ESMA & Trading Outside of the EU

I am not so sure that opening an account with a broker outside is a loophole. I wonder if the FCA and ESMA are thinking: good riddance, they are not with us anymore.

But if you can stomach the higher margin rates, then there are obvious advantages to staying, absolutely.
 
Having considered all possibilities I've decided to keep my business within the UK, for now anyway. I'll keep a closer eye on my margin and lower my leverage.
Some great posts and research on here. Good luck to all. And remember.... Treat the market like a Casino and it will deal with you like a Gambler.
 
Having considered all possibilities I've decided to keep my business within the UK, for now anyway. I'll keep a closer eye on my margin and lower my leverage.
Some great posts and research on here. Good luck to all. And remember.... Treat the market like a Casino and it will deal with you like a Gambler.
 
Thanks to all for your posting your comments and information on thise frustrating ESMA situation and trying to find ways to be able to still be able to trade at the present or prior rates that we have been used to.... I still cannot believe how this ESMA thing has been allowed to effect private non pro traders like most of us on here I would think..

If its to just get rid of small traders as overall these big companies may make most profit just from the big or rich PRO boys.... then you would still think there should be an opportunity from other companies who would still be happy and offer a similar as present service to allow the small traders to trade at present rates before margin rates get increased 10 times or more.

In ref to finding other companies outside the UK.... yes you can find some for certain things like CFDs... BUT as far as Spread betting goes... I am led to believe that Spread betting is a UK Only option.. Which I am very sorry to say.. as I just read about the option to use IGs OZ office... and contacted IG to discuss it with them thinking that I could open a IG OZ account and would would still be able to trade with IG to continue to spread bet... thinking they were offering their smaller clients a way around it ... BUT as I said... unfortunately it does not include their spread betting..

BUT I suppose at least present IG clients who do or have traded CFDs with them.. can at least remain to still trade with them at the same or similar rates...

I still wonder what may happen if we continue to come out of the EU... in ref to Brexit... are they likely to alter the margins rates back as they were say within 12 months time...

or are these Spread bet companies happy to remain PRO only for the higher (10 X) rates...

Why the USA or any other Country is unable to offer similar services as spread betting is beyond me..

London Capital Group I believe includes spread betting on indices like FTSE and Wall ST... and will allow you to trade with them at lower stakes but the ammount and profits will be 10 times lower after the ESMA changes take place.... but they are only offering it for futures only like trading... they dont offer options like puts or calls..

IG index I must admitt .... overall were offering one of the cheapest ways to trade on the planet... when you could trade daily call and put options on the likes of Wall Street as low as 3 to 5 GBPs which at one time you could had bought 100 points out of the money and if the dow moved 200 points... you could make over 100 GBP profit...

but recently you have been having to pay 5 GBP and in order to buy a daily wall st put or call at such a price... it would be more like 200 to 300 points out of the money... so you would need to see the dow move 200 to 300 points or more to be able to make any sort of worth while profit on them..

from July 28th.... IGs existing non pro clients will have to pay 50 GBPs for the same sort of opportunity..
 
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Its starting to look like these 3 options/choices then :

1) put up the extra margin to cover reduction in leverage(down from 1:300 to 1:30) and continue spreadbetting with your UK broker as before with your funds in the safety of UK regulators.

2) Apply for an account like IG,IC markets outside the EU, trade CFD's (no spreadbetting) on higher leverage e.g (1:500 forex..1:200 indices) on a smaller margin account and deal with the tax implications and also the fact its none uk regulated.

3) If you meet the criteria then apply for professional status.

Any other options then feel free to add...
 
They seem to have changed the margin amounts as well as the ratios. I have been trading 10:1 since I began trading. It should have made zero difference to me when the changes came in but it seems this isn't the case. I could open 5 positions before I would get a not enough margin error and now I can only trade 2. Having opened up a swing trade this week I am unable to place new trades and have to add more capital to do so.



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Be interesting to find a table to show the differences in new margin requirements FXX
 
Its starting to look like these 3 options/choices then :

1) put up the extra margin to cover reduction in leverage(down from 1:300 to 1:30) and continue spreadbetting with your UK broker as before with your funds in the safety of UK regulators.

2) Apply for an account like IG,IC markets outside the EU, trade CFD's (no spreadbetting) on higher leverage e.g (1:500 forex..1:200 indices) on a smaller margin account and deal with the tax implications and also the fact its none uk regulated.

3) If you meet the criteria then apply for professional status.

Any other options then feel free to add...

Stop trading? :)
 
Be interesting to find a table to show the differences in new margin requirements FXX
I have emailed my broker for clarification. It doesn't make sense, I should have been unaffected and if you try search for this information it doesn't exist. My broker discusses the percent margin requirements but I thought those percentages are tied to the leverage ratio which according to the information, is described according to the max (30:1).i think they have upped the margin requirements even for traders like me who trades with responsible risk. I wonder if this is in accordance with the rules or an excuse to up their aggregate client holdings. What is their reasoning for this, it is a question I am currently unable to answer but it might have something to do with their bargaining power with their service providers. Anyone have any opinions on this?
 
