I Stopped Using Stops

[tar]

:|

 

[tar]

 

[tar]

Previous screenshots are for real systems with real followers from collective2 , with the same concepts : no stops , averaging down ...

 

[darktone]

Who said i will be short in such sitution ? And what about the other tools that i may be using .

Goon then, long or short. If you got the time mind. You a busy boy :cheesy:

 

[darktone]

I don't trade using charts, I am a tape reader, an absolute purist. So now what? Do you have any convenient hypotheticals to cope with that methodology?

I dont know. Give us an example of your play and ill see what I can do.

 

[darktone]

Darktone

Can you tell me what brings your "campaigns" to a conclusion, please. Thx.

When my limits get filled and im flat again, at profit or otherwise.

 

[new_trader]

I dont know. Give us an example of your play and ill see what I can do.

Actually, my question was almost rhetorical because I knew you couldn't have an answer and would require me to give an example of ‘my play’. This is tantamount to giving away my methodology and my edge and there is no way I will do that, sorry.

 

[Wolfgang27]

Why would one stop using stops? It's like making sure that one will never succeed trading. :|

 

[barjon]

When my limits get filled and im flat again, at profit or otherwise.

ok, how do your limits get set then? What I'm getting at is that if you have a mechanism for closing off before you go into profit then you are operating a sort of stoploss, albeit a sort of managed one covering the whole campaign rather than for each individual trade.

If, however, you are managing the thing until you go into some sort of profit then that's a completely different story and tests the risk of ruin to its extreme. And you have to carry an unknown risk, albeit that you can tinker with position size to keep it containable (hopefully).

My main objection is not risk of ruin though. This http://www.trade2win.com/articles/2006-trading-business sums up my approach and the importance (in my view) of knowing and controlling my risk.

 

[darktone]

Actually, my question was almost rhetorical because I knew you couldn't have an answer and would require me to give an example of ‘my play’. This is tantamount to giving away my methodology and my edge and there is no way I will do that, sorry.

I kinda guessed that mate.
Well how about you just give us some executed trades examples of stop placement, winners / losers dont matter. At least then we can see where you executed if not why you executed.
Youd keep your edge safe then.

 

[darktone]

Why would one stop using stops? It's like making sure that one will never succeed trading. :|

I think, 'not using stops gives you the chance to thrive rather than just survive' might be a little nearer the truth.

 

[darktone]

Apparently mr Darktone uses limit orders to close his losses , what a waste of time , i use market orders or stop orders , this is not the main concern for this thread , this isn't the issue here : what type of order do you use to exit your losses ?! :whistling

I sure do man, I dont think its a waste of time either. A limit order seeks value, a stop order does the opposite.

You didnt gives us an example of a soft / mental stop. I had a quick go but its been a while, any where close?

You gona have a go at those other charts I posted? F did, did alright n all.

 

[tar]

Ego

Do you know who really has ego problems ? Its the trader who trades without any type of stop loss . No one here will teach you , you know who will ? Mr. Market will and its just matter of time .

 

[darktone]

ok, how do your limits get set then? What I'm getting at is that if you have a mechanism for closing off before you go into profit then you are operating a sort of stoploss, albeit a sort of managed one covering the whole campaign rather than for each individual trade.

If, however, you are managing the thing until you go into some sort of profit then that's a completely different story and tests the risk of ruin to its extreme. And you have to carry an unknown risk, albeit that you can tinker with position size to keep it containable (hopefully).

My main objection is not risk of ruin though. This http://www.trade2win.com/articles/2006-trading-business sums up my approach and the importance (in my view) of knowing and controlling my risk.

You got to remember that this is the testing account, anything goes. I can do anything I wish, with size, trade ideas, regardless of how nuts it seems, at any time. I want to put myself Into that uncomfortable place, to test methods for sure, but far more importantly, to test psych.
Profitability isnt a consideration, but ive been profitable. The truth is the profits from this trip have all come from tiny sized trades. When ive swung some size its only cost me, if id have stayed tiny id have booked more profit. How so? Well, imo, obviously the final entry aves are great, but the main thing is is that your not taking unfavorable losses with a stop order.
As I see it, it really is as this guy says. "Its not what you make its what you dont lose"
https://youtu.be/--H8SY334Zw?t=16m22s
Trading full live theres no messing. Keep it tight n keep it tiny.

Re: how do your limits get set then?:-
In this round of testing ive been using 2sma's on a 1min chart, they look like this.

On left side of the line im entering and managing, on the right side of the line (after the ma cross) im taking a profit, always, on what I have left, ie my final averaged position.
Whether or not the campaign is profitable rests on the total result of the scratched trades being less than the profits from the final position.
Edit:- To clarify ^^. The result of the scratches (profit or loss) + profit from final aved position = campaign result.
Im a trend follower as I think you. Ive been following (99% of the time) 4hr dax, simple close above or below a single sma is the direction. If the 4hr changes direction when mid campaign then I close them up as per normal, when the market gives me the opportunity. I then look to bat inline with the new 4hr trend.

