Efficient Trading

[charliechan]

Note my remark about qualification. You provide at least two of the qualifications.

But, again, this all has to do with stops. There are many other threads which are devoted to this subject. No one has as yet explained why it is necessary to go into this again from scratch. Is something new being provided? No. So . . .

eeer i think you got it a bit muddled there.

yes there have been many threads on stops (probably). you may be correct in suggesting they are full of the same old same old..

something new was starting to be provided here, but you and your chums would rather derail the thread of thought for reasons known only unto yourselves.

 

[wasp]

Note my remark about qualification. You provide at least two of the qualifications.

But, again, this all has to do with stops. There are many other threads which are devoted to this subject. No one has as yet explained why it is necessary to go into this again from scratch. Is something new being provided? No. So . . .

I don't think this is starting from scratch nor do I see why this should be upon a different thread. Regardless of the original threads purpose this has been split to 'Efficient trading' and I would like to continue on and feel stops are an important factor within 'Efficient trading'. Something new could have been provided here but.... Rather than cover old ground, lets try to go further instead of writing it off allready...

full marks for trying to bring the thread round to a more constructive purpose, other than banging on about the same tired old accusations that just bore everybody.

the point is, that in order to use such a tight stop with pinpoint timing is a skill few have. in a way, this tight stop + timing IS taking into consideration volatility, but in a way few will understand because most people on this thread it would seem would rather try and **** someone off rather than take the time to improve themselves, their technique and understanding.

could this also be the answer to another lengthy thread where the same person was criticised personally rather than discuss the issues at hand? (why do so many people lose thread). there, i tried to point out that most lose because of their negative attitudes, usually borne of inferior self-image. those same reasons seem to be why this thread is so rapidly deteriorating from what started as a promising theory.

thank god everybody isnt this stupid - otherwise we would all still believe the world to be flat.

Cheers CC, I have had my differences in the past with Soc, but the longer I've been trading the more he makes sense and I now view his posts from a different point of view, ie helpfully. I'm not interested in the discussion of Socrates but rather the points he submits and trying to enhance trading performance.

Bringing it back, obviously when someone considers their entry they have two factors in mind, one being the eventual (hopeful) profit, and the second is being stopped out and ensuring they are not prematurely.

Nobody wants, and its a real kick in the teeth when you get stopped out and then the price reverses back into your favour. On the flip side, losses need to be kept as tight as possible to ensure the minimal losses. Thats where most (esp. rookies) have problems.

So whats too tight/loose?

There are numerous factors too consider -

What is the market (stock, indicies, energy, currencies)?
What is the time frame?
How long are you intending to hold the (X) for?
How much % are you willing to lose?
Whats your projected Ratio 3:1?

Personally, I don't think any of these should be a factor, whether holding a trade for three months or 3 minutes, whether the chosen whatever is volatile or dull or your % ratio is 10:1 should be irrelevent. All trades should be entered at the best point in time for maximum profit and rather than worry whether your %ratio meets your excel sheet you should be concentrating on perfect proficiency.

 

[dbphoenix]

eeer i think you got it a bit muddled there.

yes there have been many threads on stops (probably). you may be correct in suggesting they are full of the same old same old..

something new was starting to be provided here, but you and your chums would rather derail the thread of thought for reasons known only unto yourselves.

No, nothing new. And I don't know about the "chums" part. But the issue is not whether anything new was being provided but what it had to do with the original thread, which it did not. The "derailment" came from Bertie and his followers The objections had to do with that derailment.

If you'll review my post to this and the original thread, you'll find that I haven't sought to derail anything. In fact, I suggested to Profitaker that he leave it alone. All I want is to be able to discuss matters of mutual interest with other traders and not be attacked -- or watch others be attacked -- by someone who is interested only in advancing his own agenda.

If you and the rest of Bertie's followers choose to believe that he has something unique or even just special to offer, that's just fine. Knock yourselves out. But must you pursue this devotion in thread after thread after thread? How much nicer to set up your own group in which you can discuss anything you like with whomever you like, free from all interference. Wouldn't that be nice? And all you have to do is ask.

And, no, frugi, I would not have made this "off-topic" post if it were not for chan's remark regarding derailment. If you want to delete the entire exchange, feel free.

