FTSE system

rtsaur said:
It would be greatly appreciated if you can provide the spreadsheets for all 0.20%, 0.15%, 0.10%, and 0.05% entry points so that we can check their accuracy.

Hi

Just alter runthenumbers (RTN) spreadsheet yourself.

Click in the first row of numerical entries in the column that says "short entry" & "long entry" - cells F4 & G4.
In the formula bar F4 shows =ROUND(E3*0.9975,0) & G4 shows =ROUND(E3*1.0025,0) @ 0.25%

For 0.15%, change these so they show F4 shows =ROUND(E3*0.9985,0) & G4 shows =ROUND(E3*1.0015,0) etc. etc.

Then drag these cells to the bottom of their respective columns to copy the updated formula into each following cell in that column.

Its that simple :) ;) .
 
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Hi everyone

I didn't realise anyone was still looking at my system (not bigging it up it's hardly advanced!) If I had known I'd be back to stick my nose in.

Answers to most common questions:

1. Getting orders on. I trade with Cantor and at around 4.30pm the next days' daily FTSE bet becomes tradable. I then enter orders for that day as soon as the official close is out. That means my orders are working for the next day from 4.45pm or so the the previous day. I can only speak anecdotally and I haven't struggled to get filled so far.

2. Performance went down during the test. So you want to ditch a good system that is proven to find a better one? Never been sure on that logic. The richest guys in the city make poor returns on good money, say 25% cut on 25% per year return on £100m, circa £6million a year. This says to me grow your pot and stick to something that works.

3. It doesn't work so well on some markets. So, don't trade those markets. Everyone knows commodities go sideways for years and break out in super cycles where stocks might oscillate more and indexes drift upwards (due to the losers being ditched and winners added each quarter). No single system will work well on everything, indexes you might ride the ups, commodities you might hold for longer and stocks you might play from the inside skinning other people.

4. Changing the close+/- fraction from 0.25%. 0.5% worked well too from what I remember and it addresses the problem of getting whipsawed and struggling to get filled. Perhaps a more reliable and tradable inferior return system would allow for bolder money management and hence make more over the term.

People get too hung up on % return when a system is a combination of win ratio, pay off of winners versus losers and streaks of winners versus losers. These will let you set your bet sizing and will have more impact on your results than if one fraction yields 1000 per year and one yields 500 points per year. If the slower return has higher ratio and pay off and shorter losing streaks you can ramp up your bet size and make more from it.

Last remark is that it is sticking to something that is working over the long term when it's not over the short term that is the tough bit. Jan from what I can recall was +150 points or something in a couple of days only to show a negative than do well then finish around +55. Mentally that is a tough month to keep pulling the trigger and having faith that if it's worked for decades chances are this Jan won't be the end of it.

Hate to sound like Ed Seykota but work on yourself and sticking to the system is more important than work on the system.

Got a different system it simply enters on three day highs and exits on three day lows. Turned £1000 into £6000 with no gearing over 16 years, doesn't sound great but works on Dax and SPX so room for diversification, as example yeterday's pull backs close out SPX and DAX but not FTSE, some people think all indexes are in step but really they aren't that closely lined up.

This means you enter on a stop above the market and when you are long enter a stop order below the market each day.

This system is long or flat only, great fun till you hit a bear market, but by then you should be rich enough to ride it out somewhere sunny and not worry about it too much!

Sorry this got so long winded.

Stephen McCreedy
 
rtsaur said:
It would be greatly appreciated if you can provide the spreadsheets for all 0.20%, 0.15%, 0.10%, and 0.05% entry points so that we can check their accuracy.

Unfortunately I dont think that 0.05% entry is at all realistic. Here's a picture of this mornings quotes from IG - the box shows that the lowest quote you could have got between 8:00 and 8:10 is 6374 - that's 0.44% above yesterdays close.
 

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Hold on. Am I missing something obvious here or is the spreadsheet seriously flawed ?
From the spreadsheet, how have u determined whether u go long or short on a day when the high is above your buy trigger and also the low is below your sell trigger? With historic ohlc data u can't possibly tell with 100% certainty whether the high or low was hit first. Of course you can take a guess by looking at the closing price but that's not enough.
 
JTrader said:
Hi

Just alter runthenumbers (RTN) spreadsheet yourself.

