How To Think Correctly

[bizmanny]

Socrates had been adamant all his life that people should be brought to logically deduce and reason for themselves and to act in accordance with that logical deduction and reasoning within a framework of morality.

But Plato his successor now picked up the opposite banner.

He argued that it did not matter if people could not be brought to logically deduce and reason and act in accordance with that logical deduction and reasoning and within a framework of morality....he argued it was perfectly alright for people to do exactly as they pleased provided they enjoyed it.

In consequence of this a new age of t;ugidity arrived, whose descendant is with us to this day and haunts all deep thinkers.

For this reason, I adopted Socrates's name in his honour as a nick for this website, but I assure all of you I will not repeat his folly, as I have used his model to learn how it is best to try but not to try all the way as it only leads to self detriment.

The argument is that people should be given what they need and not necessariy what they want.:cheesy:

This particularly applies to the newbies, the vulnerable, the gullible, the inexperienced, the disadvantaged, the ignorant, the foolish, the reckless, and ultimately the stubborn.

But as what people invariably need is strong medicine they are either unwilling or unable to take, one must learn from the lessons of the past and allow everyone to have what they want ultimately as it is their own choice.....and so be it.

Well Socrates you are very articulate. But why not try always to honour Socrates name by sticking to his principles. It seems to me you have adopted Plato banner for most part anyway according your explanation. The vulnerable, the gullible, the inexperienced, the disadvantaged, the ignorant, the foolish, the reckless, and ultimately the stubborn. These are people who can do with your knowledge all of the them expect the last one your mention (the ultimately stubborn). After all most people who come here are looking to learn. Come on Socrates be brave adopt your nick stance.

 

[Legion]

Great post socrates, cheers.

"But Plato his successor now picked up the opposite banner.

He argued that it did not matter if people could not be brought to logically deduce and reason and act in accordance with that logical deduction and reasoning and within a framework of morality....he argued it was perfectly alright for people to do exactly as they pleased provided they enjoyed it."

Now I agree to this in the sense that it is my understanding that god,(higher being, force,energy or god tag) has given man free will, for each and every individual man to do as they see fit for themselves, even beyond todays theorectical laws written by man if they feel that that is what they must do for themselves and act out their true ambitions for themselves living to their own moral framework and passing on their own values to fulfill their role .

I see the sense in that if we have been given free will and in that there can be absolutely no conditions of expectations of us to follow ,for it is god given, a gift with our life ( except those of our own choosing) because how would our will that is given be truly free otherwise? It wouldnt be would it if there were demands,conditions or expectations attached to our free will? , but our will is free to do as we please, because it is through us that the God figure ,experiences life on earth through our experience and in that sense all experience is good? I mean we are Conductors of the experience for the lord to feel.

Plato has a point in recognising this? so why didnt socrates? why did socrates want to project his own ideolgy and beliefs of how the masses should logically think , deduce and reason according his own views ,onto others? Maybe his will of how others should be but, whats it got to do with him?

LOL or was he just a teacher trying to teach? hmm assisting with expansion of others awareness for their own sake or his? I mean were and are the people today happy living ignorance is bliss ?

Appologies I'm ignorant with socrates works and i seem to link to god (figure,superior force) often when thinking of our purpose.


Surely it matters only to each individual as to how they themselves think, or may not think or remain ignorant to thinking, which some say is a state of bliss? I can see why as with awareness comes a cost? The extra exposure to others suffering, a small price ? hmm dunno you feel it at times constantly aware of it, it belongs to others ,those feelings their experience but....

 

[Atilla]

Great post socrates, cheers.

"But Plato his successor now picked up the opposite banner.

He argued that it did not matter if people could not be brought to logically deduce and reason and act in accordance with that logical deduction and reasoning and within a framework of morality....he argued it was perfectly alright for people to do exactly as they pleased provided they enjoyed it."

Now I agree to this in the sense that it is my understanding that god,(higher being, force,energy or god tag) has given man free will, for each and every individual man to do as they see fit for themselves, even beyond todays theorectical laws written by man if they feel that that is what they must do for themselves and act out their true ambitions for themselves living to their own moral framework and passing on their own values to fulfill their role .

Excellent read, so very interesting. I'm not too clued up on philosophy but reading about it has led me to think about the following.

With my management cap on, there must be some way of measuring or quantifying the objectives. Basically, like measuring efficiency or productivity.

