Crap Buddist said:
Even then you are investing, time and money. Try systematic prediction instead and do not worry about the money anyway. If you do worry about the money in such cases you will probably spent a lot of time "watching the screen"
Alex
Even then you are investing, time and money. Try systematic prediction instead and do not worry about the money anyway. If you do worry about the money in such cases you will probably spent a lot of time "watching the screen"
Alex
For what it is worth these are my thoughts.
To avoid trading turning into gambling the golden rule most traders give and most of us ignore is that you have to be well capitalised and or have realistic expectations of what you can achieve with what you have to play with.
It you trade larger than you 'should' be you get a kick out of the winners and losers and as such the losers become harder to take wins are 'too' exciting and it may become addictive. My trading improved when I had a little more in my account and the profits and losses didn't excite me either way as they were quite small relative to my pot. My advice through this experience is that if anyone is finding they are trading for kicks then chop your size down concentrate on the process and ignore the money it will be boring but profitable and you begin to enjoy trading in a different way.
The second way I moved from gambling to trading and stop myself going back to trading is to turn my computer off if I feel I am about to enter a trade because I'm bored. Then hit the driving range or gym and come back refreshed and ready to trade or not trade as required.
The third method that worked for me was to split me as a trader and me as a trader. I went through enormous highs when I'd won, went out drinking in a big way, probably came across as a bit of a pr*ck in all honesty at times (I was only 20 so forgive me!) or when I lost became withdrawn didn't want to go out talk to friends spend any money mix with people at all.
Over time I managed to split the different jobs I have, mate, trader, boyfriend, son etc and even when trading was bad took pride in being good at my other jobs. It settled me down, stopped the mood swings and in turn the account swings.
As as been said already I think you need to be comfortable with who you are, what you are doing and secure that no matter what the outcome of your trading career you're not a bad bloke over all. For me this was the key tp unlocking a more stable and growing account.
Hope these pointers are of use to someone, they are just things I've learnt the hard way and am no reaping the rewards from.
A couple of quotes spring to mind that sum up, to my mind the mind set needed to trade well over years and stay on the right side of gambling. I'm afraid I can't recall the exact words or person but roughly:
Someone in 'The New Market Wizards'. "I trade so small so as that it doesn't even seem worth it".
A hedge fund manager quoted on the radio the other day in charge of $50billion or something: "To this day when I get home my wife can't guess if I've had a good day or not".
Thanks
Stephen McCreedy
To avoid trading turning into gambling the golden rule most traders give and most of us ignore is that you have to be well capitalised and or have realistic expectations of what you can achieve with what you have to play with.
It you trade larger than you 'should' be you get a kick out of the winners and losers and as such the losers become harder to take wins are 'too' exciting and it may become addictive. My trading improved when I had a little more in my account and the profits and losses didn't excite me either way as they were quite small relative to my pot. My advice through this experience is that if anyone is finding they are trading for kicks then chop your size down concentrate on the process and ignore the money it will be boring but profitable and you begin to enjoy trading in a different way.
The second way I moved from gambling to trading and stop myself going back to trading is to turn my computer off if I feel I am about to enter a trade because I'm bored. Then hit the driving range or gym and come back refreshed and ready to trade or not trade as required.
The third method that worked for me was to split me as a trader and me as a trader. I went through enormous highs when I'd won, went out drinking in a big way, probably came across as a bit of a pr*ck in all honesty at times (I was only 20 so forgive me!) or when I lost became withdrawn didn't want to go out talk to friends spend any money mix with people at all.
Over time I managed to split the different jobs I have, mate, trader, boyfriend, son etc and even when trading was bad took pride in being good at my other jobs. It settled me down, stopped the mood swings and in turn the account swings.
As as been said already I think you need to be comfortable with who you are, what you are doing and secure that no matter what the outcome of your trading career you're not a bad bloke over all. For me this was the key tp unlocking a more stable and growing account.
Hope these pointers are of use to someone, they are just things I've learnt the hard way and am no reaping the rewards from.
A couple of quotes spring to mind that sum up, to my mind the mind set needed to trade well over years and stay on the right side of gambling. I'm afraid I can't recall the exact words or person but roughly:
Someone in 'The New Market Wizards'. "I trade so small so as that it doesn't even seem worth it".