Click in the first row of numerical entries in the column that says "short entry" & "long entry" - cells F4 & G4.
In the formula bar F4 shows =ROUND(E3*0.9975,0) & G4 shows =ROUND(E3*1.0025,0) @ 0.25%

For 0.15%, change these so they show F4 shows =ROUND(E3*0.9985,0) & G4 shows =ROUND(E3*1.0015,0) etc. etc.

Then drag these cells to the bottom of their respective columns to copy the updated formula into each following cell in that column.

Its that simple :) ;) .


JTrader,

Thanks, you are a great teacher. I should spend some time learning how to properly use the Microsoft Excel.

However, I think we should also check the performances of 0.30%, 0.35%, 0.40%, 0.45%, and 0.5% cases and then try to derive the performance curve.
 
Doesn't matter one bit.

If both get hit you lose the maximum loss ie the distance between the two points which ought to be set to be a fixed % of your acc. ie max loss =5% of equity etc.

If you go long and then are stopped when it falls or go short then get stopped when it rises it doesn't matter.

If the low is lower than the sell stop and the high is higher than the buy stop you lose your maximum loss.

For most of Jan from what I remember max loss was around 31 points with a .25% fraction.

In answer to post before this one.

Today was a little freaky as market opened way above last night close.

The way I trade last night at 4.45pm when the market close was hit I have my new parameters.

I then open up Friday's bet and place stop orders to enter at the right levels.

Overnight or first thing this morning or whatever I am in the market at the price I wanted.

Of course if I left it till 8am this morning I'd never get a fill at the level the spread sheet thinks I will.

Stephen McCreedy
 
smccreedy said:
..................

Today was a little freaky as market opened way above last night close.

The way I trade last night at 4.45pm when the market close was hit I have my new parameters.

I then open up Friday's bet and place stop orders to enter at the right levels.

Overnight or first thing this morning or whatever I am in the market at the price I wanted.

Of course if I left it till 8am this morning I'd never get a fill at the level the spread sheet thinks I will.

Stephen McCreedy

Hi SM

does this mean that you are able to place orders for the next day on the previous evening, knowing that the trades will not be opened/executed until after the following open?
Or once you place your trade orders for Monday at 1700 say today, could you then be entered into the market at 1710 today (i.e. overnight)?

Thanks.
 
smccreedy said:
Doesn't matter one bit.

If both get hit you lose the maximum loss ie the distance between the two points which ought to be set to be a fixed % of your acc. ie max loss =5% of equity etc.

If you go long and then are stopped when it falls or go short then get stopped when it rises it doesn't matter.

If the low is lower than the sell stop and the high is higher than the buy stop you lose your maximum loss.

For most of Jan from what I remember max loss was around 31 points with a .25% fraction.

In answer to post before this one.

Today was a little freaky as market opened way above last night close.

The way I trade last night at 4.45pm when the market close was hit I have my new parameters.

I then open up Friday's bet and place stop orders to enter at the right levels.

Overnight or first thing this morning or whatever I am in the market at the price I wanted.

Of course if I left it till 8am this morning I'd never get a fill at the level the spread sheet thinks I will.

Stephen McCreedy

Ok, I should hv looked at ur formulas first to see that u had factored in for a double hit scenario
:eek:
 
In your example, yes, last night the FTSE was closing around 6345 so today's buy stop would be 6361. Once I knew this I could enter an order for today's market at this level. If today's market traded at that level at any time between my entry last night and when it closes at 4.30pm tonight I'd be entered at that price. I guess it would have been entered early this morning as when I came in the daily FTSE was 6370/6372 so I'd already be in.

At the time the buy stop was around 16 points above the market so plenty of time to get it on.

With CMC it was even easier as the FTSE 100 CFD trades 24 hour and you could wait for the official close, get your new order levels and enter then. The spread was narrower and they'd take orders close to the market than Cantor do.

Problem with CMC is you have to be disciplined to exit on the close where as the Cantor Daily FTSE bet is settled for you exactly at the closing price.

You could argue a good trader could improve this system with CMC as they might not close if the market was moving higher and the US looked strong. This could lead to a system to where you only exit if the stop is reached and the stop would be moved each night, ie you carried overnight trades.

Problem with this system is it can't be tested on OHLC data and as such would want to experiment in a small small way to see if discretion to hold winners overnight would improve performance overall.

Stephen McCreedy
 
smccreedy said:
In your example, yes, last night the FTSE was closing around 6345 so today's buy stop would be 6361. Once I knew this I could enter an order for today's market at this level. If today's market traded at that level at any time between my entry last night and when it closes at 4.30pm tonight I'd be entered at that price. I guess it would have been entered early this morning as when I came in the daily FTSE was 6370/6372 so I'd already be in.