 

[Profitaker]

the point is, that in order to use such a tight stop with pinpoint timing is a skill few have. in a way, this tight stop + timing IS taking volatility into consideration ,but in a way few will understand........

I for one certainly don't understand what you're talking about. Do you ? In your quest for a constructive thread, would you mind explaining it further ?

If you and the rest of Bertie's followers choose to believe that he has something unique or even just special to offer, that's just fine. Knock yourselves out. But must you pursue this devotion in thread after thread after thread?

Very succinctly put.

 

[dbphoenix]

I don't think this is starting from scratch nor do I see why this should be upon a different thread. Regardless of the original threads purpose this has been split to 'Efficient trading' and I would like to continue on and feel stops are an important factor within 'Efficient trading'. Something new could have been provided here but.... Rather than cover old ground, lets try to go further instead of writing it off allready...

FWIW, I do admire your efforts to enlighten rather than obscure, while others carry on in the tradition of I Know Something You Don't Know. And while attaching these posts to a pre-existing thread on stops, given all the weeks of work the mods put in not too long ago to reorganize forums and consolidate threads, made and makes more sense to me, whatever you learn and wherever you learn it is in your control.

 

[charliechan]

A/ No, nothing new. And I don't know about the "chums" part. But the issue is not whether anything new was being provided but what it had to do with the original thread, which it did not. The "derailment" came from Bertie and his followers The objections had to do with that derailment.

B/ If you'll review my post to this and the original thread, you'll find that I haven't sought to derail anything. In fact, I suggested to Profitaker that he leave it alone. All I want is to be able to discuss matters of mutual interest with other traders and not be attacked -- or watch others be attacked -- by someone who is interested only in advancing his own agenda.

C/ If you and the rest of Bertie's followers choose to believe that he has something unique or even just special to offer, that's just fine. Knock yourselves out. But must you pursue this devotion in thread after thread after thread? How much nicer to set up your own group in which you can discuss anything you like with whomever you like, free from all interference. Wouldn't that be nice? And all you have to do is ask.

And, no, frugi, I would not have made this "off-topic" post if it were not for chan's remark regarding derailment. If you want to delete the entire exchange, feel free.

A/ have you any friends? have you ever had a conversation with them in a bar perhaps, or any other social contact? i am not trying to be sarcastic, but often a converstaion drifts from subject to subject. that is one of the purposes of communication. to explore ideas that are connected to other areas. to suggest that everyone keeps to the original topic is just a shysters tactic imo - usually based on some personal issue. battle of the forum jockey in this case perhaps? both you and socrates do seem to spend a long time battling for the crown.

B/ fair point

C/ sure, a private form such as yours would be a solution. socrates doesnt seem to want to go down that route for reasons i do not know. i agree, it would be a good solution, however i dont think it is an excuse for other people to come down on socrates whenever he tries to suggest his point of view. if they dont like it, they can either put him on ignore or simply not read his posts. the fact that people dont do this just shows how childish they are. do his opinions really cause so much personal afront? if so, some people must be very thin skinned, and the markets or a chat board clearly are not the place for them.

i wouldnt describe myself as a socrates disciple either. sure i recognise that a lot of what he says is true, and that a lot of people could benefit from thinking about some of his more insightful posts. i just think its a shame that some people have nothing better to do than cause trouble. they are like these delinquent teenagers with nothing better to do - you know the type - trash who are are on their way to nowhere other than a sad sorry life bitching at how hard done by they are in life and how everything is someone elses fault. of course, they like to talk it up with posts about standard deviations, linear regression, and what successful spread betters they are! lol.

 

[Splitlink]

Note my remark about qualification. You provide at least two of the qualifications.

But, again, this all has to do with stops. There are many other threads which are devoted to this subject. No one has as yet explained why it is necessary to go into this again from scratch. Is something new being provided? No. So . . .

Quite true. Which goes to show where the new trader's main worry, usually, is and why the stop question will crop up time and time again.

