truth about Billionaire Warren Buffett's Tax Hike Pleas

Do people here just buy everything the mainstream press whores tell them?

As for workers no being paid enough...I encourage you to start your own business and ignore whatever your competitors charge for their product or service. Instead, you should focus on giving your employees the highest salary possible, OK? Find out the highest wages being paid by your competitor and pay your workers double that. If you have to increase the price of your goods or services to achieve this, just explain to your customers that it is because you want to do the best for your workers. See how long you stay in business.

It's all very well calling the entrepreneurs greedy but without them what would you do? You are enjoying their products for the lowest possible price. As a consumer, you are the one dictating the price. The entrepreneur has to provide a product or service that you want and charge a price that you are willing to pay. Don't you always shop around to find the lowest price? Does that make you a greedy capitalist?

If it was as easy as you think for Steve Jobs to have increased the prices on his products to make more money, he would have done it. Wouldn't you? If you could sell something at £20 instead of £10 and become twice as rich, why wouldn't you do it? I think you know the answer why.

I can't explain what the working conditions in China are like but I don't think Apple held a gun to anyones head. I'm sure that Apple looked around to find out where they could get things manufactured for the lowest price.
 
Actually everything NT said in that made more sense then anything you've ever posted comrade Atilla.

"No we don't this is more bollox. Tell this to a 6 year old child working in a sweat shop for 5p a day. How does he benefit. Freaking ******s" ...

...and you claim NT lacks critical thinking and the application of economics?

By educating that child and giving it a decent life - that child may well go on to become a Steve Jobs and create many wonderful devices.

We benefit through access to ever improving goods and services and our income buying more goods and services through productivity gains.

Assuming the distribution of wealth has been changed through legislation to be what the "occupy ... street" want it to be what incentive does that child have to create any wonderful device? if they earn supernormal profits they'll have action taken against them but supernormal profits are exactly the type of profits required for a rational entrepreneur to take a risk like inventing a whole new technology *. Indeed the incentives in this situation would lead the child to decide to buy some land and be self sufficient. Without the incentive of wealth creation (and more importantly, retention, because in this situation wealth is arbitrarily redistributed when acquired) who would educate this child anyway (apart from family teaching the child to grow food and survive)?

one lesson economics will always teach us is you don't screw with the incentives, you just don't....

* that's why you can apply for a patent so you can be rewarded with supernormal (or monopoly) profits for a time after inventing something.

EDIT sorry NT i pretty much repeated what you said in a less well thought out way lol.



I'm afraid you lack Balance in trumpeting virtues of capitalism.

Whilst I agree and concur with much of what is said - if one does not heed the voices and pains of 000s and millions of people demonstrating then something like a flower will flourish out of the smelly well nourished manure rich soil.


They have my full support and have already forwarded some emails with ideas to them. I will be joining their ranks and if they do stand for elections I certainly will be voting for them as opposed to the likes of Cameron or Ed.


Best regards,
(y)
 
ok new trader, i take your point.

with regards to Warren Buffett we will never really know what tax he pays and whether it is right but how can it be that his tax rate is 17.4% and he has employees paying 33% and 41%. with regards to the capital gains tax, if it's 15% for everyone in America then that's ok. Death takes, is he not giving most of his money to the bill and melinda gates foundation. also has Berkshire payed all the taxes it should have done over the years. a couple of years ago Warren Buffett leant 5 billion to Goldman. Goldman along with all the banks in the western world were 100% bankrupt. do you not think he got a nod and a wink to confirm a bail out was on the way. Friends in high place always let slip important information, by mistake of cause. this resulted in a unfair capital gain. not the first time i bet.

I don't believe governments should get more of the profit' s as they are the biggest waste of space, wasting more money than anyone. employees and shareholders should get a larger slice of the pie.

it is my view that if you work for the biggest company in the world and that company has 80 billion dollars in the bank no employee should be working for 2000 dollars a year. and what about the shareholders who put up the money years ago why are they not sharing in the wealth with higher dividends every year.

a ratio of wages between the highest and lowest payed employees 20 to 1 max should do. If the top payed person in a company was payed 20 times the lowest payed then that should be fair reward for their input.
 
ok new trader, i take your point.

with regards to Warren Buffett we will never really know what tax he pays and whether it is right but how can it be that his tax rate is 17.4% and he has employees paying 33% and 41%. with regards to the capital gains tax, if it's 15% for everyone in America then that's ok. Death takes, is he not giving most of his money to the bill and melinda gates foundation. also has Berkshire payed all the taxes it should have done over the years. a couple of years ago Warren Buffett leant 5 billion to Goldman. Goldman along with all the banks in the western world were 100% bankrupt. do you not think he got a nod and a wink to confirm a bail out was on the way. Friends in high place always let slip important information, by mistake of cause. this resulted in a unfair capital gain. not the first time i bet.

