Iraq & Afghanistan and US & UK

[Atilla]

Yes Pat, that's the most frightening part isn't it?

He was no goat herder.
He had a wife, a child, a decent house to live in, a job, free healthcare, free education, freedom of expression, freedom to practice his religion, the right to vote.

He lived amongst us, he spoke with a broad Yorkshire accent, he grew up here.

But take such a person, fill his head with religious mush, tell him it is God's will that he should carry a bomb onto a packed tube train, and he is reduced to one heck of a smart bomb!

dd

I think you could achieve the same result with a donkey carrying a bomb led by a carrot too!

Dilemma: Is it really worth spending billions on smart technology when dumb ass will do?

 

[maiden22]

Why wouldn't you?

You seem to have personally identified quickly and easily several reasons and situations where people would think it reasonable to go to war these days. Please do not include me in your 'we' perspective of what is legitimate.

Israel and Jewish people have a right to exist imho along with Palestinians.

However, to get Ethiopian and Russians Jews to leave their homes and locate in a very small place like Israel in order to popullate the country and then treat them differently whilst causing the displacement of Palesitinians is very wrong.

To suggest Jews are Gods chosen people and then have them endure the worst suffering through the centuries has to be some bizarre God dellusion - culminating in the Holocaust. 😱 Gods chosen people... :-0 Not only that to claim it is the promised land and religious entitlement is ridiculous imo...

To top it off, Jesus a Jew is crusified by the Romans.

They then convert to Christianity and Catholicism and in due course elect a key pagan ritual festival 'the murderers of Christ' to celebrate his Kingdom on earth whilst continueing persecuting Jews which the Son of God, of the chosen people happened to be.

Catholics in order to further aim the cause, kill women as witches, casting cardinal desire of the flesh as sin (instead of natural beauty endowed on the human species). They subsequently call on celibacy in the service of the Church and promote the family by giving titles such as father, mother, sister and brother as titles. Make it up as one goes along, God becomes thy father, mother=Virgin Mary, sisters and brothers the monks and nuns of the order and ofcourse thy son the baby Jesus.

Another tribe of people in the same region don't wish to feel left out and end up forging another religion Islam and between the three of them fight after a monolithic God who is suppose to rule the World and the Universe. Each prescribing to their unique version of adhering to his set of rules. God (thy father) through out this horrific blood shed stands aside whilst his children bludgeon each other to a pulp. 😱


What gets up my nose is they call these lands holy lands???? :-0😱:-0


What on earth can be holy about these lands where so much death and blood shed has been spilled. To cast it some divine significance - if there is a benevolent God out there - then it is even worse to kill in his name.


Religions and nations are merely structural apparatus for controlling people and administering power. They are no different to wearing a football shirt.


To further the cause, there are American Jews, Russian Jews and English Jews. What difference does it make where you are a Jew? Is there some additional divinity to proximating to the holy lands.

This same arguement would apply to all faiths. Why is any one location any more significant than any other on planet earth?

This is about as stupid as consuming tiger paws thinking they will make you as strong and powerful as a tiger. Primitive human thought.

If you got all the Jews to migrate to Israel would there be enough territory for all. Would they be judged on how near they are to the wall. Are the muslims living in Mecca any better than those living in Pakistan or Africa?

All this stuff is stupid.

There are no free thinkers.

Just as many people supported the war in Iraq and Afghanistan now they may well question why they were so easily led up the garden path...

You are very much at one level in your objective analysis of "reading between the lines"...


Sometimes you are so up your own vision and perspective of the global events it is like you are having a discussion with your self. :cheesy:

I'm struggling to make sense of your argument to be honest, which makes it a little difficult to reply.

 

[Atilla]

I'm struggling to make sense of your argument to be honest, which makes it a little difficult to reply.

I often fine my self trying to make sense of what our governments, politicians and religious leaders tell us contrary to what is!

As long as it raises some questions in your mind and you seek the answers / explanations for events in trying to make sense of them - that would be good. 👍

 

[Pat494]

I often fine my self trying to make sense of what our governments, politicians and religious leaders tell us contrary to what is!

As long as it raises some questions in your mind and you seek the answers / explanations for events in trying to make sense of them - that would be good. 👍

War creates its own fog but the religious, politicians, salesmen etc. create theirs to woo the people. They use catchy words and concepts like new ( Labour ), the American dream, patriotism, nationalism etc. etc.

What they really mean is:-

give us the power and the money you stupid s*ds !!

Seems simple enough to me. Its when you believe their bullsh*t that you may well flounder

 

[maiden22]

War creates its own fog but the religious, politicians, salesmen etc. create theirs to woo the people. They use catchy words and concepts like new ( Labour ), the American dream, patriotism, nationalism etc. etc.

What they really mean is:-

give us the power and the money you stupid s*ds !!

