How to learn to trade futures ?

Agree with the paper trading 150% to start with.
Yes, there is no pressure, and as long as you are honest with yourself and don't cheat, you will find out at no cost to yourself if you can make money (in theory) at this. Why would you want to go to the trouble and expense of setting up an account, putting hard earned money into it and 'gambling' with it before you find out if you can do 'it'.

Would you step off the side of the pool into the deep end without first learning how to swim?

Of course, as traders know; as soon as you put down your money on your first trade the emotions come into play and the paper trading comfort goes out the window.

And using that eulogy, would you step into the lions den holding a fistful of fivers and try to trade the S&P without first finding out if you can trade the cheaper price indexes.

The first preamble into futures trading should be with the lesser cost instruments. (Unless you have pots and pots to throw away.)

More importantly though is that you know your market first.
This involves doing nothing other than than sitting in front of a live screen and just watching, and watching and watching. Until you get the 'feel' of the market.

Now, in my opinion if you can't beat the sb's. you will struggle to beat the real markets. If you can beat the sb's, you will do well in the real markets.

Some will of course disagree with this and put forward the bias/ spread argument. But this only applies to short term trades. After you start going past the one day stage, the bias and spread becomes negated somewhat. (Assuming some movement of the market.) You will never make as much spreadbetting as the real thing, and given the choice I would take something like IB direct to market over spreadbetting any day. But as ever it comes down to horses for courses.

But above all else, and before you risk any money at all. Find out if you can do it in the first place. The markets do not care who's money they take. When I enter a trade I don't care if you have £50,000 left or you are down to your last tenner. If it's up for grabs I'll take it. If I get it wrong you will only get a tiny bit of my money.

Good fortune.

Options.
 
spoon102 said:
As a personal example I traded ES/NQ for three days last week. I made profits of $1,100, $935 and $662.50. I cannot remember the exact trades but I would estimate that 80%-90% of my profits came from moves of less than 4-5 points. Now if I had traded using spreadbets I would have only broke even or perhaps have made a loss. Now where is the benefit/education in that? You could abandon a perfectly good trading strategy simply because you fail to make any money with a spreadbetter.

I'm always looking at the futures.As spoon says many of his profits come from moves of less than 4/5 points.This is reflected in big Nasdaq stocks.As i trade them on a NL2 screen.Knowing this allows me to position myself to benefit from these moves.

Because NL2 gives you the agility to dance around the inside quote,when we start moving you can exit with the futures momentum as the ecn's over react to the futures move.Meaning you can place your exit order and get filled way outside the inside quote as they over react.

Its also very interesting to watch and see in general how your stock behaves to the futures and the axe in particular.This knowledge can be used during the day on other moves.
 
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X-Ray Specs,good question.

As i could be just anyone taliking about the subject.So yes i'll lay my credentials out.

I spent a week with G.scott Newsome,US trader and writer of "Soesbook, Daytrading Nasdaq using Soes ,selectnet,and ecn systems".Through US sources i found the best US Nasdaq trader with one major US brokerage and hung out with him in Las Vegas.I joined Tradescape New York and traded for three months next to their best young trader who owned the European Tradesacpe franchise.He was the best Nasdaq scalper i have ever seen in my life.winning best young trader in New York during one Year in the 90's. I have also traded with Nasdaq traders in city trading centres with Investin securities where i was an instructor and Tradescape.

Taking it further.I've appeared in the FT,BBC,Wall st journal Europe.I had a regular two weekly slot commentating on the Nasdaq and level 2 in particular on CNBC europe,where i was the first person on CNBC (worldwide) to call the bottom of the market after the Sep 11th falls.

I've talked about Level 2 Nasdaq trading at "Sharex" and "Investors chronicle expo." As well as numerous private seminars.I've lectured three times on the subject at Guilford University.Made two training cd's.I'm a Nasdaq level 2 instructor for two training companies and have taught more people the subject than anyone else in the UK.

I hope all this helps.
 
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Thanks for that NAZ.
I was planning to attend the Alan Rich 1 to 1 training day soon but any advice on NL2 training would be gratefully received.

Thanks
XRS
 
X- Ray specs,

I look forward to seeing you at one of my 1 to 1 training days.

Naz (Alan Rich)
 
x-ray specs you will find it very interesting. I have been on one myself last year.
 
