nunrgguy
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Big players buy into resistance, sell into support and use a 10 pip stop
Edited it so I don't look more of a t1t than I am
Last edited:
Big players buy into resistance, sell into support and use a 10 pip stop
Edited it so I don't look more of a t1t than I am
wackypete2
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Pipsaholic said:
nunrgguy said:
OK! Question answered! The humor can continue now!
Peter
they have to sell or buy in small pieces... creating trends... they can't trade a single order to sell billions... because the order would be huge and the intention seen by the other big players. The war is to fool everybody else... but.. since all use computers now.. it is very difficult to fool the other big players...
DionysusToast
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Look - this really depends what you mean.
Fidelity are big players.
Getco are big players.
Goldman are big players.
They aren't playing the same game though (well, you could obviously argue that Goldman does everything).
If you want to know who's likely to be impacting your trades, then perhaps more info on what trading you plan to do.
If you plan to day trade the 6E, it's probably pointless worrying about how mutual funds select equities & ensure their bonuses are healthy at the end of the year.
Fidelity are big players.
Getco are big players.
Goldman are big players.
They aren't playing the same game though (well, you could obviously argue that Goldman does everything).
If you want to know who's likely to be impacting your trades, then perhaps more info on what trading you plan to do.
If you plan to day trade the 6E, it's probably pointless worrying about how mutual funds select equities & ensure their bonuses are healthy at the end of the year.
trader_dante
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Many of the ones I know spot patterns.
Just not the patterns everyone is trained to spot.
hoodoo man
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I see you don't post here very often. I remember your last comment that I was a few years too late for some of the more interesting discussions.
Your comment isn't saying much. What do you mean by "patterns". Most would think visual patterns on a chart, but clearly this has nothing to do with how big players trade.
Do you mean patterns in something else?
trader_dante
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I am talking about repeated patterns in the way that price moves and behaves.
This can be seen in a chart but it has nothing to do with common chart patterns.
Like how gold has gone up at the 3pm for the last few days?
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scose-no-doubt
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A big chunk of institutional trading effectively involves outsourcing capital to hedge funds.
Allocation of capital to managers involves, for example, principal component analysis of fixed income managers' returns. This enables the big institutional investor to work out whether the underlying strategy is based on parallel moves in the yield curve, changes in the slope or something more elaborate. PCA isolates these factors.
A fund-of-fund will often look for a manager with uncorrelated returns to everyone else, since that enables a reduction of portfolio risk without compromising income.
Allocation of capital to managers involves, for example, principal component analysis of fixed income managers' returns. This enables the big institutional investor to work out whether the underlying strategy is based on parallel moves in the yield curve, changes in the slope or something more elaborate. PCA isolates these factors.
A fund-of-fund will often look for a manager with uncorrelated returns to everyone else, since that enables a reduction of portfolio risk without compromising income.
trader_dante
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;-)
Michael Brown
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The New Market Wizards is best as it covers electronic trading so more up to date.
vaughanv
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I think the original poster was asking for nitty-gritty details.
I used to work on trading floors as IT support in most of the big banks in The City. I overhead and learnt a lot.
I think it necessary to point out that someone sitting at home trading versus a trader sitting on a trading floor are very different creatures. The latter has many more constraints to adhere to whilst having a few advantages.
In all the investment banks where I worked (learnt) and when I was there, there were 3 types of trader: regular, proprietary and super.
A floor was typically (+/-) 90% regular, 9% prop, and usually 1 super trader.
The regulars had a manager who would oversee their tasks and activities. They also had very clear rules which, if disregarded, could lead to their dismissal. The most important rules was not being allowed to hold positions overnight. They each had a stake or float provided by the bank. The traders experience, market assignment determined the size of this amount of money that they had to "play" with. A junior regular would be given 100k, a single instrument or market to trade and some client orders to fill. A typical regular trader would have a cool million every day.