I don't believe governments should get more of the profit' s as they are the biggest waste of space, wasting more money than anyone. employees and shareholders should get a larger slice of the pie.

it is my view that if you work for the biggest company in the world and that company has 80 billion dollars in the bank no employee should be working for 2000 dollars a year. and what about the shareholders who put up the money years ago why are they not sharing in the wealth with higher dividends every year.

a ratio of wages between the highest and lowest payed employees 20 to 1 max should do. If the top payed person in a company was payed 20 times the lowest payed then that should be fair reward for their input.



Just a quote from Engradedcow

one lesson economics will always teach us is you don't screw with the incentives, you just don't....


Here is the lack of balance - currently the top brass management in pretty much all walks of life from politicians, councillors, police chiefs to public company management layers are all receiving bonuses and inflated pay irrespective of whether they produce increase in productivity or not.

In case of public companies or fund managers - despite a catastrophic fall in value.

So why are they still earning 1000 time more than the lowest paid employee. eg Bob Diamond earning £15,000,000 p/a before bonus, perks and pension and share options etc etc. otherwise his salary approaches £38m.

If we take the cleaners as earning £15K p/a top end that makes his salary 1000 times the lowest paid worker.


Ying and Yang... We need balance and proportion and harmony. (y)
 
ok new trader, i take your point.

with regards to Warren Buffett we will never really know what tax he pays and whether it is right but how can it be that his tax rate is 17.4% and he has employees paying 33% and 41%. with regards to the capital gains tax, if it's 15% for everyone in America then that's ok. Death takes, is he not giving most of his money to the bill and melinda gates foundation. also has Berkshire payed all the taxes it should have done over the years. a couple of years ago Warren Buffett leant 5 billion to Goldman. Goldman along with all the banks in the western world were 100% bankrupt. do you not think he got a nod and a wink to confirm a bail out was on the way. Friends in high place always let slip important information, by mistake of cause. this resulted in a unfair capital gain. not the first time i bet.

I don't believe governments should get more of the profit' s as they are the biggest waste of space, wasting more money than anyone. employees and shareholders should get a larger slice of the pie.

it is my view that if you work for the biggest company in the world and that company has 80 billion dollars in the bank no employee should be working for 2000 dollars a year. and what about the shareholders who put up the money years ago why are they not sharing in the wealth with higher dividends every year.

a ratio of wages between the highest and lowest payed employees 20 to 1 max should do. If the top payed person in a company was payed 20 times the lowest payed then that should be fair reward for their input.

My whole point is that it is the free market that should determine what is fair instead of some Government elected bureaucrat. The process of wages should be negotiated privately between an employee and an employer. That is how it works between a self-employed contractor and a private individual needing their services. If you wanted your house painted or some plumbing done would you want a Government elected bureaucrat dictating the minimum you are allowed to pay them?

I am a stock market investor and I allocate my capital to different companies and if they don’t perform I sell out. The beauty of the free market is that I get to choose how I invest my money whereas the Government on the other hand takes my money by force and spends it the way it chooses, and there are some idiots here who think the Government should take more of it...as if they are doing a good job with what they have already taken :rolleyes:
 
I am a stock market investor and I allocate my capital to different companies and if they don’t perform I sell out. The beauty of the free market is that I get to choose how I invest my money whereas the Government on the other hand takes my money by force and spends it the way it chooses, and there are some idiots here who think the Government should take more of it...as if they are doing a good job with what they have already taken


I think we will have to differ, i do not believe the free markets being completely free like you say would work or are working for the good of all or at least the majority.

take the stockmarket as you are someone who invests in it, you are free to buy and sell as you wish. What about the fund managers/pension funds who the average person invests with. they cannot buy and sell as they wish, they must have exposure to both shares and bonds, they must be 90/95% invested at all times. Just imagine if they were all free to do what you do sometimes 100% shares, sometimes 100% bonds, sometimes 100% out of the market. the market could move 10% up or down every month, who would invest in it then.where would companies get their capital from.