At the time the buy stop was around 16 points above the market so plenty of time to get it on.

With CMC it was even easier as the FTSE 100 CFD trades 24 hour and you could wait for the official close, get your new order levels and enter then. The spread was narrower and they'd take orders close to the market than Cantor do.

Problem with CMC is you have to be disciplined to exit on the close where as the Cantor Daily FTSE bet is settled for you exactly at the closing price.

You could argue a good trader could improve this system with CMC as they might not close if the market was moving higher and the US looked strong. This could lead to a system to where you only exit if the stop is reached and the stop would be moved each night, ie you carried overnight trades.

Problem with this system is it can't be tested on OHLC data and as such would want to experiment in a small small way to see if discretion to hold winners overnight would improve performance overall.

Stephen McCreedy

Hi SM

isn't there a danger in being entered into the market tonight, based on levels to be hit on Monday, in that your long entry for example, may be hit tonight. However, on Monday, the market never hits your long entry, but hits your short entry instead.
This means that you make a loss, whereas if you'd traded based on entering the market first thing on monday morning, you'd never have gone long, but would have gone short and possibly made a profit.

Another possibility would be that you are entered into the market tonight, and before Mondays open, your stop-loss is hit - meaning that your daily cash FTSE bet never made it into the (next trading) day.

If one was to reduce the 0.25% to 0.2% or less, the issue of overnight fills and stop-losses would become even more of an issue.
Has these issues caused you any problems yet at 0.25%?

Thanks again.

:confused: :rolleyes:
 
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Yes of course and that's why without good intraday futures data you can't fully assess all of these decisions.

Maybe the ones you get in and wish you hadn't outweigh the ones you can't and wish you had, maybe it's the other way round.

Today you'd be in from trading the evening before and be well up when waiting till this morning wouldn't have worked. The next time you might get a fill and and the market reverses.

In truth I think the only way to combat this is to diversify ie if you had a directional Dow system (I know this doesn't do too well on it) then you'd make on your shorts from that to outweigh your overnight FTSE long.

Really trading it for real and inventing new rules to deal with these situations is the only way to test it and come up with concrete frame work.

Stephen McCreedy
 
smccreedy said:
Yes of course and that's why without good intraday futures data you can't fully assess all of these decisions.

Maybe the ones you get in and wish you hadn't outweigh the ones you can't and wish you had, maybe it's the other way round.

Today you'd be in from trading the evening before and be well up when waiting till this morning wouldn't have worked. The next time you might get a fill and and the market reverses.

In truth I think the only way to combat this is to diversify ie if you had a directional Dow system (I know this doesn't do too well on it) then you'd make on your shorts from that to outweigh your overnight FTSE long.

Really trading it for real and inventing new rules to deal with these situations is the only way to test it and come up with concrete frame work.

Stephen McCreedy

You should also factor in widened spreads for overnight trades. 6 points for IG. I'm not sure what CS is - but they only quote from 7am to 9:15pm.

As JTrader said - if you start running positions overnight with a limit open distance of 15 points or less you're gonna hit those limits overnight pretty regularly - and then quite possibly hit the opposite limit when the market opens.
 
My lasting concern is that on the days when todays open is beyond a trade entry level requiring an immediate trade entry at 0800, and on the days when todays cash market open is very close to a trade entry level, is that you may struggle to trade/get filled at or very close to the open of the cash market price, due to the fact that the SB co's base their quotes on the futures price.

Possibilities
1. We have a long entry signal at 6500, the cash market opens at 08:00 at 6501, we are supposed to enter long immediately, but the SB is quoting 6504-06 = a disadvantageous price.
2. We have a long entry signal at 6500, the cash market opens at 08:00 at 6501, we are supposed to enter long immediately, but the SB is quoting 6497-99 = an advantafeous price.

However, I suspect that the futures price (the price that SB co's price base their cash market quotes on) will lead to disadvantageous quotes, more often than advantageous quotes, on the basis that the futures market is supposed to lead the cash.
Therefore, if the cash market opens at 6501 at 0800, and the futures market is in the region of 6505 at 0800, as i understand it, the cash market then usually catches up with the futures market, rather than the futures market falling back down to the level of the cash market?

As a result, although our spreadsheet results based on cash market OHLC prices looks impressive, if we'd been trying to trade each day, we would have really struggled to attain these results in reality if trading for real due to the difficulty in getting filled at or near the open price, on the days when the system requires a trade entry at or very soon after 0800?