Limits were imposed as to how much could be lost in 1 day. 3 losing days in a row usually meant being sent home for the remainder of the 3rd day. More humiliatingly they would become the division's teaboy or gopher until the manager decided otherwise, which was usually for a day. These are pretty egotistical people and public ridicule works a treat at teaching them to keep losses small and to play by the rules.
A regular trader would also be expected to execute orders sent in by clients of the bank. I'm talking unit trusts and pension funds here. Their buy or sell orders would have a massive impact on an instrument's behaviour over the course of a day or week, depending on its size.
Learning to identify when big players are getting in or out of a position is vital to succeeding in the markets. (OK, let the debate rage...)
The regular traders are the bread and butter of the operation. It's the prop traders that produce the eye-catching figures people see in the media.
Once a regular trader had proven their worth they were promoted to proprietary trader. They proved their worth by trading various markets successfully. Once promoted (which took 3 - 5 years), they were free to trade what and as they pleased, usually with a stake of several million. Rule number 1 was usually suggested but regularly ignored.
A typical proprietary trader would make 10 or 100's of millions for his employer. He would then get ideas of his own and branch out to do his own thing. Wouldn't you? After a few years of sizeable bonuses he would have enough for a stake of his own. Greatness and fortune beckoned. What almost always ensued? Within a year the prop trader would have blown up and be asking around The City for a job. (Why this happens might be a rambling post of mine in the future.)
If a prop trader ignored the aforementioned allure and stayed with his bank, with time he would become the seasoned veteran on the floor - the supertrader. He would be offered positions of management along the way as a senior prop trader, which many would accept. These guys would then be the managers of the regular traders and prop traders, whilst occasionally keeping their hand in the market. Some supertraders would choose to remain in the trading realm, but would help out with training.
OK, so now I've outlined the creatures that make up a trading floor. I must stress that each type had specific constraints imposed by their bank. There were some cultural specific traits evident to me too. E.g. a Japanese bank I worked at introduced me to candlestick charting. The American banks wouldn't allow going long on equities below their 200 day ema.
Now, different traders had to comply with different rules. What indicators could and do they use?
Timeframes first:
Regular = intraday (they have to close out at the end of every day remember)
Prop = intraday and daily (they would be allowed to hold overnight)
Super = anything
Indicators have to be in keeping with the timeframe:
Regular = ma's, oscillators and s/r
Prop = some of the above and always something exotic that works for them
Super = a real mixed bag depending on the market, timeframe and objective.
The above are somewhat broad brush strokes. I became friendly with a prop trader who only used 3 indicators. I spent time with a supertrader who only used price action. I've found those to be extremes compared to the norm, but both were very successful traders.
You sitting at home doing as you please versus you sitting in a strict, regimented trading floor environment would lead to different results, don't you think?
Simply knowing what indicators one or more traders following what instrument you might be looking at will not lead to long-term success. Their boss peering over their shoulder will make them accept a loss. What will make you accept a loss?
I used to work on trading floors as IT support in most of the big banks in The City. I overhead and learnt a lot.
I think it necessary to point out that someone sitting at home trading versus a trader sitting on a trading floor are very different creatures. The latter has many more constraints to adhere to whilst having a few advantages.
In all the investment banks where I worked (learnt) and when I was there, there were 3 types of trader: regular, proprietary and super.
A floor was typically (+/-) 90% regular, 9% prop, and usually 1 super trader.
The regulars had a manager who would oversee their tasks and activities. They also had very clear rules which, if disregarded, could lead to their dismissal. The most important rules was not being allowed to hold positions overnight. They each had a stake or float provided by the bank. The traders experience, market assignment determined the size of this amount of money that they had to "play" with. A junior regular would be given 100k, a single instrument or market to trade and some client orders to fill. A typical regular trader would have a cool million every day.
Limits were imposed as to how much could be lost in 1 day. 3 losing days in a row usually meant being sent home for the remainder of the 3rd day. More humiliatingly they would become the division's teaboy or gopher until the manager decided otherwise, which was usually for a day. These are pretty egotistical people and public ridicule works a treat at teaching them to keep losses small and to play by the rules.
