Good move, John :)

Good_bush_Bad_Bush.ashx

.
 
yacarob1 said:
Markus

You appear to be assuming that Russia will behave in a rational manner.

Humans have frailties, one of which is to act irrationally.

Hitler and George Bush are good examples of people who behaved in an irrational manner.

Who is to say that Putin and his fellow gangsters are not crazed megalomaniacs who are hell bent on confrontation regardless of the consequences.

I think Split is right to be concerned and the worst case scenario should never be discarded on the grounds that it would require irrational behaviour.
Click to expand...


Yacarob, I totally agree with what you say, but my take is that should some crazy take over in Russia, there is still nothing they can realistically achieve vs us, as we are so huge and powerful and well armed.

The USA couldn't overcome third world countries with third world ragtag armies in Vietnam, Afghanistan or Iraq, just like the Soviets couldn't take over Afghanistan either, so there is absolutely no way in the world that WE are at risk from anybody.

I honestly think that should some crazy surface and make it to the top with the impossible objective of taking over the EU that the KGB's successor would probably assassinate him or her, or the army would stage a coup.

In Hitlers day there was far more that you could do with a military machine that had the means available back then, but in todays day and age and technologies, and, most importantly, nuclear weapons, the only result of an attack against one of the worlds major blocks would be guaranteed mutual self-destruction.
 
the only result of an attack against one of the worlds major blocks would be guaranteed mutual self-destruction.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't rule this one out either.

But I just hope you are right Markus.
 
Ahh, OK, J, I see, or actually I don't, hehe, what is that new flag then, is that some Carribean island somewhere ?

You ARE getting around, making too much money trading I think :D
 
Atilla said:
I seriously believe 9/11 was an inside job.

Split how would you feel if it can be proven that 9/11 was an elitist instigation to justify war?

You are reluctant to believe USA is bad because they helped us to beat the Nazis. However, Russia helped considerably taking on the supreme German fighting machine but you give them no credit.

How do you think you would feel if you found out USA instigated this incident?

I think you are in denial.

Your fear of the Russian is irrational imho.
Click to expand...

I don't believe that it was a complot, though. Bin Laden was on the upwave, then, and a big terrorist exploit in the US seems to me what he would plan to popularise himself to Arabs.

To think that George Bush said "I want an excuse tp have war in Iraq so that we can get control of the oil there, so we are going to have planes crash into the Twin Towers". Come on Atilla, please!

I am convinced that that was an Arab terrorist plot and it is not the first time that it has happened. They have blown up various places, including that World Trade Centre, hi-jacked aircraft, liners, murdered athletes in the Munich Olympics. That is their history over the last forty odd years

I find the complot argument unbelievable!

I don't think that Europeans want to believe how dangerous the situation is between the West and the Islamic block. I believe that we are getting closer and closer to a serious conflict but other western nations fall over themselves to scream "Complot !"

I got, somewhat sidetracked onto the Russian question. It is, probably, not as serious as the Islamic one. The Russians, also, have problems, and serious ones, with the muslims.

BSD thinks that the fear of total world annihilation will stop future conflicts.

Oh dear! Tell all the suicidal arabs that one and hear what they say! All the main terrorist attacks that they have made have always involved suicides. Do you, really, believe that they are worried about what happens to the rest of us?

Split
 
Splitlink said:
I don't believe that it was a complot, though. Bin Laden was on the upwave, then, and a big terrorist exploit in the US seems to me what he would plan to popularise himself to Arabs. Bin Laden was a strong CIA ally. Where did all the stinger missiles came from to shoot the Russian helichopters in Afghanistan?

How would you feel if the Russians now sold some weapons to the Taliban to fight off the US? Fair cop would you say? Perhaps they are already doing it? Who knows?

To think that George Bush said "I want an excuse tp have war in Iraq so that we can get control of the oil there, so we are going to have planes crash into the Twin Towers". Come on Atilla, please! Bush boy wouldn't know, don't need to know. He is simply a muppet.

This is precisely what happened. The proof is in the collapse of the the 3 buildings and the pentagon missing aircraft fiasco. Anybody who looks at it beyond the terrorists mug shots boarding the planes can see the mountain of questions and evidence of damn lies.

I'm astounded the substantial body of evidence supported by civil engineers and countless professional bodies and individuals as well as accounts of fireman on the ground as well as legal evidence of deals with insurance agents and asbestos claims - NO BODY WANTS TO INVESIGATE.