Perhaps its a 50/50 situation, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other etc. and the futures price comes back up/down to meet the cash price, just as often as the cash price goes up/down to meet the futures price at the 0800 LSE and LIFFE open times?
 
Hi, i've been following this thread with interest and have a few thoughts/questions:

1) It seems we can not take the results in the spreadsheets at face value. They are what we could expect in an ideal world, not when we have to contend with the restrictions that SB companies impose.

2) It seems we would need to use daily futures data or historical data from a SB company so we can see what prices we could indeed have got filled at. Is such a thing available?

3) Reducing the entry points from 0.25%, whilst theoretically beneficial, seems infeasible given the above problems.

4) Basic question - given that we would be trading the daily cash FTSE100, and the SBs base their price on the futures, at what stage do the two prices actually coincide? I assume they must be equal at the close? JTtrader, you say they coincide 10 mins after the open? If so, could we not take that value as our 'previous days close price' and work out the entry criteria from that point. i.e. place the trade at approx. 8.10 every day?
 
logit said:
4) Basic question - given that we would be trading the daily cash FTSE100, and the SBs base their price on the futures, at what stage do the two prices actually coincide? I assume they must be equal at the close? JTtrader, you say they coincide 10 mins after the open? If so, could we not take that value as our 'previous days close price' and work out the entry criteria from that point. i.e. place the trade at approx. 8.10 every day?

That is possible, but would need some quick calculations.
It would however, ensure that we are able to bypass the overnight, and early open hussle, bussle, confusion, panic etc.
However, who can say whether using this random intraday price to calculate entry prices, would backtest favourably?
It would also be very difficult to backtest, as you'd need to collect 2000+ data points for 08:10.

Its also worth remembering that price is likely to cross above and below the entry levels several times per day.
Therefore, worst case scenario, will waiting an extra to minutes until 0810 to place your orders until the SB quotes have settled down, really hurt the system anyway?

The opening cash price is likely to be within the entry levels anyway, according to the spreadsheet.

And perhaps the entries are not triggered until considerably later than 0810 - on average. Therefore one might expect the majority of trading days to be problem/issue free.

These matters do become more of an issue when decreasing from 0.25% calculations towards 0.05% etc.

0.15% might be the happiest medium to use.

Thanks.
 
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Having thought about it, I've decided that trading this system, on the days when todays open is beyond the long or short trigger level, i would not want to enter immediately at the open price.

I would place my orders at around 0810 in the morning, once the open had begun to settle down.

I would do this because I would want to minimise losses and hopefully maximise profits on at least a few days.
This is based on the assumption that between 0810 and the close, price may cross back and forth over the calculated entry levels on a few occasions.
Lets say the FTSE closed at 6000. using 0.10% to calculate the long and short entries, the long entry for the next day is at 6006, the short entry is at 5994.
If the FTSE opens at 6030, and i entered at this open price, then starts falling back to the 5994 stop-loss, I have lost 36 points.
If I place an order to enter at 6006, and price comes back to enter me into the market, then hits the 5994 stop-loss, i have only lost 12 points.
I may not get entered at all, sticking to the calculated levels.
However, if I do enter at 6006, and the market then heads back up to 6030 at the close, I have made 22 to 24 points. If I had entered at the 6030 open, i have made -2 to 0 points.

As a result these few possible outcomes are -
i) The open was beyond one of the entry triggers, I do not get a chance to enter at the calculated price, and I either miss out on A) making a profit, or B) making a loss. I do not trade on that day.
ii) After opening beyond one of the calculated entry levels, the market comes back to that level, I am entered into the market. The outcome of this is that I either C) make a bigger profit or D) make a smaller loss, than I would have if I had entered immediately at the open.

I would use Use the 2nd-3rd most historically profitable calculated levels on the spreadsheet 0.10% or 0.15%, rather than 0.25% 0.125% etc.
However, in using 0.1% - 0.15% it is more likely that I will not get entered into trades than it would be if I used the 0.25% calculation.

Doing it this way, it may be possible to produce better results in forward testing than were on the spreadsheet.
However, there will be some days (I don’t know how frequent) when your orders do not get filled when the market opens beyond your calculated levels, and continues in that direction, without coming back to your entry level to fill your order/s – but at least you haven’t lost anything on such days!

The only way to find out how this plan would work out, would be to forward test it with real money. If things go well then fine.
The only problem I can see is not getting filled on some days if the market does not return to the trade entry level, having opened beyond it, or having moved beyond it between 0800-0810.
If the SB price and the live cash price were in line before 0810, I could place my orders before 0810..

