Are we all just gambling?

It's in the why not the how:
Gambling is primarily for the thrill.
Trading is primarily to make money.

The different why's then result in different behaviours etc. Traders won't participate if they can't develop a statistically valid edge so roulette with a straight wheel is out. Traders are more likely to plan and execute in a business like manner (although that can be part of the game for some degenerate gamblers).

Strange as it may seem, there is no such thing as a straight roulette wheel. Gamblers in the past have been know to frequent certain wheels to suss out their characteristics and play accordingly. For this reason casinos regularly change roulette wheel to prevent this.:cheesy:
 
The definition of gambling:

1. Money that is risked for possible monetary gain
2. Take a risk in the hope of a favorable outcome.


Do those two statements define most of your trading activity? Just as somebody would study sport as a hobby and back their views, are traders not just learning about and studying the markets and ''taking a risk in the hope of a favorable outcome''

However we access the markets, whatever we trade or buy we are all taking ''risk in the hope of possible monetary gain''

I know a guy whose life has gone downhill since he secretly started gambling heavily on the horses and football - he nearly lost his shirt. I bet there are just as many stories of people loosing all their money, wife, car, sanity etc... 'gambling' on the markets.

Trading is without doubt a more intellectually challenging and sophisticated form of gambling - people who do it full time are really just informed gamblers.

This is how I see it


When you start trading every decision is like spinning a roulette wheel with all 36 numbers present as you spin. As you gain more knowledge, discipline and skill - those numbers start to whittle away giving you more chance of being successful.

Is this any different to analyzing premiership football and making your money there? I know it is all very impressive explaining to people your a trader but I wonder if we would get such a positive reaction introducing ourselves as professional gamblers at dinner party's??

What make TA or fundamental analysis any different to studying form when betting on horses????

What do you guy's think?

JK



My idea is that there's different forms of gambling,
for example, if playing a casino fruit machine you are guaranteed to lose in the long run,
if playinmg poker, you can slowlly develop the ability to see into your opponents eyes,
categorize types of players into different groups, and finally make it so that you win anyone less good that you,
when good players face each other, the tendency of the game is to come to a draw....

In the markets i think most newcomers are gambling, they are using some illusive
system which fails eventually,
most books on trading mention about discipline, improving your character, etc

first it's impossible to improve or change your character on taking risks and how
you cope under pressure, different people have different skills and that fundamentally
will not change, we just grow older and can only grow wiser,

as for discipline and mechanical trading, i think it's a misconception,
market movements contain some kind of human emotion element which brings
uniqueness and non-repeat action to the trading day, mechanical trading systems
can't catch up with the speed of highly-alert state traders


The bottom line is that the stockmarket has closed more homes and marrriages
and made people go broke than has made millionaires... those who lose are
greedy, unpatient people who like to be in control of their lives, they drive fast,
react violently, or are just low profile gullible people,
winning traders are gamble addicts but are patient, more stable under stress,
not easily taken by fear, not easily getting excited over success and they are 'hard to bend'
personalities, they are not at all easily convinced by exiciting language such as that used
by salesmen or TV ads.

If TV adverts work well on you, and you are not able to disagree with salesmen calling on the phone, or Car salesmen then I'm sorry but you are not an analytical mind,
you are not in a position to spot the pitfalls and most likely you won't in
the financial markets either!

which brings me to a well known saying;
'When everyone thinks alike there isn't any thinking going on' '
 
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Its pretty simple for me,
Trading is a calculated risk based on technicals and methods.
Gambling is a risk based on nothing.
 
Trading is a calculated risk based on technicals and methods.

Even in doing this you can still lose more money than you actually have as I have seen it happen to others on unexpected news.


Paul
 
Gambling or Trading

Its Gambling if you want it to be. How many times as that been said of many things. How many people think their life is a Gamble ?
 
Personally I think trading is gambling. However what separates us from the sports/horse racing is that we try to trade with the odds - not against them.
 
Personally I think trading is gambling. However what separates us from the sports/horse racing is that we try to trade with the odds - not against them.

Perhaps the UK Goverment can help to clarify the difference:-
In general Gambling is not taxed, whereas Trading and Investing is taxed and you can offset losses against gains and include costs.
e.g. So as far as the Goverment is concerned Spreadbetting is gambling, not trading.

Glenn
 
Trading or Gambling what does it matter?

My friends all life is a gamble, we are insignificant actors put on a stage signifying nothing!

If you don't want to gamble just don't walk out of the street to cross the road tomorrw to buy you groceries!

