Iraq & Afghanistan and US & UK

[Trader333]

Well you wouldn't want to die if you had cartloads of dosh to spend, now would you ? be honest !!

Why would you be more likely to want to die if you didn't have cartloads of dosh ? Most people don't want to die regardless of their wealth.


Paul

 

[Pat494]

Why would you be more likely to want to die if you didn't have cartloads of dosh ? Most people don't want to die regardless of their wealth.


Paul

Religious and political fanatics seem to care little for the baubles of life or even life itself.
Good riddance is what I say to those - there should be enough bullets to push them into their next life of paradise. Because there aren't enough sanitoriums to treat all the world's looneys

 

[Atilla]

There can be some reasons for attacking another country (legitimate ones I mean, not the ones favoured by African maniacs).

Slightly out of date, but if one of your neighbours is run by Nasser and it's 1967, a good reason would be self-preservation.

Or more topical, if one of your near neighbours is run by lunatics who are developing nuclear weapons, and has publicly called for you to be wiped off the map, then an airstrike or two might be in order - again for self-preservation.

Would you perceive as a legitimate reason in that case for the Palestinians to attack Israel. Because the expansion of the settlements is causing the displacement and expulsion of the endegenous popullation who has to endure hardships placed to drive them away from their lands?

 

[jaspertrademaster]

Only cowards send others to do their fighting. It is easy to talk big when others are the ones getting their hands dirty.

 

[Trader333]

Religious and political fanatics seem to care little for the baubles of life or even life itself.
Good riddance is what I say to those - there should be enough bullets to push them into their next life of paradise. Because there aren't enough sanitoriums to treat all the world's looneys

This has nothing to do with wealth or lack of it.


Paul

 

[Atilla]

This has nothing to do with wealth or lack of it.


Paul

Would the mathematical equation


wealthy = atheist
poor = believer


be approximately true?


Marx
The quotation, in context, reads as follows (emphasis added):

Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

 

[Trader333]

Would the mathematical equation


wealthy = atheist
poor = believer


be approximately true?

I can see where you are coming from but this is not the case in my experience. In the US there is a large amount of wealth from those who actually believe that this is what God and Jesus wants for them. The same applies in the Oil rich nations of the Middle East where there is a strong faith in Islam but also a large degree of wealth.


Paul

 

[zambuck]

....Large amount of wealth in US....but very disproportionately scattered.....

....Large amount of wealth in Middle East......but very disproportionately scattered.....

...There is a belief that just because by calculating per capita income and then averaging out a country can be rich or poor....

...There are large amount of ghettos, with very illiterate people in US....and there are large amount of wealthy and very literate people in India.....but how do the country rate on wealth stakes..?

I genrally find that very wealthy and very poor are the most religious...one seeks salvation and the other wealth.....and both hope that God will provide..!

 

[Pat494]

The trillion dollar defence industry and militaries around the world would be unemployed without a bogeyman to fight and don't they know it. The casualties in Afghanistan are probably less than those killed in road accidents, but the taxpayers have to fork out more billions for more weapons, more boots on the ground, more armour, more civilian ngos etc. etc.
Where would all these millions of people be if they were'nt locked into a never ending war on a phantom army of religious/political nuts ?

They have made an industry out of it, but it keeps the unemployment figures down

Why not recruit over 50s for active service. Would save billions in nhs and pensions.
Criminals too. Costs similiar to send a boy to Eton as it does to keep a prisoner in jail !!
:clap:

 

[Atilla]

The trillion dollar defence industry and militaries around the world would be unemployed without a bogeyman to fight and don't they know it. The casualties in Afghanistan are probably less than those killed in road accidents, but the taxpayers have to fork out more billions for more weapons, more boots on the ground, more armour, more civilian ngos etc. etc.
Where would all these millions of people be if they were'nt locked into a never ending war on a phantom army of religious/political nuts ?