A hedge fund manager quoted on the radio the other day in charge of $50billion or something: "To this day when I get home my wife can't guess if I've had a good day or not".
Thanks
Stephen McCreedy
Crap Buddist
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wonderfuls.
we be sharings the times and the monies....... to be thinkings of datings as investings is meanings you be wantings and expectings returns from the wonderfuls womans.... thus if we have none of the expectings ,none of the wantings we can have a wonderfuls datings experience of sharings with each others.
This ways henks always get to touch all of the bases..... for sure.
alexander said:Even then you are investing, time and money. Try systematic prediction instead and do not worry about the money anyway. If you do worry about the money in such cases you will probably spent a lot of time "watching the screen"
Alex
we be sharings the times and the monies.......
to be thinkings of datings as investings is meanings you be wantings and expectings returns from the wonderfuls womans.... thus if we have none of the expectings ,none of the wantings we can have a wonderfuls datings experience of sharings with each others.This ways henks always get to touch all of the bases..... for sure.
in2uxs
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Top post SMCCREEDY
"boring but profitable" is indeed a phrase to remember. When I started trading I treated it as gambling really out of naivety. As loses mounted I'd risk more and more hoping that I'd guess the direction correctly and recoup my losses - it never happened and have been liquidated more times than prize winning souping tomatoes.
I then adopted a system - quiet a simple one - and bugger me I actually made money. I've used several strategies over the last few months and all work extremely well - basically making 30% in a month, and when your start compounding such profits you can soon make an absolute fortune. The key thing to any strategy is to invest a relative small amount compared to your pot. No-one can foresee what the stock market is going to do so it takes out all the stress if you have plenty in reserve to see over such times. The phrase "boring but profitable" is excellent - and should your investments be more thrilling than boring then it's time to sell up before you go bust!
I think a lot of people turn from profit making investor to gambler as a lot of people actually feel guilty about making money so easily, and so they set about ruining themselves in order to satisfy some deep feeling of "well, making money is never that easy, is it?". A lot of people are told from a very young age that making money is very hard and is something only others can do, so with a brain full of that it is hardly surprising that a lot of people have a lot of inner conflicts going on when they realise they can make more money in a week that others do in a month.
It is maybe this belief that we're "getting above ourselves" - especially among those that have had a working class background - why we gamble away our profits. We can then give up trading - blaming others - and end up getting a job at Tesco's again. I think until you can re-educated your own mind that you deserve what you make then you'll only end up sabotaging you own funds.
"boring but profitable" is indeed a phrase to remember. When I started trading I treated it as gambling really out of naivety. As loses mounted I'd risk more and more hoping that I'd guess the direction correctly and recoup my losses - it never happened and have been liquidated more times than prize winning souping tomatoes.
I then adopted a system - quiet a simple one - and bugger me I actually made money. I've used several strategies over the last few months and all work extremely well - basically making 30% in a month, and when your start compounding such profits you can soon make an absolute fortune. The key thing to any strategy is to invest a relative small amount compared to your pot. No-one can foresee what the stock market is going to do so it takes out all the stress if you have plenty in reserve to see over such times. The phrase "boring but profitable" is excellent - and should your investments be more thrilling than boring then it's time to sell up before you go bust!
I think a lot of people turn from profit making investor to gambler as a lot of people actually feel guilty about making money so easily, and so they set about ruining themselves in order to satisfy some deep feeling of "well, making money is never that easy, is it?". A lot of people are told from a very young age that making money is very hard and is something only others can do, so with a brain full of that it is hardly surprising that a lot of people have a lot of inner conflicts going on when they realise they can make more money in a week that others do in a month.
It is maybe this belief that we're "getting above ourselves" - especially among those that have had a working class background - why we gamble away our profits. We can then give up trading - blaming others - and end up getting a job at Tesco's again. I think until you can re-educated your own mind that you deserve what you make then you'll only end up sabotaging you own funds.
Thanks!
I sense a lot of your ideas are similar to mine.
Deep down I know I can suceed in this game, making money for 11 months and blowing it all in one isn't 'the way it goes' as many people like to say, you don't have to 'take the rough with the smooth' to that extent as non trading people believe.