Seems simple enough to me. Its when you believe their bullsh*t that you may well flounder

Certainly there seems to be a significant disconnect between rulers and public. I can discern very little difference between the main political parties in the UK, and struggle to understand the enthusiam for Cameron say, and the vitriol heaped upon Brown. In what way do people imagine that they would be different? And why the torrent of hatred and personal abuse now directed at Brown? What is there about our situation today that wasn't predictable in 1997 or the years immediately following, when all and sundry were proclaiming his genius? The economic mismanagement, the assault on liberty, the contempt for people and nation, the incontinent dishonesty - all of this was perfectly plain 12 years ago.

The three main parties are not representatives of differing factions and opinions in the country. They are a unified political class whose members are but interchangeable. Their agendas are the same.

 

[dcraig1]

Certainly there seems to be a significant disconnect between rulers and public. I can discern very little difference between the main political parties in the UK, and struggle to understand the enthusiam for Cameron say, and the vitriol heaped upon Brown. In what way do people imagine that they would be different? And why the torrent of hatred and personal abuse now directed at Brown? What is there about our situation today that wasn't predictable in 1997 or the years immediately following, when all and sundry were proclaiming his genius? The economic mismanagement, the assault on liberty, the contempt for people and nation, the incontinent dishonesty - all of this was perfectly plain 12 years ago.

The three main parties are not representatives of differing factions and opinions in the country. They are a unified political class whose members are but interchangeable. Their agendas are the same.

maiden22, for once I mostly agree with you! I also find the hatred of Brown to disproportionate. He may not be the most charismatic pollie ever, or even the sharpest tool in the box, but I would really like to hear a convincing argument that things would be substantially different if the Tories were in power. And look on the bright side - Blair could still be there! Would the war in Iraq not have happened? Would the response to the financial crisis differed in substance? Would government have been more open?

There is some difference between the major parties and it is occasionally significant, but often you've got to look hard to find it. The situation is much the same in all the english speaking western countries.

 

[maiden22]

maiden22, for once I mostly agree with you! I also find the hatred of Brown to disproportionate. He may not be the most charismatic pollie ever, or even the sharpest tool in the box, but I would really like to hear a convincing argument that things would be substantially different if the Tories were in power. And look on the bright side - Blair could still be there! Would the war in Iraq not have happened? Would the response to the financial crisis differed in substance? Would government have been more open?

There is some difference between the major parties and it is occasionally significant, but often you've got to look hard to find it. The situation is much the same in all the english speaking western countries.

Hurrah 😆!

This is exactly it - go back a couple of years, the Tories were blathering about sharing the proceeds of growth, matching spending plans and so on. Now we're expected to believe that they would have been different and saw this coming all along.

Remember when everyone wanted to get rid of Blair? Tainted by wars, sleaze, scandal, waste, incompetence and all the rest. Not that he wasn't of course, but could anyone seriously have believed that he could go to war without at least Brown's acceptance? The two share blame (and what credit there is 😆) equally.

The political media in this country is a joke - the members of a herd of sheep show greater capacity for independent thought.

 

[dcraig1]

"American-led troops were accused yesterday of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead.

Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. Locals said that some victims were handcuffed before being killed. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6971638.ece

"An attack by a suicide bomber at a military base in eastern Afghanistan on Wednesday killed eight Americans believed to be CIA employees, a senior U.S. official told CNN."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/12/30/afghanistan.us.casualties/index.html

Anybody see a connection?

 

[Pat494]

"American-led troops were accused yesterday of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead.

Afghan government investigators said that eight schoolchildren were killed, all but one of them from the same family. Locals said that some victims were handcuffed before being killed. "

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6971638.ece

"An attack by a suicide bomber at a military base in eastern Afghanistan on Wednesday killed eight Americans believed to be CIA employees, a senior U.S. official told CNN."

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/12/30/afghanistan.us.casualties/index.html

Anybody see a connection?

Local politics of hate fuelled by rumour and lies are the standard for that part of the world and have been for centuries. It is stoked up now by DVD etc. now.

 

[Atilla]

Local politics of hate fuelled by rumour and lies are the standard for that part of the world and have been for centuries. It is stoked up now by DVD etc. now.

You must be kidding Pat. I would have said likewise of our own governments manipulating public opinion.

Compare monies spent on war and killing people compared to that spent on internal defence and police force. Apparently our airports do not have the kind of screening devices to detect such devices.

I reckon Obama is right to rebuke and reprimand the CIA expecting more from them. Consider how much they have spent on defence compared to killing people and fighting wars.

Key distinction - there is not much money in surveillance and detection devices compared to war machinary. One helicopter costs around 20-40 million. Supporting troops with all the logistics costs the tax payer stupid sums of money.

Moreover, after all the trillions we are generating these terrorists. I fathom to understand which nation would accept foreign troops in their territory these days???

Yes public here and the US are led to think and believe we are out there protecting their democratic freedoms and training them so they can better look after their 'OWN' democratic freedoms.

WHAT A LOAD OF rumour!!! 😆

However, Pentagon and many other defence manufacturers of WMDs need the business and so if they turn a blind eye to a terrorist (EVEN WHEN HIS DADDY HAS TRIED TO INFORM US OF HIS SUSPECT VIEWS), some very old, high and hairy eye brows need to be raised???

