Inflation tax

[new_trader]

No i'm not stating facts, i'm proposing a new tax system through inflation.I thought it would be an interesting discussion

AND YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!

INFLATION IS A TAX ALREADY BEING USED BY GOVERMENTS...FFS!!!

But no Government will admit it openly because it is a dishonest tax. They will blame speculators or the weather or seasonal conditions, but they will never, ever, ever admit that inflation is a tax. Are you really as dense as you make out?
Have you ever heard the term 'Stealth tax'?

And what can people buy with that SPECIFIC WEIGHT OF GOLD! ...Answer = what ever the seller of goods thinks its worth at that time .

Correct, that is a free market. When you make a contract under a gold standard, you know that you will be paid an amount that will not change through Government interference. Imagine agreeing to sell something for 1 ounce of gold and then the government changes the number of grams in a troy ounce!

Think of it this way: If you lend a friend a DVD for 5 years with no interest you would expect to get the DVD back, right? Not half a DVD or less. You will get a FULL DVD.

But, if you lent him the equivalent of a DVD in £, interest free, in 5 years time when he pays you back, the money might be able to buy a DVD or it might not. Maybe it will buy more than one DVD or maybe less.

Do you see the difference? With the first contract you are 100% certain you will get a FULL DVD in 5 years time. With the second contract you are UNCERTAIN.

 

[price777999]

I'd rather pay £0.00000000010 for a loaf of bread than £1000000000.00 for a loaf of bread

Yes i would too ,but you must agree that it would not be very convenient ?

And if you also agree that there should be some kind of tax system ? Why not use the new mined gold or fiat or whatever for the building of new roads etc.
Creating an efficient tax system and a convenient currency ?

 

[new_trader]

Yes i would too ,but you must agree that it would not be very convenient ?

And if you also agree that there should be some kind of tax system ? Why not use the new mined gold or fiat or whatever for the building of new roads etc.
Creating an efficient tax system and a convenient currency ?

I don't understand your point about convenience, it makes absolutely and utterly no sense whatsoever. The quality of money is much more important than what you call it. We could define a gold standard right now by saying that £1 = 1/1000 of a troy ounce which is roughly the correct value. Prices would then (according to historical precedent) gently fall for many things. Providing the Government doesn't interfere. I am talking a gentle price deflation of 1-2 %/ year for many things being produced.

Look at how the price of consumer electronics has fallen over the years. This is because productivity of those things is much higher than money supply growth.

 

[price777999]

AND YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!

INFLATION IS A TAX ALREADY BEING USED BY GOVERMENTS...FFS!!!

But no Government will admit it openly because it is a dishonest tax. They will blame speculators or the weather or seasonal conditions, but they will never, ever, ever admit that inflation is a tax. Are you really as dense as you make out?
Have you ever heard the term 'Stealth tax'?

Yes and im proposing it should be used in a fair way through public services instead of the new printed money being abused by private banks .

Are you really as dense as you make out?

 

[price777999]

I don't understand your point about convenience, it makes absolutely and utterly no sense whatsoever. The quality of money is much more important than what you call it. We could define a gold standard right now by saying that £1 = 1/1000 of a troy ounce which is roughly the correct value. Prices would then (according to historical precedent) gently fall for many things. Providing the Government doesn't interfere. I am talking a gentle price deflation of 1-2 %/ year for many things being produced.

Look at how the price of consumer electronics has fallen over the years. This is because productivity of those things is much higher than money supply growth.

Yes that would be ok but what about the tax system ? If you agree there should be tax ? that means energy wasted on accountants tax men etc.So why not inflate the currency buy 1-2% per year and use it for public services cutting out accountants and inefficiency and creating a stable currency? (no inflation or deflation)

 

[new_trader]

Yes and im proposing it should be used in a fair way through public services instead of the new printed money being abused by private banks .

B.S!

You said:

For example we print money to build schools ,hospitals,roads ,etc.Then we have a tax free , free market economy, eliminating the need for accountants and therefor being more efficient .