Colonel Oliver North sold weapons to Iran (who US was virtually at war with) in their efforst to release hostages. With the proceeds the money was diverted to the anti-Sandinista, socialist so called rebels, in Nicaragua. President Reagan, apparently knew nothing about this plan. However, he did have a strong support for the Conras and all their blood curling murders, rapes and torture of democratic activists including torture of their families.

Can you imagine the US selling weapons to Al-Qaida or Iran now? I can. Why not? What's changed? In fact relations with Iran a little better as they don't hold US hostages now as when weapons were being sold... By the way Iran was also fighting a war with Iraq at the time. US was in effect supplying both sides with military weapons to kill each other. Great for business. (Wonder why that Saddam ever turned on his CIA friends ??? )



I am convinced that that was an Arab terrorist plot and it is not the first time that it has happened. They have blown up various places, including that World Trade Centre, hi-jacked aircraft, liners, murdered athletes in the Munich Olympics. That is their history over the last forty odd years

True. But there was countless pieces of evidence to say a plot was being prepared. Richard A Clark, served under 3 presidents as NSA knows more about Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda than anyone else here is an extract from his book...

From "Against All Enemies"

Wolfowitz fidgeted and scowled.... "Well, I just don't understand why we are beginning by talking about this one man bin Laden."

"We are talking about a neetwork of terrorist organisations called Al-Qaeda, that happens to be led by bin Laden, and we are talking about that network because it and it alone poses an immediate and serious threata to the US," I answered...

Wolfowitz turned on me. "You give bin Laden too much credit. He could not do all these things like the 1993 attack on New York, not with-out a state sponsor. Just because FBI and CIA have failed to find the linkages does not mean they don't exist." I could hardly believe it, but Wolfowitz was actually spouting the totally discredited Laurie Mylroie theory that Iraq was behind the 1993 truck bomb at the World Trade Center, a theory that had been investigated for years and found to be totally untrue.

My point is this, for all we know the failure of the 1993 event planned ages in advance for all we know planned and executed in 2001 as 9/11.

These people have their agendas and they will persist.

I would like to know how why what where when Wolfowitz has the freaking wisdom to suspect Iraq and even in 2003 carry on banging their drums as we now know contrary to all evidence 1 no WMD or 2 connection to Al-Qaeda.

Where do the NeoCons get their information from if not plants.



I find the complot argument unbelievable!

Well yes you would. A litlle like that other guy on another thread about US pilots bombing civilians or killing innocent family's by waking them up and shooting them in the night, anything and everything they do is either mishap or some collateral damage.

BBC NEWS | World | Americas | CIA leak trial: At-a-glance I guess you find these top wise bods innocent too.

He was found guilty of four of the five counts against him and sentenced to 30 months in prison. President George W Bush later intervened to commute Libby's sentence.


Libby is the only person charged over the leak investigation
The prosecution said Libby tried to block an investigation into who revealed that the wife of a White House critic was secretly a CIA agent.

No-one was ever charged with the leak itself, but the prosecution said Libby was part of a cover-up.

How or why would the White House do something like this or feel the need to cover up?

Expendable fodder? US citizen no doubt risking his life for country but nevertheless expendable for the bigger objective.

I don't think that Europeans want to believe how dangerous the situation is between the West and the Islamic block. I believe that we are getting closer and closer to a serious conflict but other western nations fall over themselves to scream "Complot !"

Which European country is under threat from which Islamic country? I strongly disagree more with this line. Problem is you don't want to even consider truth or alternatives to your brainwashed dogma.

I don't believe David Kelly took his life either.

I don't believe our magnificient intelligence accidently took a university students report on Iraq as their intelligence gathering fact finding final report by mistake.

The whole freaking show is one big cover up from begining to end and you don't want to believe.

David Shayler the MI5 intelligence officer couldn't stomach the hypocrisy and had to leave. I've heard of other personnel who have had to leave GCHQ because they too couldn't handle the hypocrisy.

They too couldn't believe they signed up to this just like our soldiers and US marines dying for BS.


I got, somewhat sidetracked onto the Russian question. It is, probably, not as serious as the Islamic one. The Russians, also, have problems, and serious ones, with the muslims.

Pentagon has to create these enemies like the Russians, Islam and the Chineese to justify it's existence.

BSD thinks that the fear of total world annihilation will stop future conflicts. Worked so far hasn't it. The World has never had it so good for the last 60 years. Big countries fight their proxy wars using little peons.