Split

 

[charliechan]

I for one certainly don't understand what you're talking about. Do you ? In your quest for a constructive thread, would you mind explaining it further ?

lol you are kidding right.

sure - i am well aware you do not understand this issue. that is why, in your frustration, you resort to talking standard deviations, and bashing other people. this is demonstrated in your post above when you question if i know what im talking about! how silly!

try reading this book, it may help:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...39408/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/203-4309412-2756713

and yes, i would mind explaining further. why should i? you had your chance hearing it directly from the horses mouth, but instead, you thought it more profitable to act like a goat. so you miss out! bad luck cowboy.

although i have a good grasp of what socrates was talking about, i thought it a good idea he continue for others benefit as i recognise it as quite an important issue for you newbies. he could probably explain it a lot better than i could anyway.

anyway, its easter. a religious time of the year. so with that in mind, why dont you pick up a bible and read the bit about 'he shall reap what he sows'. quite appropriate i am sure you will agree!

happy easter everyone, im offski!

 

[wasp]

I see I'm wasting my time.

 

[dbphoenix]

A/ have you any friends? have you ever had a conversation with them in a bar perhaps, or any other social contact? i am not trying to be sarcastic, but often a converstaion drifts from subject to subject. that is one of the purposes of communication. to explore ideas that are connected to other areas. to suggest that everyone keeps to the original topic is just a shysters tactic imo - usually based on some personal issue. battle of the forum jockey in this case perhaps? both you and socrates do seem to spend a long time battling for the crown.

Yes, I do have friends. And, yes, discussions do drift from topic to topic. However, there is a difference between a collegial discussion amongst individuals with common or similar interests, and the efforts of those individuals to have those discussions while their small children are tugging at their skirts, pants, shirt sleeves, demanding attention. At some point, the children must either go out and play while the grownups have their discussion, or the grownups must call it quits and take the children home.

C/ sure, a private form such as yours would be a solution.

Who said anything about private? It can be public. But Bertie would be the moderator with all the moderator's tools. Every word that Bertie ever uttered would all be there, in one place, available to all the faithful, and they could talk amongst themselves without interference of any kind (since anything not meeting with Bertie's approval could be deleted) on any subject they liked, creating new threads at will. Sounds like Paradise to me.

i wouldnt describe myself as a socrates disciple either. sure i recognise that a lot of what he says is true, and that a lot of people could benefit from thinking about some of his more insightful posts. i just think its a shame that some people have nothing better to do than cause trouble. they are like these delinquent teenagers with nothing better to do - you know the type - trash who are are on their way to nowhere other than a sad sorry life bitching at how hard done by they are in life and how everything is someone elses fault. of course, they like to talk it up with posts about standard deviations, linear regression, and what successful spread betters they are! lol.

You may not be a disciple, but, no offense intended, the two of you have a remarkable similarity in style. Compare your last post to that of chrisw. You have that same casual disregard that Bertie does, and that's unfortunate. If you know as much as you claim to, I'm sure that many people could benefit from it. But if your attitude is "why bother?", why post at all?

 

[charliechan]

dbp (& chrisw) - are you refferring to my post where i said:

full marks for trying to bring the thread round to a more constructive purpose, other than banging on about the same tired old accusations that just bore everybody.

if so, i admit this does not read how i intended it to read. i should have stated:

full marks for trying to bring the thread round to a more constructive purpose. UNLIKE others who keep banging on about the same tired old accusations that just bore everybody.... (a bit like were doing i guess )

im making no claims to knowing much about anything. i know a bit about this and that but i wouldnt say im an expert. my attitude isnt why bother either. its why bother with people who just cause trouble.

anyway i really am off now. my mates are here and the pubs only open for another couple of hours....

so im offski....

 

[SOCRATES]

This thread is being very closely observed because of its content.

I have been in close consultation all day with regard to it.

Finally it is unanimously agreed I should make a statement but not in a way that is likely to impair tactics, strategies or to damage edges, or to discuss or reveal methodologies,and wihout going anywhere near timing or entry and exit points.

There are several matters you should consider.

The first is that tight stops are crucial, the tighter they are the better. I am not going to go over the reasons again, since they are perfectly obvious to serious and accomplished traders and obvious to newbies, but by the life of me I cannot understand the reluctance to embrace the principle properly.

Consider an amout of capital availabel for trading, the figure does not matter.

Now consider these two fundamental truths.

Consider that proficient traders get it right many many more times than they get it wrong.
Consider that traders who are not proficient get it wrong more often than they should.

This does not offend anyone does it ? Good.

Because if you consider carefully, it is the efficient traders who are able to recover any losses easily, whereas the inefficient traders have difficulty in recovering losses with such ease.