Because the results are as good on the FTSE100 & Dax, I would plan to run this strategy on both, starting with the FTSE and introducing the Dax if things went well on the FTSE for a month or so. Adding more capital to get the Dax half of my trading plan off the ground. Thus hopefully, achieving my profit objectives in less time, trading 2 markets instead of 1.
Dax orders probably need to be entered an hour earlier than FTSE though, as DAX cash market opens at 07:00 UK time.


Ideally, i would like to trade with WS because they enable you to enter based on the actual market price rather than their quote. Unfortunately the WS order system is not sophisticated enough to allow you to place your orders in the morning and forget about it for the rest of the day. If they introduce If Done and OCO orders, this will be possible.

I see that capital spreads offer OCO and If Done orders, but they discontinued their daily bet. Therefore if you want to exit a trade at 1630 UK time, you have to do so manually.

CMC offer OCO orders, but don't seem to offer If done functionality. Therefore you can enter a trade when the long or short entry is hit, and the other order is cancelled, but you can't attach a stop-loss to that order (if done) all in one go. You'd have to do this seperately after being filled, meaning that you could not forget about it for the day, as you'd have to observe it and update orders intraday.

Thanks.
 
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This system seems to be similar to an Opening Range Breakout strategy. It is not possible to make a profit spread betting this strategy. If you are showing a profit in your back test then you have done something wrong.
 
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Hey everyone.

The point that is frustrating me now is that people talk so much about getting a fill and seem to ignore what I was telling them about how I made it work personally for me.

I traded for real for one month and didn't struggle once. I know a month isn't a long time in the scheme of things but would give an idea of problems.

I place my entry orders around 4.45pm on the following days' market when I have the official close for today.

The orders with the .25% were around 16 points above or below the close of the day and usually was able to get them on, sometimes had to wait a couple of hours for the US to pull back/rally etc to get my orders on.

This will lead to 'ah what if the order get's hit and then works against you overnight' type comment.

In my limited experience doing this for real it didn't matter one jot. Truth is most of trades cancel each other out with small wins or losses and then one or two big wins a week or month make your profit. These big wins come when you can get your orders on overnight but couldn't the following morning, take Friday as an example.

I have posted a new system I have tried that basically says 'each day set a buy stop and sell stop order at the high/low of the last three days. If the FTSE is above it's 200ema you go long or flat, if below you go short or flat.

It seems around 500 points per year has been the average.

Dont' all jump on my back and say 'that's not great' with sensible money management that can generate great returns as the draw down isn't too high with this.

Also for me these systems are there to spread risk, ie if you trade FX maybe add this to your repertoire as it doesn't take too long and is only very loosely correlated to the market you are trading.

Feedback more than welcome, and please pull sheet apart for errors.
 

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smccreedy said:
Hey everyone.

The point that is frustrating me now is that people talk so much about getting a fill and seem to ignore what I was telling them about how I made it work personally for me.

I traded for real for one month and didn't struggle once. I know a month isn't a long time in the scheme of things but would give an idea of problems.

I place my entry orders around 4.45pm on the following days' market when I have the official close for today.

The orders with the .25% were around 16 points above or below the close of the day and usually was able to get them on, sometimes had to wait a couple of hours for the US to pull back/rally etc to get my orders on.

This will lead to 'ah what if the order get's hit and then works against you overnight' type comment.

In my limited experience doing this for real it didn't matter one jot. Truth is most of trades cancel each other out with small wins or losses and then one or two big wins a week or month make your profit. These big wins come when you can get your orders on overnight but couldn't the following morning, take Friday as an example.

I have posted a new system I have tried that basically says 'each day set a buy stop and sell stop order at the high/low of the last three days. If the FTSE is above it's 200ema you go long or flat, if below you go short or flat.

It seems around 500 points per year has been the average.

Dont' all jump on my back and say 'that's not great' with sensible money management that can generate great returns as the draw down isn't too high with this.

Also for me these systems are there to spread risk, ie if you trade FX maybe add this to your repertoire as it doesn't take too long and is only very loosely correlated to the market you are trading.

Feedback more than welcome, and please pull sheet apart for errors.

Would have been helpful if you put headings above your columns
 
In the mean time, if you have a chance, can you explain 1 more time for the dummies. How have you backtested overnight trades? I assume the details in the spreadsheet are free from yahoo finance?
 
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