Oh dear! Tell all the suicidal arabs that one and hear what they say! All the main terrorist attacks that they have made have always involved suicides. Do you, really, believe that they are worried about what happens to the rest of us?

Do you genuinely care what happens to the rest of them as long as you are alright jack?

Split
Click to expand...


Calling it USA bashing or a conspiracy to dismiss facts and events, I suppose is one way of dealing with luggage.

Being European I doubt you are as much impacted as our cousins in US but there is a lot of pain coming this way all inflicted by the NeoCons.


Facts on the ground are:

1. Almost 1 trillion $ollars spent on butchering 600,000 people
2. Pension crises
3. Budget deficit 7%
4. BoP defict 7%
5. Oil $100 up from $45 before the war
6. Dollar collapse
7. Banking / liquidity crises
8. Sub-prime losses
9. Low morale in the troops
10. Health funding crises
11. International reputation in tatters
12. Lost war on Iraq
13. Lost war in Afghanistan
14. Lost elections to democrats (let's hope)


Americans now have a chance to do the right thing.


America really needs Gods help and guidance more now then ever before. And I fear they will get it with McCain and Palin :-0
 
I still do not believe that such a coverup would be possible without the press having made a political issue of it within seven years.

Sorry, Atilla, I don't know why these crackpots are trying to make hay out of this tragedy.

What I do believe, from my own years in a multinational company, is your last sentence in blue in the quoted post.

No matter how much practice for a simulated accident there is, the real thing will take everyone by surprise and mistakes will happen. Some of these mistakes amount to criminal negligence. If anything happened to one of my employer's ships, the investigations were endless and the the covering up of the asses of people who had jobs and reputations to lose were. also, endless. Some of the excuses were so stupid that any other person in the same field would lnow, at once, that BS was being circulated, but it served to pacify the waters until everyone who could be fired had been fired.

That is what I believe happened with the Twin Towers. There were mistakes right through from the top echelons, right down to someone on a fire engine and the ass covering is being interpreted by investigators as signs of an inside job because, when they ask questions, no one wants to answer them.

What do you think will come out of this?

Omagh bombing: Details from phone taps 'not passed on' - Telegraph

Was it a governmental attempt to stir up more trouble in Northern Ireland? Or colossal incompetence? The interesting thing, because the event itself is history, is the ass covering that is going to take place as the story unfolds.

This goes on all the time. The size of Twin Towers makes it so terrible.

This was caused by a suicidal terrorist organisation.

Split
 
Split, how many people have your Arab terrorists killed to date ?

Not even a promille of all the people Bushs oil war in Iraq has.

Terror isn't even remotely a threat to get ones panties all wet over, more people get killed in the USA every single year from gun crimes than militant Muslims have killed in the last 100 years.

9-11 killed 2900 people...

Bush murdered anything from 100 000 to 1 mill in Iraq.

The way to deal with terror is simply treat it as the crime it is, sort of like in India, where nobody would even dream of totally losing their calm because of some idiots that blow up people once in awhile.

THAT is the way a strong, courageous, and competent nation deals with terror: treating it and dealing with it as no more than the crime it is.

And if one really wants to do sthg against terror, then the best thing is to not go create new generations of terrorists through atrocious war crimes like Iraq, or to finally remove the biggest legitimate grievances Arabs have, finally go and provide the Palestinians with a state, and stop propping up medieval dictatorships robbing their countries blind in the likes of Saudi Arabia et al.
 
Splitlink said:
I still do not believe that such a coverup would be possible without the press having made a political issue of it within seven years.

Sorry, Atilla, I don't know why these crackpots are trying to make hay out of this tragedy.

What I do believe, from my own years in a multinational company, is your last sentence in blue in the quoted post.

No matter how much practice for a simulated accident there is, the real thing will take everyone by surprise and mistakes will happen. Some of these mistakes amount to criminal negligence. If anything happened to one of my employer's ships, the investigations were endless and the the covering up of the asses of people who had jobs and reputations to lose were. also, endless. Some of the excuses were so stupid that any other person in the same field would lnow, at once, that BS was being circulated, but it served to pacify the waters until everyone who could be fired had been fired.

That is what I believe happened with the Twin Towers. There were mistakes right through from the top echelons, right down to someone on a fire engine and the ass covering is being interpreted by investigators as signs of an inside job because, when they ask questions, no one wants to answer them.

What do you think will come out of this?

Omagh bombing: Details from phone taps 'not passed on' - Telegraph

Was it a governmental attempt to stir up more trouble in Northern Ireland? Or colossal incompetence? The interesting thing, because the event itself is history, is the ass covering that is going to take place as the story unfolds.