If you are making money most of the time, quite consistently and carefully, then blowing it in one go I think it's something to do with conflicts in side of your head combined with basic trading errors, averaging losers etc.
For me the issues seem to be a fear of success, not sure why maybe it's because my peers are 'normal' people and I don't want to get too far removed from them.
Maybe I am scared of trying properly only to fail where as if I sabotage myself almost deliberately I can pretend that I'm not trying properly yet, but when I do I'll be alright.
I'm not sure what my problems are but I am looking to Hypnosis, NLP or life coaching to help them get resolved, I also want to get to an Trading Tribe soon too.
If anyone on these boards have experience in any of the above technique or offers them with testimonials to back them up please get in touch with me direct at [email protected]
I am keen to dissolve whats standing in the way of me making money and keeping hold of it!
Stephen McCreedy
I sense a lot of your ideas are similar to mine.
Deep down I know I can suceed in this game, making money for 11 months and blowing it all in one isn't 'the way it goes' as many people like to say, you don't have to 'take the rough with the smooth' to that extent as non trading people believe.
If you are making money most of the time, quite consistently and carefully, then blowing it in one go I think it's something to do with conflicts in side of your head combined with basic trading errors, averaging losers etc.
For me the issues seem to be a fear of success, not sure why maybe it's because my peers are 'normal' people and I don't want to get too far removed from them.
Maybe I am scared of trying properly only to fail where as if I sabotage myself almost deliberately I can pretend that I'm not trying properly yet, but when I do I'll be alright.
I'm not sure what my problems are but I am looking to Hypnosis, NLP or life coaching to help them get resolved, I also want to get to an Trading Tribe soon too.
If anyone on these boards have experience in any of the above technique or offers them with testimonials to back them up please get in touch with me direct at [email protected]
I am keen to dissolve whats standing in the way of me making money and keeping hold of it!
Stephen McCreedy
in2uxs
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"I am keen to dissolve whats standing in the way of me making money and keeping hold of it!"
lol
Indeed
I said in another thread a few days ago that's its not how much you make but how much you can hold on to. You should read the book "The Midas Method by Stuart Goldsmith. That tells you all about self sabotage and ways to kill it off once and for all. It really is a good book.
Before anyone says .... no i'm not spamming it.
lol
Indeed
I said in another thread a few days ago that's its not how much you make but how much you can hold on to. You should read the book "The Midas Method by Stuart Goldsmith. That tells you all about self sabotage and ways to kill it off once and for all. It really is a good book.
Before anyone says .... no i'm not spamming it.
Thanks that's a new book to me so will go and have a look.
I do think traders can spend too long tweaking which lag to use or what % stop loss and then go and lose money because there head is not straight.
I have been trading full time since March 2000, I reckon in the first two years I 'knew' what I needed to do to make money and since then my ideas have evolved but are not too far from what I was trying to do back then (10 points a day net of the FTSE Fut on LIFFE). I went full circle when things didn't work, tried knew ideas and then those didn't work so gravitated back to my original plan. In truth I think everything I tried was workable and valid it was the operator that was causing the losses not the system I was meant to be operating.
I still have my demons but would back myself to take 200 points a month off LIFFE, probably even more and if I can keep my head and up the size I reckon there is enough liquidity to turn that in to around £250,000 a year salary.
It's not my system I need to refine, it's my inner demons I need to address.
Thanks for the heads up.
Stephen McCreedy
I do think traders can spend too long tweaking which lag to use or what % stop loss and then go and lose money because there head is not straight.
I have been trading full time since March 2000, I reckon in the first two years I 'knew' what I needed to do to make money and since then my ideas have evolved but are not too far from what I was trying to do back then (10 points a day net of the FTSE Fut on LIFFE). I went full circle when things didn't work, tried knew ideas and then those didn't work so gravitated back to my original plan. In truth I think everything I tried was workable and valid it was the operator that was causing the losses not the system I was meant to be operating.
I still have my demons but would back myself to take 200 points a month off LIFFE, probably even more and if I can keep my head and up the size I reckon there is enough liquidity to turn that in to around £250,000 a year salary.
It's not my system I need to refine, it's my inner demons I need to address.
Thanks for the heads up.
