I'm a masochist & it's hurting my trading :(

[Masquerade]

I'm quite introspective myself (probably to the extent where it's too introspective.) I've really been struggling to read books, my time just disappears somewhere and i've lost the attention to focus for long periods of time unless i'm reading something i'm motivated to read. Thanks for the recommendations and if I were to pick between the 2 books you suggested, which one should I go for? I'm liking the look of the archery one, is that a good place to start?

 

[DashRiprock]

well good news is you can pick up both books for under a tenner i rekon, so go for both 🙂
more good news is that "zen in the art of archery" is a whole 107 pages long in quite big letters. and the golf one, its 224 pages but broken up into chapters of 5 - 6 pages each, and they are sort of "stand alone". I mean its the kind of book you take with you when ur having a sh!t.

which one is best? well they are both diffrent. the "zen" one leaves you with dots to join, and you will read it more than once. as well I shud say I am a bit of a zen fanboy so a bit biased.

the golf one has chapters like "train it, trust it", whis is like; "when you are having a bad time, most amateurs think the problem is in their swing and try to change it. the problem isnt in the swing, and f*cking with the swing will only make it worse". so its a bit more practical, but also more towards the "quick fix" end of the scale than the zen stuff.

you said about that "f*ck it" book so i rekon the zen one will not be totally lost on you. the golf one has obvious connections with practical trading.... so get both. like I read the whole "train it trust it" chapter in the middle of this post.

 

[DionysusToast]

mas

Open a "play" account and give vent to your boredom/frustration/impulses in that. Won't matter much if you blow it apart now and then. Keep your main account reserved for the real deal stuff.

jon

This is what I was going to say. Just don't call it a play account.

From now on - embark on 2 endeavors.

1 - Your regular trading
2 - Your new super scalping method that will make you a gazillionaire in 30 days

For number 2 use an Oanda account and trade $1 (not $ per tick, I mean $1 total).

Whilst your number 2 endeavor may fail, it seems you have an urge to branch off into some other mode of trading. This may actually end up being successful or it may just be boredom.

Still - you can't discount the possibility that all this time watching the markets has given you some abilities you need to refine that would enable you to branch out.

 

[shadowninja]

Masq, the book thread made me think... visualisation. Have you tried regularly visualising being in a good trade and imagining taking profits, then also visualising being in a bad trade and imagining it slowly increasing... -10, -12, -15, -20 (pips or money), then you close the trade (or if you prefer, you see it approaching a support level, breaching it and you close). Visualise closing for a loss many times and you will train yourself to close and be comfortable closing for a small loss. That's something you can do when there's no trade.

In rock climbing, there are two things climbers can train for:
1) going for a hold, missing it and having to do it again - this can be done by going for a hold, touching it, then coming back; repeat several times and it builds the muscles necessary to mean you have the endurance to try again.
2) falling - falling is like taking a loss; purposely letting go and falling gets you used to the feeling so you're not scared of it plus know what to expect in terms of where the body swings. While you don't want to purposely take a loss, you can visualise it so you get the same mental stimulation (if you don't then you're not visualising hard enough).

 

[Masquerade]

well good news is you can pick up both books for under a tenner i rekon, so go for both 🙂
more good news is that "zen in the art of archery" is a whole 107 pages long in quite big letters. and the golf one, its 224 pages but broken up into chapters of 5 - 6 pages each, and they are sort of "stand alone". I mean its the kind of book you take with you when ur having a sh!t.

I think i'll start with the zen book and see how I go with it. I'm pretty bad with reading books and struggle to read 10 pages at a time these days so best to not have what turns out to be another paper-weight sitting around. I'm not really one to spend any more time than necessary when going to the toilet but i'm sure i'll make some time in the quieter market hours. It's quite scary how unproductive i've become.

This is what I was going to say. Just don't call it a play account.

From now on - embark on 2 endeavors.

1 - Your regular trading
2 - Your new super scalping method that will make you a gazillionaire in 30 days

For number 2 use an Oanda account and trade $1 (not $ per tick, I mean $1 total).

I have used a secondary account before. I'm kind of tempted to just chuck a few £ in and trade something and see what I can do with it. Only thing is I don't really want to encourage gambling behaviour on a secondary account as it may transfer into my proper trading. I might just be better off finding something to occupy my time with at the times when there's nothing to do rather than punt around for a few £ on my other account.

 

[BeginnerJoe]

If books can teach you how to make easy money, everyone would be doing it.

As you know where you went wrong, how about face your enemy square on ? The struggle is yourself against yourself. No one, or no thing can really help you. If you are swayed by people this way or that, whatever that gave you the initial success could well disappear. Grab a hold of yourself, man ! Decide which mistake. within your control. you don't want to repeat, and don't repeat it. Slap yourself next time you come close to the situation where the mistake could be repeated to wake yourself from the danger, and to show yourself you have the situation under control because you are already aware of the danger.