Like cause -> effect -> outcome? desired or not desired etc etc.

For example

1. I think...
2. I think I understand
3. I trade
4. I'm right I make a profit :cheesy:
5. I'm wrong I make a loss

Without the profit or loss there is no conclusion but only Socrates thoughts perhaps as in knowing that I still don't know nothing.

What was the objective and how can it be quantified or measured :?:

Wouldn't such quantifiable results give us answers to our thoughts :?: and perhaps more meaningful conclusions?

 

[SOCRATES]

Well Socrates you are very articulate. But why not try always to honour Socrates name by sticking to his principles. It seems to me you have adopted Plato banner for most part anyway according your explanation. The vulnerable, the gullible, the inexperienced, the disadvantaged, the ignorant, the foolish, the reckless, and ultimately the stubborn. These are people who can do with your knowledge all of the them expect the last one your mention (the ultimately stubborn). After all most people who come here are looking to learn. Come on Socrates be brave adopt your nick stance.

Thank you bizmanny for your comments.

You say I am articulate. At least you are polite. But there are members who accuse me of being a wordsmith. This implies that al they can percieve is they are confronted with a cascade of words, and, in being confronted with a cascade, find themselves overwhelmed. Then they seek (or rather their egos seek) some sort of comfort and the initial knee jerk reaction is to retort.

But the onus is on them to understand and not for me to understand for them, as I know, and there is also a handful of readers of what I write (because I really write for them) exactly who clearly understand without question what is meant by my posts.

Here is a qucik guide for the perplexed.....miss the meaning of one single word in a paragraph and everything that follows is a jumble. Go back and identify, properly identify, the word that has given you bother, consult a dictionary if necessary, clear it and then all will fall into place.

This is because, in harmony with Socratic dialogue everything I post is the result of logical deduction and reasoning and the conclusions derived therefrom.

I have not adopted the Plato banner. That is exactly the problem.

It would be easier if I did adopt it. Then my posts would not attract any controversy, none whatsoever. Everybody would be very happy to have yet another poster currying favour by conforming to mainstream and acting harmoniously with collectively held beliefs and agreeing.

But you see as I have explained many times before and from many different angles, none of this is about sharing, it is about competing.

But in order to compete, and to compete effectively, you have to shed beliefs, and replace them with realities.

This excercise of shedding and totally disposing of beliefs and replacing them with realities, many of which are uncomfortable, cruel, impersonal and unfafmiliar are a complete anathema to people who are accustomed to sharing, on the basis they "mistakenly believe...or ...assume" that sharing is the answer to self development as a trader. Wrong !

Therefore there is a limit to which water can be pushed uphill according to the perceptions, the incorrect perceptions of those who cling to beliefs and refuse to embrace realities.

It is as if a glass wall, an invisible and impenetrable glass wall exists for many people who cannot seem to be able to cross it or even want to try as they see the excercisse as not necessary and therefore persist in clinging to their beliefs as an anchor of comfort.

But trading is about facing realities and dealling with them and not about taking comfort.

Therefore I have not changed my stance but recognise how difficult if not impossible it is for many to overcome their beliefs which they closely guard and protect, and ultimately to overcome themselves as just one part of the obstacles they have to face if they are to attain total proficiency in the gladiatorial arena which is tthe brutal reality of trading.

 

[SOCRATES]

Great post socrates, cheers.

"But Plato his successor now picked up the opposite banner.

He argued that it did not matter if people could not be brought to logically deduce and reason and act in accordance with that logical deduction and reasoning and within a framework of morality....he argued it was perfectly alright for people to do exactly as they pleased provided they enjoyed it."

Now I agree to this in the sense that it is my understanding that god,(higher being, force,energy or god tag) has given man free will, for each and every individual man to do as they see fit for themselves, even beyond todays theorectical laws written by man if they feel that that is what they must do for themselves and act out their true ambitions for themselves living to their own moral framework and passing on their own values to fulfill their role .

I see the sense in that if we have been given free will and in that there can be absolutely no conditions of expectations of us to follow ,for it is god given, a gift with our life ( except those of our own choosing) because how would our will that is given be truly free otherwise? It wouldnt be would it if there were demands,conditions or expectations attached to our free will? , but our will is free to do as we please, because it is through us that the God figure ,experiences life on earth through our experience and in that sense all experience is good? I mean we are Conductors of the experience for the lord to feel.