Stephen McCreedy
Incedentally that wasn't meant as a boast, at the mo I only trade one lot (£10pp) as my inner demons seem to get in the way when I up the size. My aim is to take 10 points a day with 10 lots, in theory no more dificult than what I do know. In practice a lot harder than it is now!
Stephen McCreedy
Stephen McCreedy
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29Investments
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It doesn't matter if Trading is a form of Gambling as long as you consistently win.
By placing slective well timed trades and practicing prudent money management it is possible to put the odds in your favour. By doing this you effectively become the Bookie rather than the Punter.
Even though the Bookie is also a professional gambler they are not viewed in the same way as a professional gambler as the odds are in their favour and they can be expected to win over time.
Therefore; have a plan, practice money management, put the odds in your favour, make consistent profits, then................. No problem and never mind about the labels.
By placing slective well timed trades and practicing prudent money management it is possible to put the odds in your favour. By doing this you effectively become the Bookie rather than the Punter.
Even though the Bookie is also a professional gambler they are not viewed in the same way as a professional gambler as the odds are in their favour and they can be expected to win over time.
Therefore; have a plan, practice money management, put the odds in your favour, make consistent profits, then................. No problem and never mind about the labels.
Interesting discussion. Gambling as apposed to trading is something that has bothered me for the past few years.As a private trader from home once success comes so easily and all yearly targets achieved for 5 years , where do you go ? In my case,you can only increase size to a certain level before it turns into an outright gamble where size ignores fundamental criteria which have always worked ie. 'reading' the order book. Also trying to influence order book with fake orders distorts the picture as it makes all trades seem like good ones . Moreover when the fakes are hit, the overall size of the trade makes the whole thing just a punt.
End result is 4- 5 figure swings almost daily. Not great for the nerves but then its the gambler who's in control sadly!!
End result is 4- 5 figure swings almost daily. Not great for the nerves but then its the gambler who's in control sadly!!
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Profitaker
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Trading is gambling, but so are lots of other activities in life, such as crossing the road.
What's wrong with gambling anyway ?
What's wrong with gambling anyway ?
firewalker99
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Interesting thread... equally or even more interesting are these books:
Fooled by Randomness: The Hidden Role of Chance in the Markets and Life (Nassim Taleb)
The Nature of Risk: Stock Market Survival & the Meaning of Life (Justin Mamis)
for anyone interested in risk, trading, gambling, probability, chance,...
donaldduke
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There isnt much written about trading turning into gambling.
Bill Eckhardt touches on the subject in New Market Wizards.
When he talks about winning and losing and intermitant reinforcement being so addictive.
I think the highs ands lows created by constantly winning and losing probably fire off all sorts of chemicals in your brain. This is why day trading is so emotionally tough.
Everyones is wired differently and some people can handle the emotions of winning and losing alot better than others.
Van Tharp talks about how the floor traders in Chicago would board busses and attend dog races or floating casinos after the pits closed. Obviously it was only those traders that couldnt handle coming off the rush created by constantly winning and losing all day that needed to do this.
Personally i auto trade my futures account, everything i do is automated. No human intervention at all, unless something goes wrong (program crashes etc).
This cuts down vastly on the number of points in your trading that can turn into gambling or overtrading.
When i manually trade in my Spread bet account i still descend into gambling mode (mostly revenge trading or impulsive trading) quite often..
Bill Eckhardt touches on the subject in New Market Wizards.
When he talks about winning and losing and intermitant reinforcement being so addictive.
I think the highs ands lows created by constantly winning and losing probably fire off all sorts of chemicals in your brain. This is why day trading is so emotionally tough.
Everyones is wired differently and some people can handle the emotions of winning and losing alot better than others.
Van Tharp talks about how the floor traders in Chicago would board busses and attend dog races or floating casinos after the pits closed. Obviously it was only those traders that couldnt handle coming off the rush created by constantly winning and losing all day that needed to do this.
Personally i auto trade my futures account, everything i do is automated. No human intervention at all, unless something goes wrong (program crashes etc).
This cuts down vastly on the number of points in your trading that can turn into gambling or overtrading.
When i manually trade in my Spread bet account i still descend into gambling mode (mostly revenge trading or impulsive trading) quite often..