 

[brettus]

I think i'll start with the zen book and see how I go with it. I'm pretty bad with reading books and struggle to read 10 pages at a time these days so best to not have what turns out to be another paper-weight sitting around. I'm not really one to spend any more time than necessary when going to the toilet but i'm sure i'll make some time in the quieter market hours. It's quite scary how unproductive i've become.



I have used a secondary account before. I'm kind of tempted to just chuck a few £ in and trade something and see what I can do with it. Only thing is I don't really want to encourage gambling behaviour on a secondary account as it may transfer into my proper trading. I might just be better off finding something to occupy my time with at the times when there's nothing to do rather than punt around for a few £ on my other account.

I think you're smacking your golf ball into the trees and trying to make par when you have too difficult a shot. Sometimes you have to play out sideways, and then play onto the green. This way you might make a bogey, but it will stop doubles and triples on your card. In essence i'm saying you lose 100 pounds hitting the ball into the trees, but you try and make it back by trying to make a 50 yards draw over water and 9 times out of 10, you'll end up in the water, playing your fourth from the drop zone. If you had just played out sideways. Your fourth shot would have been a putt on the green. Remember with golf like trading, you have to take each shot/trade at a time. You play the percentage shot/trade every time and you don't mull over the last shot/trade you made. You treat a putt for par as just as important a putt for birdie. Just because you've lost 100 gbp don't throw away another 100 gbp.

 

[Masquerade]

If books can teach you how to make easy money, everyone would be doing it.

As you know where you went wrong, how about face your enemy square on ? The struggle is yourself against yourself. No one, or no thing can really help you. If you are swayed by people this way or that, whatever that gave you the initial success could well disappear. Grab a hold of yourself, man ! Decide which mistake. within your control. you don't want to repeat, and don't repeat it. Slap yourself next time you come close to the situation where the mistake could be repeated to wake yourself from the danger, and to show yourself you have the situation under control because you are already aware of the danger.

I'm fully aware that a book won't be a magical fix, however i'm all for self-improvement and trying to consider different approaches to things so I don't see much harm in reading it. I have been made aware previously of my trading problems but have chosen to side-step them and keep going thinking that next time i'll close the loss before it becomes big/next time I won't start leveraging my account. Which did work until it didn't and some of the bad trades were taken out of boredom/frustration/impatience.

As outlined earlier, i've vowed to not average positions and have set an arbitrary stop just to prevent me getting into a big hole. The stop won't always be hit as i'll close a trade prior to the stop if I no longer think it's good, but I think the stop I have set should be enough for me to get into the market with a fairly decent level of accuracy without getting stopped out in good trades.

I think you're smacking your golf ball into the trees and trying to make par when you have too difficult a shot. Sometimes you have to play out sideways, and then play onto the green. This way you might make a bogey, but it will stop doubles and triples on your card. In essence i'm saying you lose 100 pounds hitting the ball into the trees, but you try and make it back by trying to make a 50 yards draw over water and 9 times out of 10, you'll end up in the water, playing your fourth from the drop zone. If you had just played out sideways. Your fourth shot would have been a putt on the green. Remember with golf like trading, you have to take each shot/trade at a time. You play the percentage shot/trade every time and you don't mull over the last shot/trade you made. You treat a putt for par as just as important a putt for birdie. Just because you've lost 100 gbp don't throw away another 100 gbp.

I think I followed the point among all the golf analogy 🙂 I'll be endeavouring to be more patient and just wait for the good trades to come rather than force the marginal trades with limited potential which i've taken due to boredom/general frustration. I just have to accept that some weeks I won't make x% ROI on my account and maybe even some days I won't trade/make money which could ultimately save me money by not trading those days.

 

[Black Swan]

Masq have you thought of 'going all Renko'? Saw shadow's mention of visualiastion and it got me thinking that despite the limitations (imho) the beautfiul simplicity and hpynotic zen like quality of Renko can offer up a trading calmness..just a thought..

 

[Masquerade]

I honestly have no idea what 'going all Renko' was until you just mentioned it. Are you talking about trading using Renko charts or is it something completely different? If it's the chart thing, how is it any different to just using different coloured candlesticks?

 

[Black Swan]

I honestly have no idea what 'going all Renko' was until you just mentioned it. Are you talking about trading using Renko charts or is it something completely different? If it's the chart thing, how is it any different to just using different coloured candlesticks?

Yep, trading using Renko charts only..How's it different? Well as with all opinions its a touch subjective but Renko came to mind given your current trading issues. Do a bit of Googling and dyor, iirc there was a few good articles/opinions on advn a couple of years back..