Therefore it logically follows that for inefficient traders it is more difficult to recover losses.

Now consider the implications for an inefficient trader to have a string of losses using wide stops...

Here is the arithmetic:~

Loss of 10% of capital leaves balance of 90%

To restore that 90% back to 100% needs a return net of 11.11%, so far so good...

Loss of 20% of capital leaves a balance of 80 %

To restore that 80% back to 100% needs a return of 25 %, you see...

Loss of capital of 30% leaves a balance of 70%, agreed ?

T o restore 70% back to 100% now requires a return of 42.85%...not funny is it ?

Loss of capital of 40% leaves a balance of 60% is this not correct now ? Yes.

To restore 60% back to 100% now requires a return of 66.66% ...this is getting to be a real burden

Loss fo capital of 50% leaves a balance of 50%

To restore this 50% back to 100% requires a return of 100%...now this is getting to be a real real challenge for newbies...

Loss of capital ot 60% leaves a balance of 40%

To restore that 40% back to 100% requires a return of 150% This is getting to become a near impossibe mission by this stage....

There is no need to take this excercise in plain arithmetic any further, because if it has not landed by now, it never will.

I am showing you these figures because they are wholly relevant to the problem to which this thread is dedicated.

Wide stops are the cause of spiralling losses. Spiralling losses are the cause of negative emotions.

And conversely, negative emotions and their corrolaries, end up causing losses, by derelicts ending up doing the wrong things.

Negative emotions result in fear. Fear is the cause of not being able to pull the trigger even when the opportunity is clear.

Presentation of clear opportunities further stimulate frustrating feelings at not being able to pull the trigger, or what is worse, to pull the wrong one. As it is newbies who are apt to get it wrong many more times than they get it right, these series of negative outcomes which appear repeatedly causes two main forms of damage.

1. Accumulated losses, allowed to spiral unnecessarily.

2. Psychological damage, more serious, with the risk of if not permanent, at least near permanent damage.

While all this is going on, the proficient traders take small hits and recover very quickly and easily from them.

In parallel, the newbies get more and more desperate, more and more frustrated, and more and more abusive to any suggestion that will constructively bring to their notice the folly of their conduct, I respectfully submit.

When the trading psychologist is called in to help, now he finds a complete cat's cradle of a knot of problems to deal with. The trouble is, the victim is sometimes not even aware of what these problems are and where they emanate, because many of them are linked and intertwined and dependent upon one another. And often they are well hidden by pride, and an inability to confront, and so on.A real mess.

But where they emanate is clear to me if to no one else.

They emanate from dereliction, as a result of succumbing to greed and impatience and an excess of testosterone, and of using wide stops and finding arcane excuses to justify them and to continue to justify them.

Now, there's food for thought.

The irony is, that experienced and proficient traders do not need to be told this, as they may already intuitively know it if not at a conscious level. The newbies need to be told, but respond inappropriately,
I again respectfully submit.

Now discuss all of this among yourselves for the rest of the weekend.

 

[rols]

There's nothing to discuss. It's bloomin' obvious innit?

 

[dbphoenix]

dbp (& chrisw) - are you refferring to my post where i said:

Well, no. But now we're really getting off topic.

Comments like "and yes, i would mind explaining further. why should i?" and "most people on this thread it would seem would rather try and **** someone off rather than take the time to improve themselves, their technique and understanding" and "thank god everybody isnt this stupid - otherwise we would all still believe the world to be flat."

If so many people are so stupid and won't try and there's no point in your trying to explain further, why post at all? Your take on all of this is essentially the same as Bertie's, and the question I've asked of you is essentially the same question that's been asked of Bertie. Perhaps you're doing it unintentionally. If so, think about it.

 

[SOCRATES]

Well, no. But now we're really getting off topic.

If so many people are so stupid and won't try and there's no point in your trying to explain further, why post at all? Your take on all of this is essentially the same as Bertie's, and the question I've asked of you is essentially the same question that's been asked of Bertie. Perhaps you're doing it unintentionally. If so, think about it.

And this is so funny that I cannot resist it.

This is a website for traders. There are many different levels of proficiency amongst traders.

Each level has its own level.

This is a website for discussion between traders each according to his level, it is not a classroom.

A classroom for your benefit, which is what you would like.