This goes on all the time. The size of Twin Towers makes it so terrible.

This was caused by a suicidal terrorist organisation.

Split
Click to expand...


Not denying 9/11 was caused by a suicidal terrorist organisation.

The question is did they know before hand and why did they not act before.

Was this attempt no 2, based on Richards Clarke's discussions with Wolfowitz that this time they assisted with the demolotion of those buildings to justify their long desired intention and plans to take over Iraqi oil fields.

100s of unanswered questions. Not even investigated. Very sad.



Regarding Omargh bombing one interesting aspect is this quote imo.

The intercepts could also have played a crucial role in bringing the bombers to justice after the attack, but sources told Panorama that not one of the transcripts was ever disclosed to the investigating police.

Even after the event info is not disclosed.

REASON. To prevent GCHQs surveilance technique or informer being identified.

Which is more valuable. Your source or civilian lives?



With respect to 9/11 if you did know what was being planned, perhaps more importantly can you make capital out of a misfortune. Use it to your advantage?

You don't look at the facts, evidence or question imho?

I feel you have blind faith in your assumption this is so outrageous it could never be true.

I don't share your conviction in Bush NeoCons or Mr Blair / Brown our government at the time...

Thank you for your curteous reply.
 
BSD said:
9-11 killed 2900 people...

Bush murdered anything from 100 000 to 1 mill in Iraq.
Click to expand...

I keep seeing this figure being thrown around about how many people the Americans have killed in Iraq/Afganistan ( I'm not sure if you're blaming the yanks for all/any of the deaths that are happening in Pakistan at the moment )


I wonder just exactly how many deaths have been the result of Muslims killling Muslims ( after all, the biggest victims of Islam are Muslims ).

Yes, I'm sure you'll come back with something along the lines of " well none of it would've happened if the US had stayed out of Iraq " ( which I agree with BTW ), but to go as far as saying Bush has murdered upto a million people, well, I can't help feeling that there is a degree of spin going on here.

and if it is spin, then, does such spin betray an agenda ?

dd
 
DD, no spin mate, just cause and effect.

As I keep saying, no probs with the Yanks, just with the NeoCons and their puppet.
 
dd,

Have you ever heard the rather rude expression "You're farting against thunder"?

I doubt whether even the two us will be able to convince!

:LOL:

Split
 
Hey Split, you go and have a nice day in sunny Barcelona now :D:D

C U 2morrow.
 
BSD said:
DD, no spin mate, just cause and effect.

As I keep saying, no probs with the Yanks, just with the NeoCons and their puppet.
Click to expand...


BSD, an extract from paragraph six in the link you provided in This Post



" We know that the combined horror of car bombs, suicide attacks, sectarian killing and disproportionate US counter-insurgency tactics and air strikes have produced the worst humanitarian catastrophe in today's world. But the exact death toll remains a mystery."



dd
 
dick_dastardly said:
Hey Atilla, check this out, I found a couple more guys that are in on the conspiracy.

YouTube - The Third Tower: Controlled Demolition?

dd
Click to expand...


Yes I've seen this one. He is one of the contractors for the White House to clean up the area. Totally unbiased and just one guy. Also given much air time in BBC film on 9/11 consipiracy along with their masterful editing of pullling fireman out of the building and not pulling WTC7 building down... :LOL:

You can't handle the truth DD. Said with a Jack Nicholson accent... :cheesy:


If you have genuine interest why don't you consider all the other demolition & civil engineering experts on this site

911truth.org ::::: The 9/11 Truth Movement


Here are some questions for the White House to answer...


911truth.org ::::: THE TOP 40


With very interesting links.


Enjoy your hibernation ;)
 
Atilla said:
Yes I've seen this one. He is one of the contractors for the White House to clean up the area. Totally unbiased and just one guy. Also given much air time in BBC film on 9/11 consipiracy along with their masterful editing of pullling fireman out of the building and not pulling WTC7 building down... :LOL:

You can't handle the truth DD. Said with a Jack Nicholson accent... :cheesy:


If you have genuine interest why don't you consider all the other demolition & civil engineering experts on this site

911truth.org ::::: The 9/11 Truth Movement


Here are some questions for the White House to answer...


911truth.org ::::: THE TOP 40


With very interesting links.


Enjoy your hibernation ;)
Click to expand...

:LOL: How did I guess that you would not find dd's offering acceptable?
 
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