You presented a hypothetical as if it would make things more efficient. Only now you are changing your argument to one where new money is being abused by private banks

Why do you think so many people want a gold standard? It is precisely to prevent the very abuses going on right now, already, via inflation. Private banks, special interest groups, Governments buying votes by promising more than can be afforded by tax revenues...

C'mon price777999, stop bullsh!tting me with your constant "I don't understand what you meant" and now changing the argument altogether...

YOU don't understand what you are talking about and what makes matters worse is that you do not understand that you do not understand!

 

[price777999]

AND YOU STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!

INFLATION IS A TAX ALREADY BEING USED BY GOVERMENTS...FFS!!!

But no Government will admit it openly because it is a dishonest tax. They will blame speculators or the weather or seasonal conditions, but they will never, ever, ever admit that inflation is a tax. Are you really as dense as you make out?
Have you ever heard the term 'Stealth tax'?




Correct, that is a free market. When you make a contract under a gold standard, you know that you will be paid an amount that will not change through Government interference. Imagine agreeing to sell something for 1 ounce of gold and then the government changes the number of grams in a troy ounce!

Think of it this way: If you lend a friend a DVD for 5 years with no interest you would expect to get the DVD back, right? Not half a DVD or less. You will get a FULL DVD.

But, if you lent him the equivalent of a DVD in £, interest free, in 5 years time when he pays you back, the money might be able to buy a DVD or it might not. Maybe it will buy more than one DVD or maybe less.

Do you see the difference? With the first contract you are 100% certain you will get a FULL DVD in 5 years time. With the second contract you are UNCERTAIN.

Yes but you still can't be certain that the DVD will be worth anything ......the same as fiat .

 

[new_trader]

Yes that would be ok but what about the tax system ? If you agree there should be tax ? that means energy wasted on accountants tax men etc.So why not inflate the currency buy 1-2% per year and use it for public services cutting out accountants and inefficiency and creating a stable currency? (no inflation or deflation)

I am going to say this one last time:

THE GOVERMENT IS ALREADY DOING THAT WHICH IS WHY FIAT MONEY IS BAD.

Politicians cannot control themselves and cannot be trusted. If they only wanted to inflate by 1-2% then they would have never dismantled the gold standard...

You haven't read or understood anything have you?

So, in the immortal words of HAL 9000

This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. - YouTube


UNSUBSCRIBED!

 

[price777999]

B.S!

You said:



You presented a hypothetical as if it would make things more efficient. Only now you are changing your argument to one where new money is being abused by private banks

Why do you think so many people want a gold standard? It is precisely to prevent the very abuses going on right now, already, via inflation. Private banks, special interest groups, Governments buying votes by promising more than can be afforded by tax revenues...

C'mon price777999, stop bullsh!tting me with your constant "I don't understand what you meant" and now changing the argument altogether...

YOU don't understand what you are talking about and what makes matters worse is that you do not understand that you do not understand!

You're not reading my posts and now you are being a prick so im leaving the thread .

 

[price777999]

Fuc"k it , if p3nis breath has unsubscribed I will start again .
Notice he did not answer these questions :
Why is gold a good currency ?

Is it because there is a steady flow of new currency through mining or because its useful in electronics and jewelry ?

When new gold is mined, is gold inflated ?

 

[new_trader]

Fuc"k it , if p3nis breath has unsubscribed I will start again .
Notice he did not answer these questions :

I don't know why 'he' didn't answer your questions, but I will.

Why is gold a good currency ?

1) It is durable
2) It is scarce
3) It is homogenous (every piece of gold is the same as every other piece)
4) It is easily divisible
5) It has over 5000 years of history as money in many difference civilizations around the world
6) It was 'chosen' to be money by the free-market ie/ Individuals in the market place, it wasn't imposed on people by the Government via legal tender laws.
7) It is desirable
8) It is portable (high value to weight ratio)
9) It is recyclable
10) It is easily and cheaply identifiable
11) It is instantly recognized

Is it because there is a steady flow of new currency through mining or because its useful in electronics and jewelry ?