Plato has a point in recognising this? so why didnt socrates? why did socrates want to project his own ideolgy and beliefs of how the masses should logically think , deduce and reason according his own views ,onto others? Maybe his will of how others should be but, whats it got to do with him?

LOL or was he just a teacher trying to teach? hmm assisting with expansion of others awareness for their own sake or his? I mean were and are the people today happy living ignorance is bliss ?

Appologies I'm ignorant with socrates works and i seem to link to god (figure,superior force) often when thinking of our purpose.


Surely it matters only to each individual as to how they themselves think, or may not think or remain ignorant to thinking, which some say is a state of bliss? I can see why as with awareness comes a cost? The extra exposure to others suffering, a small price ? hmm dunno you feel it at times constantly aware of it, it belongs to others ,those feelings their experience but....

I am being called to lunch and will reply to you later.

 

[SOCRATES]

Excellent read, so very interesting. I'm not too clued up on philosophy but reading about it has led me to think about the following.

With my management cap on, there must be some way of measuring or quantifying the objectives. Basically, like measuring efficiency or productivity.

Like cause -> effect -> outcome? desired or not desired etc etc.

For example

1. I think...
2. I think I understand
3. I trade
4. I'm right I make a profit :cheesy:
5. I'm wrong I make a loss

Without the profit or loss there is no conclusion but only Socrates thoughts perhaps as in knowing that I still don't know nothing.

What was the objective and how can it be quantified or measured :?:

Wouldn't such quantifiable results give us answers to our thoughts :?: and perhaps more meaningful conclusions?

...I will reply later.

 

[Adamned]

This is really a great thread, a nice exchange of thoughts. Its only my opinion that the correct way to think about the markets is much easier than most think. It begins with what you think the market really is. Many think the market is special and can be mastered by careful study and complex proprietary tools. They will repeat their system and win and win and win.I don't believe in this. They force their plan on the current conditions of the market rather than making a plan based on conditions exactly at the moment. Think of trading as it really is, its not investing its gambling. Once you accept this you are on your way to actually making money. I think the path to victory in trading is best summed up by a Bill O'neil of IBD quote. "The best loser is the greatest winner" For me nothing is more right on. You will lose at trades all the time but your winners should always out weigh your losses. Instead of calling yourself a trader call your self a risk manager. Put on trades at opportune locations with very little risk. In others words you know you are wrong very very quickly and have the discipline to exit right when you think you "may" be wrong. If you are proven right add on to your position. If you repeat this several times on a daily basis at the end of the day should have positive cash flow. For me its really that simple and most importantly don't over-complicate things just put wagers on at strategic locations and exit as fast as you can if your wrong.

 

[SOCRATES]

Great post socrates, cheers.

"But Plato his successor now picked up the opposite banner.

He argued that it did not matter if people could not be brought to logically deduce and reason and act in accordance with that logical deduction and reasoning and within a framework of morality....he argued it was perfectly alright for people to do exactly as they pleased provided they enjoyed it."

Now I agree to this in the sense that it is my understanding that god,(higher being, force,energy or god tag) has given man free will, for each and every individual man to do as they see fit for themselves, even beyond todays theorectical laws written by man if they feel that that is what they must do for themselves and act out their true ambitions for themselves living to their own moral framework and passing on their own values to fulfill their role .

I see the sense in that if we have been given free will and in that there can be absolutely no conditions of expectations of us to follow ,for it is god given, a gift with our life ( except those of our own choosing) because how would our will that is given be truly free otherwise? It wouldnt be would it if there were demands,conditions or expectations attached to our free will? , but our will is free to do as we please, because it is through us that the God figure ,experiences life on earth through our experience and in that sense all experience is good? I mean we are Conductors of the experience for the lord to feel.

Plato has a point in recognising this? so why didnt socrates? why did socrates want to project his own ideolgy and beliefs of how the masses should logically think , deduce and reason according his own views ,onto others? Maybe his will of how others should be but, whats it got to do with him?

LOL or was he just a teacher trying to teach? hmm assisting with expansion of others awareness for their own sake or his? I mean were and are the people today happy living ignorance is bliss ?

Appologies I'm ignorant with socrates works and i seem to link to god (figure,superior force) often when thinking of our purpose.