Trading is a gambling activity, but then so is all forms of business in which profit is expected from capital commitments. However I am far happier gambling as a trader in which I can control my odds and manage my risk then to pass it to so call elected **** who gamble away with not just money but our lives in ventures such as Iraq, where risk/reward ratio were known to be inifinty from the start.

Its all about how smart you want to be.
 
I just wish I could conquer the randomness of Betfair Games....Texas Hold Em, etc.

This is 24/7 gambling and could lead to untold riches if I could devise a system to combat the randomness of the draw of the cards.

Alas, to date I have been unsuccessful.


Been fiddling around with triggers, parameters on the gambling bot that I use for Betfair games.

I may have stumbled across a winning formula or I may just have been lucky.

I entered my new conditions into the bot software, switched it on fully automatic ( incl. auto green-up ) at 2pm on Saturday.

48 hours later I am up by £ 247.21.

Set a stop loss of £ 35.00 but this was never approached.

Now going into the 3rd day and keeping fingers crossed.

Now for the bad news.

The bot is set to TEST MODE....aaarghhhh !!!!!!!!
 
Gambling: Only hope (emotion) without an edge, high risk, low reward

Card Counting: Gambling with an edge, taking moderate risk + betting system=good reward

Trading with stops and system approach: Gives you an edge to improve chances and reward (much less emotion and more system)

Trading without any clue: Worse than blackjack! You'll get burned playing like this.

Overall, trading can be like gambling. But not really. I'll be using a blackjack betting method to pile up my profits from my system, but I won't be "gambling" off of hope. Although sometimes it's okay to just "throw the dice" if you have a keen hunch. Of course you can't throw those dice without a Stop-Loss :) trading is unlimited gain or loss.

People who do not trade can't even begin to understand that there is a difference. When I go to the casino, I expect to leave with nothing (and have fun losing my money!). There isn't much of an edge in blackjack these days because of the multiple decks, so card counting is out. There are no technical indicators...except for when the shoe is fresh and face cards are showing up more than 1 hand in a row, then you bet more. There is also a double down method that works very well when you have a total of 10 or 11 points...there is a good chance next card is a 9,10, face or ACE. You could call that an indicator.

I watched a guy go all in on a certain "HOT" round of blackjack and he doubled his money and then preceded to lose it all. He started to hope the next rounds would be just as good, but his luck ran out and so did his chips!

But if you trade well, who cares what IT IS and what IT IS NOT? Keep reeling in the profits and just call it "the job." You will find that most people are highly impressed by trader knowledge...support, resistance, indicators, MA's, volume, order flow...These things make it sound FAR from gambling. Surely trading is a more involved process than simply throwing down a "chip or two" and hoping for the best!

Black jack...HIT or STAY? That's it. You either Bust and lose everything you bet, or dealer busts and you now have 2 chips instead of 1. In trading, we use stops, so if the system is halfway decent, it's easy to break even or take small profit. Once and a while we hit it big...of course, we always try our best to TRAIL the profit, because we don't want to "gamble."

Trading is both gambling and logical reasoning combined. It's the best of both worlds, depending on how YOU decide how to play! Taking risk can be rewarding, even if the logic isn't fully backed up in every situation.

Hmm, I need to get back to the casino soon. Who else loves blackjack?
I must be a gambler...
and a trader.

-And yes, someone stated that "Life is a gamble." Very true statement. Everyday situations can pull us between two choices and we must chose one or the other. Sometimes you pick the good one, other times you get caught in a not so good situation-

Do I go to this party or that party?
Hang with my bros today or girly gal pal?
Do I date that gal or this gal?
Walk or run?
grocery shop for produce in the morning or at night (night time shopping for produce is a gamble)?
and the list goes on and on...
 
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If u r certain 100% from the outcome , then u r not gambling , for example : lets say there tensions in the middle east and suddenly Saudia Arabia stopped exporting crude oil , if u bought Crude oil u r not a gambler ...
or : if an insider told u that this bank will go for bankruptcy then u sold short this bank stocks , in this case u r not gambling ..
 
If u r certain 100% from the outcome , then u r not gambling , for example : lets say there tensions in the middle east and suddenly Saudia Arabia stopped exporting crude oil , if u bought Crude oil u r not a gambler ...
or : if an insider told u that this bank will go for bankruptcy then u sold short this bank stocks , in this case u r not gambling ..

Partly true. But is anyone here equipped with 100% certainty when they decide to go long cable or short eur/usd. Thought not....
 
Life, in general, is a calculated risk. You either get it right, or you don't. Ask those out of work, who thought that they had a career for life. Or those who took out a franchise which has had to close. I heard that Starbucks have closed 300 outlets in the US. They were franchisees, ask them.