We are not here as teachers, to teach you or anybody else.

This does not stop us from time to time from being helpful, but only up to a point, and no further.

I cannot say it more clearly than that. This time, I hope and expect that it lands, because all of this is about competing, and not about sharing, which is what you would like.

You appear to confuse discussion and sharing, very funny.

I am not sharing, and I am sure Charlie isn't either, the effort is too great.

And, in any event, why should we ?

If you want to appear generous <TIC> you go ahead and do it, but don't expect everyone else to comply with your wishes and intent.just because it would conveniently <TIC> suit you personally or otherwise.

 

[Jerry Olson]

This thread is being very closely observed because of its content.

I have been in close consultation all day with regard to it.

Finally it is unanimously agreed I should make a statement but not in a way that is likely to impair tactics, strategies or to damage edges, or to discuss or reveal methodologies,and wihout going anywhere near timing or entry and exit points.

There are several matters you should consider.

The first is that tight stops are crucial, the tighter they are the better. I am not going to go over the reasons again, since they are perfectly obvious to serious and accomplished traders and obvious to newbies, but by the life of me I cannot understand the reluctance to embrace the principle properly.

Consider an amout of capital availabel for trading, the figure does not matter.

Now consider these two fundamental truths.

Consider that proficient traders get it right many many more times than they get it wrong.
Consider that traders who are not proficient get it wrong more often than they should.

This does not offend anyone does it ? Good.

Because if you consider carefully, it is the efficient traders who are able to recover any losses easily, whereas the inefficient traders have difficulty in recovering losses with such ease.

Therefore it logically follows that for inefficient traders it is more difficult to recover losses.

Now consider the implications for an inefficient trader to have a string of losses using wide stops...

Here is the arithmetic:~

Loss of 10% of capital leaves balance of 90%

To restore that 90% back to 100% needs a return net of 11.11%, so far so good...

Loss of 20% of capital leaves a balance of 80 %

To restore that 80% back to 100% needs a return of 25 %, you see...

Loss of capital of 30% leaves a balance of 70%, agreed ?

T o restore 70% back to 100% now requires a return of 42.85%...not funny is it ?

Loss of capital of 40% leaves a balance of 60% is this not correct now ? Yes.

To restore 60% back to 100% now requires a return of 66.66% ...this is getting to be a real burden

Loss fo capital of 50% leaves a balance of 50%

To restore this 50% back to 100% requires a return of 100%...now this is getting to be a real real challenge for newbies...

Loss of capital ot 60% leaves a balance of 40%

To restore that 40% back to 100% requires a return of 150% This is getting to become a near impossibe mission by this stage....

There is no need to take this excercise in plain arithmetic any further, because if it has not landed by now, it never will.

I am showing you these figures because they are wholly relevant to the problem to which this thread is dedicated.

Wide stops are the cause of spiralling losses. Spiralling losses are the cause of negative emotions.

And conversely, negative emotions and their corrolaries, end up causing losses, by derelicts ending up doing the wrong things.

Negative emotions result in fear. Fear is the cause of not being able to pull the trigger even when the opportunity is clear.

Presentation of clear opportunities further stimulate frustrating feelings at not being able to pull the trigger, or what is worse, to pull the wrong one. As it is newbies who are apt to get it wrong many more times than they get it right, these series of negative outcomes which appear repeatedly causes two main forms of damage.

1. Accumulated losses, allowed to spiral unnecessarily.

2. Psychological damage, more serious, with the risk of if not permanent, at least near permanent damage.

While all this is going on, the proficient traders take small hits and recover very quickly and easily from them.

In parallel, the newbies get more and more desperate, more and more frustrated, and more and more abusive to any suggestion that will constructively bring to their notice the folly of their conduct, I respectfully submit.

When the trading psychologist is called in to help, now he finds a complete cat's cradle of a knot of problems to deal with. The trouble is, the victim is sometimes not even aware of what these problems are and where they emanate, because many of them are linked and intertwined and dependent upon one another. And often they are well hidden by pride, and an inability to confront, and so on.A real mess.

But where they emanate is clear to me if to no one else.

They emanate from dereliction, as a result of succumbing to greed and impatience and an excess of testosterone, and of using wide stops and finding arcane excuses to justify them and to continue to justify them.

Now, there's food for thought.