Re: until you go into some sort of profit:-
Nah. Ill leave that kinda thing for them boys on zulu. It makes no sense to me.
Re risk. Ive said many times before. I see my risk as my size x anything can happen. Im always conscious of how the market can hurt me in a BIG ONE.
I know thats not everyones cup of tea, well pretty much no ones cuppa tea but im comfortable with it, which is all that matters to me.
I see stops as risky for that reason. A stop user, particularly one that sizes thier trade from entry to stop, someone who see their $ risk as this amount, has to believe that gaps and fast thin markets dont pose a significant risk. That imo is just not true. That + normal slippage just adds to bleed, Imo.

Re: My main objection is not risk of ruin though:-
Thanks for the link. We can agree on 'treating trading as a business' eh.

Cheers
D

 

[darktone]

Do you know who really has ego problems ?

I can only say that Im aware of my ego. I understand that I am separate from my ego as I understand I am master of it... Most of the time

Its the trader who trades without any type of stop loss . No one here will teach you , you know who will ? Mr. Market will and its just matter of time .

Not sure anyone here can teach me more about me than I can.
I always used to think Mr Market was teaching me a lesson. As I become more aware of my self, I see thats not true. The market isnt something to be feared, its just there, providing opportunity.
Ive seen the enemy. It is my false self. The false self created by my mind. It is my ego.

 

[Fugazsy]

I can only say that Im aware of my ego. I understand that I am separate from my ego as I understand I am master of it... Most of the time


Not sure anyone here can teach me more about me than I can.
I always used to think Mr Market was teaching me a lesson. As I become more aware of my self, I see thats not true. The market isnt something to be feared, its just there, providing opportunity.
Ive seen the enemy. It is my false self. The false self created by my mind. It is my ego.

Good post, yes the ego......always playing hide and seek....

 

[darktone]

Well said but has nothing to do with not using SL's. Personally I feel your ego is protecting the idea that not using SL's is the best solution, are you aware of that?

Thanks Fug and fair dos.
I dont know how many years you have in mate, but the vast majority Ive had have been as a stop user. Means nothing more than ive had quite a bit of experience in seeing how and where stop orders can cost the user.
As far as im aware, Ive never said that no stops 'is the best solution', (thats your label). Just that a stop order always seek loss at a price that is less favourable than the current price. With that in mind, id rather try a different path.

Re ego is protecting the idea:-
All is possible mate, time will tell.

 

[darktone]

Good post, yes the ego......always playing hide and seek....

For sure man. I agree.

 

[barjon]

"..."..............Re: how do your limits get set then?:-
In this round of testing ive been using 2sma's on a 1min chart, they look like this.

On left side of the line im entering and managing, on the right side of the line (after the ma cross) im taking a profit, always, on what I have left, ie my final averaged position.
Whether or not the campaign is profitable rests on the total result of the scratched trades being less than the profits from the final position.
Im a trend follower as I think you. Ive been following (99% of the time) 4hr dax, simple close above or below a single sma is the direction. If the 4hr changes direction when mid campaign then I close them up as per normal, when the market gives me the opportunity. I then look to bat inline with the new 4hr ................D

Ah, methinks you've been pulling our tails a touch . You are using a stop loss which is signalled by the price action as depicted by the ma cross. Although that doesn't automatically trigger and you "manage" your way out after the cross it's little different from those who have a stop level and then "manage" their way out when it's reached. The main difference is that they know the sort of loss they might suffer when they start, but you don't.

 

[darktone]

Ah, methinks you've been pulling our tails a touch . You are using a stop loss which is signalled by the price action as depicted by the ma cross. Although that doesn't automatically trigger and you "manage" your way out after the cross it's little different from those who have a stop level and then "manage" their way out when it's reached. The main difference is that they know the sort of loss they might suffer when they start, but you don't.

I think most o yawl been pulling your own tales might be nearer the truth
If you read what I said again, youl find that I book my scratches (at loss or profit) before the ma cross.

Re: its little different from those who have a stop level:-
I disagree, let me explain why.

If we take a look at the first chart in your article and focus on the bit in the yellow circle.

When the market was making new lows, thats where I am buying.
The trader is waiting for the entry youve shown, which is above the lowest red candle.
If the market goes there and I havent already scratched, I can help the trader, by filling their order with what I no longer want.

Now we are both long, them up here, me down there. We are both set to benefit from a favourable move.

If that doesnt happen and the market turns and heads south, breaking the low and hitting the stop level youve shown then...
A hard stop: Is executed right there (Ill help with that by filling that stop, because thats where I am buying)
A soft stop: Isnt executed straight away, leaving the trader with a decision to make. Like me he doesn't know whats gona happen next. If he a market order when price makes new lows, I can help him liquidate by filling his order ,giving him a way out of his position. If he chooses to stick it out then he can liquidate alongside me when I scratch. Or maybe he can wait for a better price. Or hold on for a profit. Or hold on and em at the next LL. Or. Or. Or.or...
In any event, if I can help this trader. I will.
Repeat repeat repeat.

In short. Where they be buying I be selling. Where they be selling I be buying.

Re:The main difference is that they know the sort of loss they might suffer when they start:-
They might like to think they know. Id disagree.
They can be slipped, sometimes horribly. They can be chasing a fast market, after their mental stop has been triggered.
I think its fairer to say that all they know, is the level of loss that they would want to take.

Re: but you don't.:-
Exactly. I know I dont know. Which is why I start from the worst case scenario, and respect it with tiny size.