They have made an industry out of it, but it keeps the unemployment figures down

Why not recruit over 50s for active service. Would save billions in nhs and pensions.
Criminals too. Costs similiar to send a boy to Eton as it does to keep a prisoner in jail !!
:clap:

Superb top post Pat, probably as I agree with your point of views 100%

Older folk who are no doubt wiser know the folly of war and would be less inclined to fight then young hot heads with sponge like brains who are prepared to accept the fodder passed down to them.

Also, the young who have so much life ahead of them value it less than old people who then to value life more (as they have less in years left) and try to cling on as long as possible. Almost like supply and demand theorem really.


Regarding religion and wealth another point of view imo is

Believer = poor = uneducated

Non-Believer = wealthy = educated


I know this is mass generalisation and one can find examples that disproves either chain I think it is likely to be statistics that are likely to point to the real solution in this case in terms of mass numbers. I do feel though the better one is educated and read with scientific awareness the more one sheds the robes and peers into space...

 

[Trader333]

Older folk who are no doubt wiser know the folly of war and would be less inclined to fight then young hot heads with sponge like brains who are prepared to accept the fodder passed down to them.

The mass peace movements of the 1960s were mostly from young and not old people.


Paul

 

[Atilla]

The mass peace movements of the 1960s were mostly from young and not old people.


Paul

Yes and the average age of the 60,000 American deaths in the Vietnam war was
nana-nineteen.... If I remember from an old tune...

Young hot heads more likely up for a fight than old bidders who prefer to sit down and talk over a pipe in front of a warm fire with cosy slippers... imo.

 

[Pat494]

Superb top post Pat, probably as I agree with your point of views 100%



Regarding religion and wealth another point of view imo is

Believer = poor = uneducated

Non-Believer = wealthy = educated


I know this is mass generalisation and one can find examples that disproves either chain I think it is likely to be statistics that are likely to point to the real solution in this case in terms of mass numbers. I do feel though the better one is educated and read with scientific awareness the more one sheds the robes and peers into space...

That was what shocked so many educated people in the west. I think most of the 911 and July bombers weren't uneducated, living in a mud hut with no prospects. Oh no it was just the opposite. Even Bin Laden comes from a very wealthy family. They lived amongst us and then opted for an explosive and early end !! Mystifying really. Perhaps they should have taken up sport to get the bile outa their systems.

 

[maiden22]

That was what shocked so many educated people in the west. I think most of the 911 and July bombers weren't uneducated, living in a mud hut with no prospects. Oh no it was just the opposite. Even Bin Laden comes from a very wealthy family. They lived amongst us and then opted for an explosive and early end !! Mystifying really. Perhaps they should have taken up sport to get the bile outa their systems.

Actually it's this that I find mystifying - personally I think it says more about us in the West than it does about them.

 

[maiden22]

Would you perceive as a legitimate reason in that case for the Palestinians to attack Israel. Because the expansion of the settlements is causing the displacement and expulsion of the endegenous popullation who has to endure hardships placed to drive them away from their lands?

No I wouldn't, although I'm sure that they do, and reading between the lines it seems that you agree with them. So we've quickly and easily identified several reasons and situations where people would think it reasonable to go to war these days.

 

[maiden22]

The trillion dollar defence industry and militaries around the world would be unemployed without a bogeyman to fight and don't they know it.

The bogeymen are real. Without effective miitary deterents ranged against them, there are plenty of very brutal men that would set out and wouldn't stop until they bumped into their own a***s.

 

[Pat494]

Actually it's this that I find mystifying - personally I think it says more about us in the West than it does about them.

Possibly the ages old custom of settling any argument with the tried and trusted method of violence.
Since the mists of time, people, especially from that area, have carried weapons. Police forces are a Western invention. The strong ruled not those necessarily with "right" on their side. Hence the backward state of the area. They haven't progressed much since Biblical times until recently.

 

[Atilla]

No I wouldn't, although I'm sure that they do, and reading between the lines it seems that you agree with them. So we've quickly and easily identified several reasons and situations where people would think it reasonable to go to war these days.

Why wouldn't you?