Surely it matters only to each individual as to how they themselves think, or may not think or remain ignorant to thinking, which some say is a state of bliss? I can see why as with awareness comes a cost? The extra exposure to others suffering, a small price ? hmm dunno you feel it at times constantly aware of it, it belongs to others ,those feelings their experience but....

You have put a slant on this that is interesting.

Think of how God created Man in his Image....what does this mean ?

It means that mankind is priviledged in the sense that on earth mankind is on the highest rung of animal creation. This places on mankind a huge responibility with all kinds of branches of unspoken obligations attached to that responisbility.

If you want to bring religion into it you can, but bear in mind that all religions embrace the idea of mankind accepting responsibility and acting properly, and any other connection with ritual is secondary.

It means that because mankind is above the animal kingdom by virtue of being able to communicate and record that communication.... by being able to think and act in accordance with that thinking, ....by reasoning and being able to behave in accordance with that reasoning...then this places on mankind a huge responisibility.

Mankind has responsibility for the environement, for the custodianship of nature, for recoginition of what is divine, and ultimately for the government of self.

This responisibility mankind is entrusted to discharge touches everything, not only for mankind to act as custodians of the environment that surrounds us but additionally for us to exercise choice in the discharge of that responisbility which is huge.

Now, you approach the matter of choice in human life...as an excercise of free will.

Consider the excercise of free will within the context of what I have mentioned above.

As this thread is about thinking correctle and specifically about thinking correctly in the environment of trading, it is appropriate to ignore beliefs in trading and concentrate exclusively on realities.

These realities have to be confronted and dealt with, as a manisfestation of self responsibility and self governance of the highest order.

We have to entrust ourselves to act in a godlike manner in this respect instead of being misdirected and being led to follow blind beliefs that have no place in the reality of the marketplace at all.

So therefore it is relevant to relate to goldlike behaviour but not as observers, but as practitioners by not wishing or hoping or daydreaming but by developing the ability to confront and deal with situations and taking full responisibility at all times.

And no one, by the way, is exonerated from doing this, hence the requirement which is at the root of everything, namely, the need to be able to think correctly and not incorrectly.

 

[SOCRATES]

Excellent read, so very interesting. I'm not too clued up on philosophy but reading about it has led me to think about the following.

With my management cap on, there must be some way of measuring or quantifying the objectives. Basically, like measuring efficiency or productivity.

Like cause -> effect -> outcome? desired or not desired etc etc.

For example

1. I think...
2. I think I understand
3. I trade
4. I'm right I make a profit :cheesy:
5. I'm wrong I make a loss

Without the profit or loss there is no conclusion but only Socrates thoughts perhaps as in knowing that I still don't know nothing.

What was the objective and how can it be quantified or measured :?:

Wouldn't such quantifiable results give us answers to our thoughts :?: and perhaps more meaningful conclusions?

But you are already doing it are you not ?

You are taking responsibility for your very own actions are you not ?

You are doing this because you are in charge, and not delegating responisibility to someone or something else, or seeking shortcuts (that do not exist) or seeking to share, or ultimately trying to take refuge in beliefs.

So this is a very important step to actually thinking the way you ought to think when trading.

Just carry on like this, it is the right road to follow.

 

[SOCRATES]

This is really a great thread, a nice exchange of thoughts. Its only my opinion that the correct way to think about the markets is much easier than most think. It begins with what you think the market really is. Many think the market is special and can be mastered by careful study and complex proprietary tools. They will repeat their system and win and win and win.I don't believe in this. They force their plan on the current conditions of the market rather than making a plan based on conditions exactly at the moment. Think of trading as it really is, its not investing its gambling. Once you accept this you are on your way to actually making money. I think the path to victory in trading is best summed up by a Bill O'neil of IBD quote. "The best loser is the greatest winner" For me nothing is more right on. You will lose at trades all the time but your winners should always out weigh your losses. Instead of calling yourself a trader call your self a risk manager. Put on trades at opportune locations with very little risk. In others words you know you are wrong very very quickly and have the discipline to exit right when you think you "may" be wrong. If you are proven right add on to your position. If you repeat this several times on a daily basis at the end of the day should have positive cash flow. For me its really that simple and most importantly don't over-complicate things just put wagers on at strategic locations and exit as fast as you can if your wrong.

Correct.

As I say above, it is all about confronting realities.

It is about ignoring beliefs.