 

[Masquerade]

Ok thanks, i'll have a look into it just to see if there's anything useful. I might pull up a chart and watch it over the week to see if there's anything of much value. The trading problems don't come from an inability to read price but I guess it can't hurt to take a look as I may prefer it to my current charts.

 

[DashRiprock]

emergency! emergency! emergency!

Ignore Black Swans advice about changing what you do. Seriously, that is like f*cking with your swing like bob rotella says in "train it, trust it" chapter.

** your swing is not the problem **

look mate you ahve obviously found some method that works for you, you dont need to spill the beans it isnt importnat, but i think we are all assuming you have a genuinly profitable strategy, not like howard of anything.

if you have done it for months on end, you can do it for more months on end. what (I think at least) is losing you money is your impatience / boredom / frustration / whatever.

ALL of these things are proper traders hurdles and the answer to ALL of these things is in the mirror, not it changing your swing.

I think alot of people would improve their trading by millions if they were as honest with themselves and everyone else as you are being here. good on you pal.

 

[Masquerade]

😆 No need for the fisticuffs. You're right, I don't have an issue with reading price from a chart. It's the boredom/frustration and being unwilling to take losses and watch them turn into sizeable losses and going through those cycles once every month or so. Those being the fundamental issues I need to address and will work on.

 

[Black Swan]

Ok thanks, i'll have a look into it just to see if there's anything useful. I might pull up a chart and watch it over the week to see if there's anything of much value. The trading problems don't come from an inability to read price but I guess it can't hurt to take a look as I may prefer it to my current charts.

Nope 'tis not about an inability to read price, you have patience issues, I thought a different (calmer) method of displaying that price, that is less 'busy', may help but wtf..sort it yerself..

 

[Jason101]

I agree with BS, Renko can have a calming influence while trading, helping to dissipate the urges to trade. I quite like the idea of entering on candles and managing on Renko to stop me from fiddling with the open trade.

 

[DashRiprock]

lucozade you seem to have a pretty good handle on what the problem is.

ignore these jokers about changing your strategy (well jason101 i like u but your wrong here imo). changing your strategy is taking 2 steps backwards fro 1 step forward.

but i think u no this so good luck mate. i as well will recommend visualisation like shadow was saying about... ed sekota said that he always considered his "core equity" as what was not margined out for a trade... so before he put on a trade he would visualise losing all of the risk on the trade and, if he still felt it was worth it, "lost" the money by putting on the trade and then followed his rules on the money he had "lost".

and on a bt more funny note, I have seen 2 quite novel approaches for same kind of problems; one was buying like a couple of bags worth of "go" beans? (you know like the chinese game?). Anyway each bean was worth a certain %age of account, and the trader set himself a max (and funny, a min) per week of his account that he had to risk on a trade with? so from the basket of beans, he would work out what to risk on it from his weekly allowance and then pick the same number of beans from the basket, and then decide if the trade was worth the risk to his beans or not. LOL

Other one is having loads of baby wipes next to your desk, so like when you are done and dusted with a trade you sort of rub your face and hands with a baby wipe and "throw it away" i mean throw the babywipe away obviously but also throuw all emotions with that trade away as well, like cleans yourself and start from scratch withthe next one.

oh one more thing... like i dont know ur situation but do you trade from home? because a quite important thing is like to have a space (and computer hardware obv) dedicated only to trading only, because if like u are trading just from your laptop on the coffee table then "work" and "rest" boundaries all break down and its hard to like stick to the plan when holly willowbooby is on the telly.

rooting for you buddy 🙂

 

[Pat494]

MAKE A PLAN

and stick to it until it breaks

every masochist needs a sadist to inflict the pain when THE RULES are broken

Would you like me to invite Miss Whiplash round to dish IT out to you - you ninney !!

 

[Black Swan]

If you have Mind and Money Management issues and as a consequence your discipline is compromised, causing inconsistency, losses and drawdowns, then you have no "strategy" or edge...Your Method at such time is pointless and rendered irrelevant...

 

[DionysusToast]

MAKE A PLAN

and stick to it

every masochist needs a sadist to inflict the pain when THE RULES are broken

invite around Miss Whiplash to dish IT out you ninney !!

These are things that are easy to say but not to do.

I - do the off plan stuff but at a micro level. Go with the flow instead of trying to change. Satisfy your urge to hit a six without putting a lot of $$$ on the line.s

Masq is not the only one with issues like this. I'm unfortunately not one of those blessed individuals that can double my account every three days, it feels more like building a model of the Eiffel Tower out of matchsticks. Then every now and again, you decide to light a cigarette with one of the matches, thinking it will be an isolated flame...

I think you have a choice, try to stop imploding or do all your silly stuff on a low-risk account... easy enough if you trade forex.