You seem to have personally identified quickly and easily several reasons and situations where people would think it reasonable to go to war these days. Please do not include me in your 'we' perspective of what is legitimate.

Israel and Jewish people have a right to exist imho along with Palestinians.

However, to get Ethiopian and Russians Jews to leave their homes and locate in a very small place like Israel in order to popullate the country and then treat them differently whilst causing the displacement of Palesitinians is very wrong.

To suggest Jews are Gods chosen people and then have them endure the worst suffering through the centuries has to be some bizarre God dellusion - culminating in the Holocaust. Gods chosen people... :-0 Not only that to claim it is the promised land and religious entitlement is ridiculous imo...

To top it off, Jesus a Jew is crusified by the Romans.

They then convert to Christianity and Catholicism and in due course elect a key pagan ritual festival 'the murderers of Christ' to celebrate his Kingdom on earth whilst continueing persecuting Jews which the Son of God, of the chosen people happened to be.

Catholics in order to further aim the cause, kill women as witches, casting cardinal desire of the flesh as sin (instead of natural beauty endowed on the human species). They subsequently call on celibacy in the service of the Church and promote the family by giving titles such as father, mother, sister and brother as titles. Make it up as one goes along, God becomes thy father, mother=Virgin Mary, sisters and brothers the monks and nuns of the order and ofcourse thy son the baby Jesus.

Another tribe of people in the same region don't wish to feel left out and end up forging another religion Islam and between the three of them fight after a monolithic God who is suppose to rule the World and the Universe. Each prescribing to their unique version of adhering to his set of rules. God (thy father) through out this horrific blood shed stands aside whilst his children bludgeon each other to a pulp.


What gets up my nose is they call these lands holy lands???? :-0:-0


What on earth can be holy about these lands where so much death and blood shed has been spilled. To cast it some divine significance - if there is a benevolent God out there - then it is even worse to kill in his name.


Religions and nations are merely structural apparatus for controlling people and administering power. They are no different to wearing a football shirt.


To further the cause, there are American Jews, Russian Jews and English Jews. What difference does it make where you are a Jew? Is there some additional divinity to proximating to the holy lands.

This same arguement would apply to all faiths. Why is any one location any more significant than any other on planet earth?

This is about as stupid as consuming tiger paws thinking they will make you as strong and powerful as a tiger. Primitive human thought.

If you got all the Jews to migrate to Israel would there be enough territory for all. Would they be judged on how near they are to the wall. Are the muslims living in Mecca any better than those living in Pakistan or Africa?

All this stuff is stupid.

There are no free thinkers.

Just as many people supported the war in Iraq and Afghanistan now they may well question why they were so easily led up the garden path...

You are very much at one level in your objective analysis of "reading between the lines"...


Sometimes you are so up your own vision and perspective of the global events it is like you are having a discussion with your self. :cheesy:

 

[zambuck]

The answer is clear - victory in war is not dependent upon gaining advantage from the victory.

Cows are four-legged animals but not all four-legged...oh sod it, I give up .

....Ah I see....So one will go to war and then seek out all poor suffering souls...feed then...clothe them...hand then a sandwich, and then pull back...and say weren't we nice...we gained nothing from it...Sure we blasted hell out of them in the first instance..!

...What are you trying to say...?

 

[dick_dastardly]

That was what shocked so many educated people in the west. I think most of the 911 and July bombers weren't uneducated, living in a mud hut with no prospects. Oh no it was just the opposite. Even Bin Laden comes from a very wealthy family. They lived amongst us and then opted for an explosive and early end !! Mystifying really. Perhaps they should have taken up sport to get the bile outa their systems.

Yes Pat, that's the most frightening part isn't it?

He was no goat herder.
He had a wife, a child, a decent house to live in, a job, free healthcare, free education, freedom of expression, freedom to practice his religion, the right to vote.

He lived amongst us, he spoke with a broad Yorkshire accent, he grew up here.

But take such a person, fill his head with religious mush, tell him it is God's will that he should carry a bomb onto a packed tube train, and he is reduced to one heck of a smart bomb!

dd