Glencore is a good example, when it listed it went straight into the ftse 100 which forced all the tracker funds to buy their shares. it was a stich up job to get a high price for the ipo, since then it has only gone down leaving fund managers/pension funds with a loss.

if we were a free market their would not be tax havens for 98 of the 100 ftse 100 companies to hide their profits.
when the free markets mess up like now they should have to bale themselves out. hair cuts for bond holders, rights issues, or close the doors and move on.
governments, people and companies all need each other it's just a matter of sharing the pie.
we need to work out a way to level off the cycles so the booms and busts are limited.
 
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The free market at work, exactly as I described.

Netflix stock plunges after company reveals 800,000 customers quit in biggest loss to date

"Netflix lost its lustre among consumers and investors by raising subscription prices as much as 60 per cent in the U.S. and bungling an attempt to spin off its DVD-by-mail rental service into a new company called Qwikster"

Netflix loses 800,000 US subscribers in a single quarter | Mail Online


So what have you anti-capitalists got to say about that? What do you want your Government to do about it?:rolleyes:
 
The free market at work, exactly as I described.

Netflix stock plunges after company reveals 800,000 customers quit in biggest loss to date

"Netflix lost its lustre among consumers and investors by raising subscription prices as much as 60 per cent in the U.S. and bungling an attempt to spin off its DVD-by-mail rental service into a new company called Qwikster"

Netflix loses 800,000 US subscribers in a single quarter | Mail Online


So what have you anti-capitalists got to say about that? What do you want your Government to do about it?:rolleyes:

i am not anti capitalist, but i would say if employees at netflex are going to loose their jobs , while the management keep bonuses or stock options and their large wages then i have problem with it.
 
The free market at work, exactly as I described.

Netflix stock plunges after company reveals 800,000 customers quit in biggest loss to date

"Netflix lost its lustre among consumers and investors by raising subscription prices as much as 60 per cent in the U.S. and bungling an attempt to spin off its DVD-by-mail rental service into a new company called Qwikster"

Netflix loses 800,000 US subscribers in a single quarter | Mail Online


So what have you anti-capitalists got to say about that? What do you want your Government to do about it?:rolleyes:


NT you accuse anyone of disagreeing with your view of the world and free markets as anti-capitalist.

Do you have the ability to analyse and apply anything outside of your dellusional mind?
 
leverage is the problem, fiat currency printing is used to create large amounts of inflation to try and wipe out the bad debts from leverage.
if all products and services were paid for with cash their would be no bad debts, their would be very little need to print money except to create a bit of inflation. as i have stated before the cost of leverage is what is making a mess of the world economy.most currency printing happens when we have a crisis, all caused by leverage.
 
leverage is the problem, fiat currency printing is used to create large amounts of inflation to try and wipe out the bad debts from leverage.
if all products and services were paid for with cash their would be no bad debts, their would be very little need to print money except to create a bit of inflation. as i have stated before the cost of leverage is what is making a mess of the world economy.most currency printing happens when we have a crisis, all caused by leverage.

This thread is like watching the 10 o'clock news nowadays. The consensus trade is doom for the world. I'd get buying if i were you, at least for the next bubble anyway. This isn't the end......yet.
 
leverage is the problem, fiat currency printing is used to create large amounts of inflation to try and wipe out the bad debts from leverage.
if all products and services were paid for with cash their would be no bad debts, their would be very little need to print money except to create a bit of inflation. as i have stated before the cost of leverage is what is making a mess of the world economy.most currency printing happens when we have a crisis, all caused by leverage.
What a strange thing it is to hear a phrase like "leverage is the problem" on a trading forum...
 
it might be strange, but that does not make it wrong. it is the root cause of all our problems today. just because leverage is their, it does not mean you should max out on it, be it trading or life in general.
 
What a strange thing it is to hear a phrase like "leverage is the problem" on a trading forum...


Coupled with derivatives, leverage masks risks and makes transparency and exposure to be mere words.

For investment banks to borrow on short term, lend long term with all this gobledegook in the middle called creative genious with no real productivity gains other than playing with money is the root cause of our predicament.

During conception I think it was labeled the free self regulated big bang market place.

Look how bloody marvellous we are ;)
 
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