I wouldn't be surprised if this kind of thing is let through to justify their stupid wars.

Why would the authorities question and deny Cat Stevens entry into the US and not this current mule pointed at by his daddy???

 

[Atilla]

Listening to Radio 4 recently which did a superb summary of the two wars and Bush's policies provided the following statistic in comparison to peace keeping efforts after the Bosnian war.

Amount of resources spent in the two countries in comparison to Bosnia were;

Afghanistan 1-50
Iraq 1-20

Considering size and popullation of the two countries (compared to Bosnia) and coupled with level of destruction or lack of infrastructure - expectations for armies to deliver results are clearly unrealistic.

 

[Atilla]

Britain raises terror threat level to "severe"

Am I alone in thinking the new heightened threat notice is to save the face of our politicians?

Why not tell us nature of attack?

Terrorists watching news have already got a heads up if the announcement is true so where is the national security reason for withholding information.

What are we to think - terrorists think officials are guessing or fishing and continue or turn afraid and chicken out.


Message is "look it is them wanting to attack our civilised world and democratic freedoms they don't like. The past threat was real and so we went to war." They (the mighty hidden elite) are sending hidden subliminal messages.

Mrs Kinnock says currency fluctuation has created a £100m shortfall in fighting terrorism. We have shortage of money for scanners at airports.

We spend absolutely billions going to fight unjust wars killing innocent civilians and can't find couple of million to defend country against terrorists we have created.



Policy is about as clear as mud and our politicians bent as pipes on sewage waste... Filthy dirty stealing useless *******s... At least a bent pipe has a use. 😡

 

[Pat494]

I got a great idea of how to save money ( the Honourable Members have to have their usual 30% pay rise I suppose )

You recruit for the Army
1.the over 50s - think of the savings to the NHS eventually
2. Anyone with over 1 year prison sentence have to serve in the front line
3. All lunatics ( err I mean intellectually disadvantaged ) straight into the front line
4. Anyone in a hospice/ old folks home

To this happy band issue only non lethal weapons such as water pistols and pea shooters.

😱

 

[zambuck]

.....Send EDF and BNP and let them loose in Iraqi and Afghani bases of taleban.....!

 

[Atilla]

I got a great idea of how to save money ( the Honourable Members have to have their usual 30% pay rise I suppose )

You recruit for the Army
1.the over 50s - think of the savings to the NHS eventually
2. Anyone with over 1 year prison sentence have to serve in the front line
3. All lunatics ( err I mean intellectually disadvantaged ) straight into the front line
4. Anyone in a hospice/ old folks home

To this happy band issue only non lethal weapons such as water pistols and pea shooters.

😱

Seems very similar to the US blue book for recruitment!

The only difference is the over 50s - lunatics and geriatics are planning and running the logistics of supplying the troops.

 

[Atilla]

Seems very similar to the US blue book for recruitment!

The only difference is the over 50s - lunatics and geriatics are planning and running the logistics of supplying the troops.

Interesting blend of view from BBC4 radio on the President Bliar questioning last Friday...

It is 48 minutes long but nice mix of opinions.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00q4430

 

[Pat494]

Blair imho showed a complete lack of competence over the Iraq war because:-
1. No WMDs
2. No alliances between Saddam and Al Quaeda
3. No alliances between Iraq and Iran - they had just fought a war fgs
4.Bankrupted the West for no good reason. Saddam, tho evil despot, did keep the lid on extremists.

The clown still can't see he made the totally wrong call and says he would do the whole thing over again if he got the opportunity on Iran.
He should never have been elected leader of the Labour party or Prime Minister of UK.
He's just a part of the 1960s Marxist, University moles who should have been ignored.

 

[dcraig1]

http://www.arrestblair.org/blairs-crimes

 

[Atilla]

http://www.arrestblair.org/blairs-crimes

A picture paints a thousand words. That smug git is so pleased with him self he'd do it all over again...

Why not cut your nose off to spite your face?


I haven't been posting but really everytime I see news like this my blood pressure goes up.

Roadside bombs kill two soldiers in Afghanistan

Not only that we are paying the Afghans not to fight. One phone in person posed the question why don't not pay the Afghans to shoot at us and bring the troops back and save the money.

It is absolutely a pathetic war - as to what we are fighting... The US have bombed and terrorised two nations - and somehow we get to tidy up the mess.

Paying the Afghans off is more likely to turn more of them into terrorists so they can get a pay off.

For what period of time is this to be maintained - 15 years... 😱


Have I lost the plot or is there something so very wrong with our leaders accepting anything like this?

 

[Atilla]

Ministers told of Iraq kit risk - armed forces chief

In order to maintain his political persuasion to work their charms President Bliar specifically put the lives of soldiers at risk.

What other conclusion can anyone draw from this piece of news item???


That guy should have his blood money taken away from him and serves some time imo. Some freaking interrogation. More like a bloomin soap box to promote his image... I wonder how much they payed the ******* for his appearance?