My "gambling" with the betspreaders has not entailed, anywhere near, the risk that those poor people took but, at the time, they thought that they were onto an income for life.

Split
 
:smart:
The definition of gambling:

1. Money that is risked for possible monetary gain
2. Take a risk in the hope of a favorable outcome.


Do those two statements define most of your trading activity? Just as somebody would study sport as a hobby and back their views, are traders not just learning about and studying the markets and ''taking a risk in the hope of a favorable outcome''

However we access the markets, whatever we trade or buy we are all taking ''risk in the hope of possible monetary gain''

I know a guy whose life has gone downhill since he secretly started gambling heavily on the horses and football - he nearly lost his shirt. I bet there are just as many stories of people loosing all their money, wife, car, sanity etc... 'gambling' on the markets.

Trading is without doubt a more intellectually challenging and sophisticated form of gambling - people who do it full time are really just informed gamblers.

This is how I see it


When you start trading every decision is like spinning a roulette wheel with all 36 numbers present as you spin. As you gain more knowledge, discipline and skill - those numbers start to whittle away giving you more chance of being successful.

Is this any different to analyzing premiership football and making your money there? I know it is all very impressive explaining to people your a trader but I wonder if we would get such a positive reaction introducing ourselves as professional gamblers at dinner party's??

What make TA or fundamental analysis any different to studying form when betting on horses????

What do you guy's think?

JK

:smart: It is gambling .... of course it is. We can't CONTROL the outcome, but like poker, there is a skill, and there are good and bad players. We are in control of where we buy, where we sell, when we cut losers, how far we run winners - when we stay out, when we get involved. So with all those variables you can get an edge, and that's why people consistantly make money. It's not that they are just lucky, and are consistantly lucky, they're good - so yes they are gambling to an extent, but in a market full of mis pricing clueless idiots, they can pick off the weak
 
:smart:

:smart: It is gambling .... of course it is. We can't CONTROL the outcome, but like poker, there is a skill, and there are good and bad players. We are in control of where we buy, where we sell, when we cut losers, how far we run winners - when we stay out, when we get involved. So with all those variables you can get an edge, and that's why people consistantly make money. It's not that they are just lucky, and are consistantly lucky, they're good - so yes they are gambling to an extent, but in a market full of mis pricing clueless idiots, they can pick off the weak

The beauty of it is that they don't know anyone, personally. They just take their money.

I think it's a great idea. :)

Would you believe that I did not take it up until I retired? :(
 
:smart:

:smart: It is gambling .... of course it is. We can't CONTROL the outcome, but like poker, there is a skill, and there are good and bad players. We are in control of where we buy, where we sell, when we cut losers, how far we run winners - when we stay out, when we get involved. So with all those variables you can get an edge, and that's why people consistantly make money. It's not that they are just lucky, and are consistantly lucky, they're good - so yes they are gambling to an extent, but in a market full of mis pricing clueless idiots, they can pick off the weak

:LOL:

I like it!(y)
 
And they say in poker, there's more money to be made in a room full of weak hands than strong ones... thank goodness we live in markets without a shortage of these rooms :LOL:

:smart:

:smart: It is gambling .... of course it is. We can't CONTROL the outcome, but like poker, there is a skill, and there are good and bad players. We are in control of where we buy, where we sell, when we cut losers, how far we run winners - when we stay out, when we get involved. So with all those variables you can get an edge, and that's why people consistantly make money. It's not that they are just lucky, and are consistantly lucky, they're good - so yes they are gambling to an extent, but in a market full of mis pricing clueless idiots, they can pick off the weak
 
My definition of gambling was that you KNEW your expectation was <(=)1 (to make money you'd have to do better then average), like roulette, craps, etc.

So trading wouldn't be...for most traders at least.
 
Buying stocks and shares is another form of gambling. So is buying property. Buying or selling anything with the expectation of making money is gambling. Now I know that people "invest" in pension funds or property, but these all went down 30 pct last year. How is that any different from a trader or gambler losing 30 pct (and chances are, he spends more time thinking about his trade).
 
Well, POKER is "gambling" but not in the roulette sense. A player, a good player, can get the odds on his side (no certainty, just increased odds of winning). Same with trading. There is no secret formula, but there are good traders who make money day in day out, year in year out, and it's not just a mathematically improbable game of chance that they're winning. They're good. Just like the pro tennis players, pro footballers, pro poker players who end up at the final table in Vegas every year in the world series ...
 
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