Its starting to look like these 3 options/choices then :

1) put up the extra margin to cover reduction in leverage(down from 1:300 to 1:30) and continue spreadbetting with your UK broker as before with your funds in the safety of UK regulators.

2) Apply for an account like IG,IC markets outside the EU, trade CFD's (no spreadbetting) on higher leverage e.g (1:500 forex..1:200 indices) on a smaller margin account and deal with the tax implications and also the fact its none uk regulated.

3) If you meet the criteria then apply for professional status.

Any other options then feel free to add...
Just seen a video from ukspreadbettting. Com

Apparently to be a professional trader you only need 2 out of the 3 rules to be classed as one

1)more than 10 trades per quarter
2)portfolio greater than 500k
3)works in financial services


I think I might be able to be classed as a pro trader given that I have 20 years exposure in the financial services industry.

Edit:
Just co firmed this with my broker. Going to apply for professional status.
 
So my broker couldn't give me a satisfactory response so I am persisting the question again this time in layman's terms since they can only spew scripted responses. They can't explain why I can't open more positions given that I have been trading at 10:1 since the account opened well over a year ago. The only thing that makes sense is they have reduced my leverage below 10:1 which is unacceptable on a major currency pair. Will update when I get news back.

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......cant be arsed to be placing funds outside Europe....big brother will close loopholes as soon as they can i suspect ....

but great work guys

N

That would be getting into the realms of Capital Controls and the implication from that would be far more worrying and wide reaching than ESMA margin requirements.
 
CFD's are only subject to Capital Gains tax and not income tax so as long as your gain is less than the £11300 tax free threshold then you don't even have complete a tax return as far as I understand and will not be hit with any tax.

It's the net gain also, so you can offset any losses.

I'm in the boat that I could probably make that much profit a year so it might be best to move to IG in Australia and trade CFDs
 
On speaking with City Index,

You can still trade Options on things like the Indexes with just the given quoted prices...
but you cannot get it on a lower margin price for say Monthly Options...

where for eg a call option on say August Wall Street 25800 call option for eg, may be quoted at say 100 points at say a stake of 1 or 2 GBP a point... (a total of either 100 GBP or 200 GBP ) and before ESMA you may had paid a lower fee on a margin at say 35 points... per point to own that option ...(say 70 or 140 GBP for eg out of your account)

but instead since ESMA has come in... you now will have to pay the FULL quoted price of 100 points..
(for eg say either 1 x 100 = 100 or 2 x 200 = 200 GBP)

BUT you dont have to pay 10 Times more than 100 points that could cost 100 x 10 = 1000 ..or more
or have to pay say 10 x the prior lower fee of 35 points that would have been 35 x 10 = 350

so you could hold a position on the Dow Jones for say 100 points X your stake per point..

I am told if you are say buying Daily Wall Street Options that can be as low as say 5 to 10 points...
that you can still pay those same prices as before ESMA came in....

so you dont have to pay 10 x that ammount which say could have been 10 x 5 = 50

NOW thats what CITY INDEX TOLD ME...

BUT when I asked IG Index.... I got two different suggestions...

Initially I was told similar as what City Index told me...

BUT I asked for written conformation.... and they enquired with their options desk..
They said that the prices would be 10 x more....

SO I AM STILL UNSURE HOW IGs OPTIONS Prices may occur....

when I last looked they were still seeming the same as they used to before on certain Options, such as the daily and weekly options that they offer on say Wall St for eg...

ON their monthly options... they for some reason are are only showing or offering very few listed ...

that maybe because they are intending to ammend their pricing on what they offer..

BUT in theory based on what City Index told me.. if your just buyig straight Call or Put Options and NOT SELLING Options on Margin.... then you should not need to be paying 10 X the amount...

CITY INDEX always used to offer their option prices on wall st for eg.., at a reduced margin rate..

BUT I dont think IG did offer their options at a lower margin rate...

IF you trade options with these companies however... at least you can still trade certain Index like markets at low costs....

You be on what they describe as a restricted account... where you are limited to only being able to trade certain markets.. or may you wont be able to trade futures but could trade or BUY straight call or put Options with them...

IGs Options Customer service no longer exists... so you cannot speak direct with them..which has become one of their real downfalls as at one time you could have spoke direct to them..

Where as City Index you can still speak with their Options Customer service..
 
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Good morning,

Welcome to a new world. The first thing I saw this morning when I opened my screen was an advert for Plus 500, where they suggested you trade Bitcoin, and then after that promotional sentence, it said: "80% lose".

I imagine these warnings will be ignored by people just like smokers fade out the images on the cigarette packages.

Still, looking at the screen this morning, I have 2 broker platforms side by side. One side has a broker where I have opted for PRO status, and next to it a broker where I haven't gotten around to apply for PRO status.

I bring up the Dow ticket. I input the average stake size for UK clients, which I have been told is around £7.50. To make it easier, I input £10.