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oiltanker
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when does crossing a road become gambling?
look up sabotage in the thesaurus and then find the opposites to the words you find there and say them like a mantra. once you know how you feel and want to change it say its opposite.
everyone has to find a time frame that suits them. as a retailer i am making money from stuff i bought 5 years ago. so its about having a basket of goods. some will lose others will win. i don't mind holding a forex trade for 10 days because i'm used to holding goods in my retail trade for years.
look up sabotage in the thesaurus and then find the opposites to the words you find there and say them like a mantra. once you know how you feel and want to change it say its opposite.
everyone has to find a time frame that suits them. as a retailer i am making money from stuff i bought 5 years ago. so its about having a basket of goods. some will lose others will win. i don't mind holding a forex trade for 10 days because i'm used to holding goods in my retail trade for years.
it may be wrong to formulate question trading vs. gambling, there is not much difference between two. What makes real difference is pros vs. amateurs question. Pros in gambling and trading earn money and amateurs in both activities lose.
Main tool of a pro is active risk management - he manages risk and expects probable favorable outcome on a larger statistical sample.
Main tool of a pro is active risk management - he manages risk and expects probable favorable outcome on a larger statistical sample.
fibonelli
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FWIW
I generally don't see trading as gambling because in trading you can cut your losses early or take your profits as per your plan.
With gambling you cannot take make decisions during an event as your exit is dependent on the result of a discrete event.
It is obviously different if you do "in running" gambling where, like trading, you can choose your exit point.
I generally don't see trading as gambling because in trading you can cut your losses early or take your profits as per your plan.
With gambling you cannot take make decisions during an event as your exit is dependent on the result of a discrete event.
It is obviously different if you do "in running" gambling where, like trading, you can choose your exit point.
RogerTheTrader
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Gambling?
I live in Las Vegas, USA... I am a full-time trader and an occassional gambler. Trading involves probability, research, self-discipline, strategy, intellect, science and art. Gambling involves green felt, bounces and lucky draws. One makes you money, the other entertains you for a price... but you get free drinks with the latter. And the stock market doesn't have any pretty waitresses.
Anyone that calls trading gambling is really saying, "I have no clue what the markets are about. I really wish I could make money, but I'm too lazy to study even one stock or index and would rather slave away at a job for the rest of my life and settle for less. In the meantime, I'll mock you because that makes me feel momentarily superior and represses my fear that you could be getting rich with all of your hard work. And if you do get rich, then I'll say you were just lucky or it was all chalked up to just happening to be in a bull market when no one else was looking."
Fools.
Happy trading to all of those that have the courage to look at a chart make a decision and pull the trigger.
Roger
The Trader
Live In Vegas
I live in Las Vegas, USA... I am a full-time trader and an occassional gambler. Trading involves probability, research, self-discipline, strategy, intellect, science and art. Gambling involves green felt, bounces and lucky draws. One makes you money, the other entertains you for a price... but you get free drinks with the latter. And the stock market doesn't have any pretty waitresses.
Anyone that calls trading gambling is really saying, "I have no clue what the markets are about. I really wish I could make money, but I'm too lazy to study even one stock or index and would rather slave away at a job for the rest of my life and settle for less. In the meantime, I'll mock you because that makes me feel momentarily superior and represses my fear that you could be getting rich with all of your hard work. And if you do get rich, then I'll say you were just lucky or it was all chalked up to just happening to be in a bull market when no one else was looking."
Fools.
Happy trading to all of those that have the courage to look at a chart make a decision and pull the trigger.
Roger
The Trader
Live In Vegas
nine
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Para 1: Essentially agreed: the difference is in what one is (aiming to) get out of it. Gambling gets the thrill and excitement. Professional chancers get money by taking calculated risk when the edge is present.
Para 2: Hmmmm ...
Para 3: Not agreed really. Gamblers have no difficulty pulling the trigger (except at extreme lows of their cycles). Those trying to be professional chancers are more likely to have trigger pulling problems.
But yes, may you be happy to be professionally executing your edges whether they are profitable today or not (be happy (satisfied) in the process (not the outcome)).
timsk
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Hi Roger,
Welcome to T2W!
This is the best debut post I've ever read, full of wisdom and wit. Love it.
Tim.
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