OK, so i've made money from SB. I've read all the above and loads more. Chartman only does SB, NAZ only does NL2 and I know that both would agree with the following observation.
If I wanted to scalp small amounts of points, SB could turn an excellent system into a big loss maker. Many times I have made the right buying decision but where the stop loss should have been got hit straight away by the market moving 2 points but spread company moving 20 points. I now have to trade with at least 30 point stop sometimes 50! I kind of know that everytime I get stopped that if I was doing it a different way it wouldn't hurt financially as much. I do not scalp I look for longer trades at least to end of day on Dow, but even with the way I trade, I still get knocked out when I shouldn't have to!!!
I would love to change my trading strategy to Ib or NL2, but I cannot see a way past SB. I know there are alternatives out there, but I cannot see a clear path, I know I am not alone (I'm not too scared though, don't worry too much!)
 
Maybe you missed the point, Hogs, but .... IF you have the funds, switch to IB and trade ES futures.You would need to fund the acount with a minimum of $1500 US- $2500 to be safe and have some decent margin for errors. You can stiil use the dow to pick out good TA formations as I have observed watching both.The spreads are 0.25 with NO bias, dealing fees are $2.40 each way, but minimum stake is $50 a point on ES( this = $6-$7 a point on the dow). Still, as always, if you can't fund that amount of disposable cash, you're stuck with SB's. If you can fund it, AND your trading strategy and ability is sound, you will benefit.
 
With IB you need a minimum of £1,500 ($2,400) just to open an account. You also need a minimum of $2,000 in your account to initiate ANY trade (exchange rules, not IB rules) - so therefore you have a cushion of $400 (eight points on ES) before you need to add funds to your account.
 
Hogs-was in a similar position to you few years back-was not getting what I needed from SB-they just seemed to hold all the cards-not taking bets when market was moving quickly or stops getting blown out way beyond where I wanted to get out.As someone mentioned in an earlier post these guys are Looking to take bets and are therefore Bookies who definitely have a vested interest in you losing.I know some people do very well with SB ,personally I couldn't make it work for me.
I switched to trading Commodities and Futures in US,most companies will open accounts with $5,000 (some less.)I find that particularly the less volatile markets a good place to start,Soft commodities like coffee etc.I am trading these on a technical basis with a very limited eye on the Fundamnetals and news such as Weather etc.(There are some pretty good free newsletters that give good end of day round ups-try www.ino.com ).You can also trade smaller margined commodities on the Mid am markets to get you started.
As long as you apply good risk management principles etc to these futures then they are not IMO any more risky than spread bets (personally I think they are less so) or trading stccks.
The Index futures are a different game and take a bit more capital and watching especially on a day trader basis (my opinion only).
 
Been there, done it a few years back.

Jea has a very good following,if youre live in his trading room you can get used to his calls.Stocks like Ciena were a lot higher then.Certain stocks like these were daytraders favourites.So his Ciena calls would get enough traders in to move the stock.Where i traded some of us became REALY good at scalping Ciena and we could anticipate his Ciena calls selling out to the wave of buying that would come when he mentioned to get in.

Remember level 2 scalpers can be so quick to see something and execute,so when he sees it so do we.It then takes time for him to call it and the listeners to get in,by that time we're selling to them.
 
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There are lots of on line trading rooms out there for budding Nasdaq traders to use.A reasonable understanding of level 2 is advisable.

I think they create a healthy trading environment and let someone feel part of a live trading community.

I rmember one that had certain rules for getting into a stock.They would call a set up and say wait for the entry point (based on the charts).

The best play for outsider scalpers was if it was a smaller stock.You knew the majority of orders would come through island at a certain level so you hid your scalping exit order just infront of their entry price and bingo you were almost certain of your exit.

Another well known play was the CNBC play.After the break we'll be talking to xyz, CEO of abc company.Well the CEO isnt going to run down his company.He is going on there to say how excited he is about something they're about to do and loads of middle america people are going to hear this and get straight on and buy the stock.

So what many scalpers did was to buy the stock immediately they heard xyz CEO was coming on and sell as soon as middle america liked his story and started buying through their on line brokers.

For plays like this you need the quickness of a Nasdaq level 2 direct access screen.There are still loads of plays like this still around.
 
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There is an intermediate between brokers and spread dealers which is enetspeculation. But I'm not sure of their reliability: I heard about some problems of errors on account. But it's the same for IB also so judge by yourself. They even offer commodities (IB don't).

Helenqu said:



One big joy for me in moving to futures was to suddenly be able to trade what I saw in the charts, not trying to anticipate and play the bias all the time as I had had to do with SBs.

I also think your point re style of trading is very important. I was trying to very short term trade SBs as I now do futures. The two don't go together at all, with SBs you need a longer term strategy (well longer than the few mins that I am instinctively comfortable with anyway :)


Horses for courses.
 
Workspace Setup

Posting my workspace for how I trade ES (thanks to Mark aka FTSE Beater).
 

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OK Spoon, get it into Pain shop Pro/Paint and crop to size,enlarge,chech pixel size then post as several images as separate "replies".
 
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