Neither, it started out just like any other commodity 1000's of years ago and then outcompeted all other forms of money, like tobacco and salt, to become THE worlds money for the reasons mentioned above.

When new gold is mined, is gold inflated ?

The money supply is increased at a gentle rate, yes, This is around a steady 2-3%/year. However, as I have explained, it requires LAND, LABOUR AND CAPITAL to mine new gold. This is productivity. Just like ALL OTHER GOODS AND SERVICES.

Fiat money doesn't require anywhere near as much LAND,LABOUR or CAPITAL, it requires HONEST politicians to prevent them succumbing to the temptation of printing money in order to cover budget deficits. How many politicians do you know that are honest?

You simply have not done what I asked and read 1 single History book have you?

 

[Purple Brain]

I'm enjoying this discourse and the education it provides. new_trader has an edge to his delivery which rather enhances that which is delivered. A born educator. Great stuff.

Avoiding the pitfall of attempting to cast the two protagonists of this thread I'm going to take the liberty of transposing one of Plato's dialogues which feels totally appropriate to the current time and place and subject. It is where Socrates asks Euthyphro, "Is the Gold loved by the gods because it is Gold, or is it Gold because it is loved by the gods?".

It adds nothing useful to the thread, but serves as a token of my appreciation to the gallant gents in providing an interesting read for us all.

 

[price777999]

Quote:
Originally Posted by price777999
When new gold is mined, is gold inflated ?

The money supply is increased at a gentle rate, yes, This is around a steady 2-3%/year.

So you agree 2-3% inflation per year is ok now ?

However, as I have explained, it requires LAND, LABOUR AND CAPITAL to mine new gold. This is productivity. Just like ALL OTHER GOODS AND SERVICES.

Productivity is only good if you are producing something useful ? ...gold maybe useful for jewelry and electronics now but what about the future ? its use could just as easily become obsolete as technology evolves ?
Then you are left with an inefficient system mining gold just to keep the currency inflated buy 2-3% per year ?

That is why I think a currency like Bitcoin could be the way forward ?

What are your views on Bitcoin ?

You simply have not done what I asked and read 1 single History book have you?

No but I have skimmed through the ebook you posted and the quote at the end “All those who wish to stop the drift toward
increasing government control should
concentrate their efforts on monetary policy.” Was exactly the reason I opened the thread .At no point did I make out to be an economic expert.

 

[new_trader]

So you agree 2-3% inflation per year is ok now ?

No, I am not picking ANY number, I simply stated a fact. If the money supply grows naturally, as a result of productivity like gold mining, then whatever the rate is better than a completely arbitrary money supply growth rate picked by Cental Planners or Government. Do you understand?

An analogy: What is better, letting the market determine the number of smartphones that should be built through the process of supply and demand, or should Government Central Planners decide what the smartphone supply should be?

Productivity is only good if you are producing something useful ? ...gold maybe useful for jewelry and electronics now but what about the future ? its use could just as easily become obsolete as technology evolves ?
Then you are left with an inefficient system mining gold just to keep the currency inflated buy 2-3% per year ?

Yes, and THE MARKET will tell people if they are producing something useful via the price mechanism and profit. Like I said, there is 5000 years of History backing gold, I think the current paper fiat money will be obselete before gold.

People are mining gold because there is demand for gold, they aren't doing it to 'keep' the money supply growing. Once there is no profit in mining gold, it will stop. Why try and pre-empt this with unrealistic guesses about what might happen in the future?

That is why I think a currency like Bitcoin could be the way forward ?

What are your views on Bitcoin ?

Bitcoin is an extremely good example of free-market money. As you may or may not know, the number of bitcoins is limited to 21 million, but each bitcoin can be divided 100 million times. Strange how you like a fixed virtual currency but not a fixed tangible currency.