A regular trader would also be expected to execute orders sent in by clients of the bank. I'm talking unit trusts and pension funds here. Their buy or sell orders would have a massive impact on an instrument's behaviour over the course of a day or week, depending on its size.
Learning to identify when big players are getting in or out of a position is vital to succeeding in the markets. (OK, let the debate rage...)
The regular traders are the bread and butter of the operation. It's the prop traders that produce the eye-catching figures people see in the media.
Once a regular trader had proven their worth they were promoted to proprietary trader. They proved their worth by trading various markets successfully. Once promoted (which took 3 - 5 years), they were free to trade what and as they pleased, usually with a stake of several million. Rule number 1 was usually suggested but regularly ignored.
A typical proprietary trader would make 10 or 100's of millions for his employer. He would then get ideas of his own and branch out to do his own thing. Wouldn't you? After a few years of sizeable bonuses he would have enough for a stake of his own. Greatness and fortune beckoned. What almost always ensued? Within a year the prop trader would have blown up and be asking around The City for a job. (Why this happens might be a rambling post of mine in the future.)
If a prop trader ignored the aforementioned allure and stayed with his bank, with time he would become the seasoned veteran on the floor - the supertrader. He would be offered positions of management along the way as a senior prop trader, which many would accept. These guys would then be the managers of the regular traders and prop traders, whilst occasionally keeping their hand in the market. Some supertraders would choose to remain in the trading realm, but would help out with training.
OK, so now I've outlined the creatures that make up a trading floor. I must stress that each type had specific constraints imposed by their bank. There were some cultural specific traits evident to me too. E.g. a Japanese bank I worked at introduced me to candlestick charting. The American banks wouldn't allow going long on equities below their 200 day ema.
Now, different traders had to comply with different rules. What indicators could and do they use?
Timeframes first:
Regular = intraday (they have to close out at the end of every day remember)
Prop = intraday and daily (they would be allowed to hold overnight)
Super = anything
Indicators have to be in keeping with the timeframe:
Regular = ma's, oscillators and s/r
Prop = some of the above and always something exotic that works for them
Super = a real mixed bag depending on the market, timeframe and objective.
The above are somewhat broad brush strokes. I became friendly with a prop trader who only used 3 indicators. I spent time with a supertrader who only used price action. I've found those to be extremes compared to the norm, but both were very successful traders.
You sitting at home doing as you please versus you sitting in a strict, regimented trading floor environment would lead to different results, don't you think?
Simply knowing what indicators one or more traders following what instrument you might be looking at will not lead to long-term success. Their boss peering over their shoulder will make them accept a loss. What will make you accept a loss?
DashRiprock
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way cool. more pls.
Pat494
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When you have a spare few minutes just consider what you would do with a billion plus.
And that's probably what they do.
People like Warren Buffet employ top class youngsters to look for opportunities to invest in. Even socialist Tony Blair has his top Oxbridge ladies and is raking in the millions faster than a dredger can shift mud.
Some have their "insider" contacts and play an octupus game with tentacles reaching into every space that knows interesting things. Paying for 1st class info.
Mostly they probably don't worry too much about moving averages etc. that's for crumbs that fall like snow and are there to keep the little guys interested.
Some like the product so much they buy the company.
or closet gays that buy a football club
And that's probably what they do.
People like Warren Buffet employ top class youngsters to look for opportunities to invest in. Even socialist Tony Blair has his top Oxbridge ladies and is raking in the millions faster than a dredger can shift mud.
Some have their "insider" contacts and play an octupus game with tentacles reaching into every space that knows interesting things. Paying for 1st class info.
Mostly they probably don't worry too much about moving averages etc. that's for crumbs that fall like snow and are there to keep the little guys interested.
Some like the product so much they buy the company.
or closet gays that buy a football club
wackypete2
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They usually have to bend over a bit to reach they keyboard. If they're over 7' tall they use a barstool to avoid getting their knees in the way.
Peter
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