Dow margin on PRO platform = £1,250

Dow margin on NON PRO platform = £12,500

So in answer to your question Sonicscooter, there is a good chance that people don't have an extra £11,250 spare capital available to deposit on their trading account.

I have written 3 articles about ESMA on my website www.tradertom.com. I have fought ESMA as a citizen by argument and reason. I supported IG's initiative on REPLYTOESMA.

I argued that Binary should not tarnish everything else, including spread betting and CFD trading. I am glad to see Binary gone, but I doubt you can simply remove an industry. Did the alcohol industry disappear during the Prohibition? No, it just moved across the border. This is in my mind what ESMA has achieved. They have exported the problem elsewhere, but it will still rear its ugly head.

ESMA could have achieved a sensible outcome by demanding a Negative Balance Protection from all brokers, on par with what BAFIN in Germany had done in 2017. It would have achieved a stop to the disaster stories we saw during the "Flash Crash" and the "2015 Swiss National Bank Announcement".

A typical UK spread betting account is about £2500. People will wake up this morning and realize there is not much fun in trading FTSE and having to deposit £380 for every pound staked. They will, if they can, deposit more money on their account, but I don't think this will apply to the majority.

I run a private signal channel on Telegram, where I tell people what I buy and short and when. There are currently 496 members in there. I should just add that I am not charging for it. This is not an advert in disguise.

I ran one of those SurveyMonkey surveys where I asked a question about the new ESMA rules. It was a pretty simple survey, and all I wanted was to get a feel for what people would do when faced with the new ESMA rules.

Question 1: Can you, and if you can, will you apply for Pro Status?


15% replied they could and would.



Question 2: Assuming you can't successfully apply for Pro Status, will you deposit more funds on your account?

37% said they would deposit more funds on their trading accounts.



Question 3: Assuming you can't successfully apply for Pro Status, will you seek an account outside the EU?


74% responded that they would seek an account outside the EU.


If those numbers are correct, and I will be the first to argue that the sample space is small, then what ESMA has done has backfired. ESMA intended to create a safer environment for the private investor. Instead they have thrown retail traders into the hands of foreign CFD providers.

Of course just because a CFD provider is based outside the EU does not make him the big bad wolf. However, when it comes to investor protection, we are privileged in the EU. My articles make an argument for Australia because of the bank protection guarantees as well as an Ombudsman, as opposed to selecting a broker on say Cayman Islands, where I have no protection.

So today is D day. For some it is business as usual, while for others, it is a day of wondering what to do. I have been in the industry since 2001. I dont agree with the CEO of IG Markets, who said that the industry brought this on by itself. We didn't. We got more competitive.

In 2001 the spread in the DAX was 8 points. The spread on the quarterly Dow was 16. You barely had charts, let alone online platforms. We have innovated ourselves into the point where people arriving to the trading industry do not have to worry about charting packages costing 300 dollars a month, because the brokers provide it for free. They don't have to worry about news flow because most brokers provide it for free.

Trading is really not an easy game to crack. You need your A-game every day. It is a job or a serious hobby. All the brokers have done is make it easy for you to implement your game. Would you rather trade DAX at a 1-point spread or a 4-point spread?

I don't work in the industry anymore, and I haven't done since 2009, but I don't see how this was the industry's fault. The advertising standards made sure the adverts were kept in line. The Ombudsman handled complaints. The brokers made sure they kept in line. The odd fine here and there made sure the FCA showed their teeth from time to time. So what happened? Was it too much margin? OK, fine, reduce it to 100 to 1 and keep it there.

ESMA has committed a grave error, and they have not learned from history. We may not have a similar situation apart from Japan's ban on margin a few years ago, but we have from so many other avenues in life. When you create a void, it will be filled by someone.

Tom
 
It's going to be interesting to see how many brokers open up shop outside the eu and offer clients an easy migration to those accounts. The UK retail industry has taken a hit. My soon to be ex broker can't explain and is ignoring me when I query it. Basically I have been trading at 10:1 since long before the changes have been enforced. Since the changes I can no longer open 5 positions and instead am limited to 2. Now given that I am already below the min rate I should have been unaffected. Well several emails in which they pointed me to the Esma documentation that doesn't mention margin increases in isolation to leverage changes. 2 days and still no answer.

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Good article again Tom.

Ah, but mate, regulators don't work for the benefit of the consumers serviced by their respective industry - they work firstly for their political masters and secondly for the industry constituents. The most important political masters are the ones in power in central government - their employers. The most important industry constituents are the biggest - who have been and will be around longest and who have most clout with the political masters.

The consumers are only important as a potential (but disorganised) source of embarrassment for their political masters, but I suspect in the current ESMA CFD margin situation, the groundswell of opinion in favour of tougher regulation came from the large players in the financial sector who could see lots of potential investment cash drifting into self-investment schemes rather than their own products. Once they'd convinced the regulator it was a free perk for them, they must be calculating much of that previously self-managed money will now be coming their way.

Well, so it goes.
 
Just found a leverage calculator and it looks like AXI trader, my soon to be ex broker, has reduced my leverage to 3:1

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