No but I have skimmed through the ebook you posted and the quote at the end “All those who wish to stop the drift toward
increasing government control should
concentrate their efforts on monetary policy.” Was exactly the reason I opened the thread .At no point did I make out to be an economic expert.

I'm sure I posted the e-book AFTER you opened the thread. You started out thinking inflation was the best and most efficient way of taxation...now you like bitcoins...go figure!

 

[price777999]

No, I am not picking ANY number, I simply stated a fact. If the money supply grows naturally, as a result of productivity like gold mining, then whatever the rate is better than a completely arbitrary money supply growth rate picked by Cental Planners or Government. Do you understand?

Yes i agree.But lets just say all the gold has been mined and we start going into hyper deflation ...what then ? ..will it still be an effective currency ?


[/QUOTE]Bitcoin is an extremely good example of free-market money. As you may or may not know, the number of bitcoins is limited to 21 million, but each bitcoin can be divided 100 million times. Strange how you like a fixed virtual currency but not a fixed tangible currency.[/QUOTE]

Gold is not fixed yet like Bitcoin, it is still being mined .(Bitcoin mining may still be ongoing? but we know its limit will be 21 million) Like i said before I don't think a finite currency has ever been used?
Im not against gold ..i just think a currency like Bitcoin could also be just as effective or better.And combined with a more efficient tax system you would have the ultimate economy ?

 

[price777999]

Why try and pre-empt this with unrealistic guesses about what might happen in the future?

Because good economy's should also continue to be effective in the future .

Why was the gold standard written into the US constitution ?

 

[counter_violent]

Bitcoin is just an elaborate pyramid selling ponzy scheme.

It might work for those already holding from the start, but the savvy will be offloading to the greater fool on the way up, for something more tangible.

 

[Purple Brain]

From Constitutional to Fiat Money - Timberlake

 

[new_trader]

Gold is not fixed yet like Bitcoin, it is still being mined .(Bitcoin mining may still be ongoing? but we know its limit will be 21 million) Like i said before I don't think a finite currency has ever been used?
Im not against gold ..i just think a currency like Bitcoin could also be just as effective or better.And combined with a more efficient tax system you would have the ultimate economy ?

You are now baffling me, no disrespect to you, maybe it's the language barrier, you are from Norway, right?

Before we can go any further with this discussion, we have to agree about what 'fixed' means.

1) Fixed means limited supply right? So, unless a huge gold filled asteroid lands (gently) on earth, or we develop the technology to mine near earth asteroids, the amount of gold is fixed. Right? So, gold is fixed and Bitcoins are fixed. They are EXACTLY the same in that respect. Right?

2) Bitcoins are only a currency and nothing else. They are nothing more than entries in an electronic ledger. They have absolutely no other purpose other than exchange. Unlike gold, you can't wear bitcoins, you can't use them in catalytic converters, you can't use them in electronics and they have very little history. Yet, you think that gold may in future become so obsolete that it wont even regress to being what bitcoins are right now, it will actually become completely worthless like dirt. People will just throw their gold in the bin and use bitcoins instead...you really believe that?

3) Would you feel safe having ALL your money in bitcoins? Knowing that there might be supercomputers 'mining' new bitcoins as you sleep? You'd feel safer than having your money in gold, locked in a safe, hidden where nobody can find it?

4) Why do you keep going on about an efficient tax system? Tax has ZERO to do with the monetary system. Do you understand that? Money facilitates the exchange of productivity. Tax is what Governments take from citizens to fund 'the state'. I'd rather have NO INCOME tax, whether we use salt, tobacco,bitcoins, gold or cigarrettes as money. I just accept that the Government needs to take some money from me for what it provides. How it does this is a different discussion unless you want to accept that INFLATION is good. Then we are back to square one again...I feel like I'm going in freaking circles!

 

[new_trader]

Why was the gold standard written into the US constitution ?

BECAUSE OF THEIR DISASTEROUS EXPERIENCE WITH FIAT PAPER MONEY AND INFLATION!!!!!

Ever heard the expression "Not worth a Continental"?