It is about dealing with realities as presernted and then acting upon them or not, but ultimately it is about taking responisbility for your own very actions, yourself.

Good Post.

 

[Splitlink]

What does the expression "taking responsibility for one's own actions" mean, exactly? Does it mean that it is possible for an online trader who is, literally, all by himself when taking trading decisions to blame someone else for his mistakes?

I find that to be quite unrealistic. In my case, I am very conscious of the fact that when I press the button there will be no one to blame but myself. I am sure that most of us think alike in that respect. Regardless of whether we are good traders, or not, the responsibility for any action that we take must lie with each of us.

Split

 

[peto]

Does it mean that it is possible for an online trader who is, literally, all by himself when taking trading decisions to blame someone else for his mistakes?
I find that to be quite unrealistic.
Split

Not at all. I blame the market-makers for manipulating the price and stop-running, the Spread-bet co's for delaying fills and refusing to take trades, hedge funds for placing huge orders spiking the price triggering and causing excess slippage on my stops, spread traders for messing up my reading of volume, world governments for intervening in the market and slewing the prices, my ISP for dropping my broadband just after I've entered a trade, my data provider for lagging prices and absurd spikes, and my dog which generaly asks to go out just before NFP release. Clearly none of this is my fault.

 

[andycan]

Not at all. I blame the market-makers for manipulating the price and stop-running, the Spread-bet co's for delaying fills and refusing to take trades, hedge funds for placing huge orders spiking the price triggering and causing excess slippage on my stops, spread traders for messing up my reading of volume, world governments for intervening in the market and slewing the prices, my ISP for dropping my broadband just after I've entered a trade, my data provider for lagging prices and absurd spikes, and my dog which generaly asks to go out just before NFP release. Clearly none of this is my fault.

And the choice to trade is????

 

[SOCRATES]

What does the expression "taking responsibility for one's own actions" mean, exactly? Does it mean that it is possible for an online trader who is, literally, all by himself when taking trading decisions to blame someone else for his mistakes?

I find that to be quite unrealistic. In my case, I am very conscious of the fact that when I press the button there will be no one to blame but myself. I am sure that most of us think alike in that respect. Regardless of whether we are good traders, or not, the responsibility for any action that we take must lie with each of us.

Split

.:cheesy:...I am beginning to enjoy this....

 

[peto]

And the choice to trade is????

oh dear
there was a little wink at the bottom, andycan...

 

[andycan]

oh dear
there was a little wink at the bottom, andycan...

I know just messing

 

[neil]

and................

Not at all. I blame the market-makers for manipulating the price and stop-running, the Spread-bet co's for delaying fills and refusing to take trades, hedge funds for placing huge orders spiking the price triggering and causing excess slippage on my stops, spread traders for messing up my reading of volume, world governments for intervening in the market and slewing the prices, my ISP for dropping my broadband just after I've entered a trade, my data provider for lagging prices and absurd spikes, and my dog which generaly asks to go out just before NFP release. Clearly none of this is my fault.

.................and don't forget those criminal signal providers who take your money and give out signals that fail to make a profit plus those bar stewards that sell you a system that doesn't reap the profits trumpeted by the vendor. None of this is your fault

 

[peto]

I know just messing

:cheesy:

.................and don't forget those criminal signal providers who take your money and give out signals that fail to make a profit plus those bar stewards that sell you a system that doesn't reap the profits trumpeted by the vendor. None of this is your fault

Tell me about it. It's enough to give me a headache....which leads to lost concentration... causing losses which aren't my fault either.

 

[Atilla]

.:cheesy:...I am beginning to enjoy this....

Responsibility - Fault - Blame - in response to numerous events beyond our control. This to me sounds like management speel at work (IT)...

Perhaps this is what they mean by good money management?

 

[jacinto]

What does the expression "taking responsibility for one's own actions" mean, exactly? Does it mean that it is possible for an online trader who is, literally, all by himself when taking trading decisions to blame someone else for his mistakes?

I find that to be quite unrealistic. In my case, I am very conscious of the fact that when I press the button there will be no one to blame but myself. I am sure that most of us think alike in that respect. Regardless of whether we are good traders, or not, the responsibility for any action that we take must lie with each of us.

Split

it means that through the use of reason you have accomplished true freedom. Every time you are faced with an option to act, you choose to act or not, and thus either enjoy the benefits or suffer the consequences of your decision to act or not. That means you are truly free.