The irony is, that experienced and proficient traders do not need to be told this, as they may already intuitively know it if not at a conscious level. The newbies need to be told, but respond inappropriately,
I again respectfully submit.

Now discuss all of this among yourselves for the rest of the weekend.

Hi there Socrates

you make a ton of valid points...i am late to this discussion...but i would like to just say.

newbies are in trouble from the get go since they have no real clue as to what they are doing or should be doing.

reading books ain't gonna get it that's for sure.

paper trading is fun and enjoyable but when you have to place hard earned cash in the fire all things you read go right out the window.

but really the way i learned to trade years ago was to find a mentor that was willing to let you sit there and watch him/her trade like a pro. use their charts, their techniques etc.

till it gets in there by OSMOSIS! and i am not kidding either.

i am not the smartest guy in the world trust me. but i can see repetative redundant tradable patterns that work most of the time, and after 2 hard years of studing and watching daytraders at work, i then went on my own. Yes that's correct 2 years.

that's how i learned that's how i trade.

and one last thing. anyone that trades the markets without stops is commiting suicide.

traders just have to learn what kind of stops to use and how much they want to risk on every single trade.

in closing since i am older than dirt i can safely state what is................IS! trade what you see not what you think. act and react mechanically and you'll be much better off.

always sell too soon, and forget the outside noise..

have a great holiday all...

 

[SOCRATES]

Hi there Socrates

you make a ton of valid points...i am late to this discussion...but i would like to just say.

newbies are in trouble from the get go since they have no real clue as to what they are doing or should be doing.

reading books ain't gonna get it that's for sure.

paper trading is fun and enjoyable but when you have to place hard earned cash in the fire all things you read go right out the window.

but really the way i learned to trade years ago was to find a mentor that was willing to let you sit there and watch him/her trade like a pro. use their charts, their techniques etc.

till it gets in there by OSMOSIS! and i am not kidding either.

i am not the smartest guy in the world trust me. but i can see repetative redundant tradable patterns that work most of the time, and after 2 hard years of studing and watching daytraders at work, i then went on my own. Yes that's correct 2 years.

that's how i learned that's how i trade.

and one last thing. anyone that trades the markets without stops is commiting suicide.

traders just have to learn what kind of stops to use and how much they want to risk on every single trade.

in closing since i am older than dirt i can safely state what is................IS! trade what you see not what you think. act and react mechanically and you'll be much better off.

always sell too soon, and forget the outside noise..

have a great holiday all...

Hi Jerry, I knew you would spot it, and I am pleased you concur.

I gave you a 10 for your article. I enjyed it immensely.

OSMOSIS, I love it. Very apt.

 

[sulong]

Fantastic!
Just pray deeply enough, and often enough, your “losses” will be resurrected from the dead.
Feel the lords spirit within and the answers will come to you.

Too much

 

[Profitaker]

the point is, that in order to use such a tight stop with pinpoint timing is a skill few have. in a way, this tight stop + timing IS taking volatility into consideration ,but in a way few will understand........

I for one certainly don't understand what you're talking about. Do you ? In your quest for a constructive thread, would you mind explaining it further ?

lol you are kidding right.

sure - i am well aware you do not understand this issue. that is why, in your frustration, you resort to talking standard deviations, and bashing other people. this is demonstrated in your post above when you question if i know what im talking about! how silly!

try reading this book, it may help:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...39408/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/203-4309412-2756713

and yes, i would mind explaining further. why should i?

You had an opportunity to contribute constructively.I suggest it’s because you cannot rather than will not. It makes no difference to me.

 

[Profitaker]

Therefore it logically follows that for inefficient traders it is more difficult to recover losses.

Now consider the implications for an inefficient trader to have a string of losses using wide stops...

Here is the arithmetic:~

Loss of 10% of capital leaves balance of 90%

To restore that 90% back to 100% needs a return net of 11.11%, so far so good...

Loss of 20% of capital leaves a balance of 80 %

To restore that 80% back to 100% needs a return of 25 %, you see...

Loss of capital of 30% leaves a balance of 70%, agreed ?

T o restore 70% back to 100% now requires a return of 42.85%...not funny is it ?

Loss of capital of 40% leaves a balance of 60% is this not correct now ? Yes.

To restore 60% back to 100% now requires a return of 66.66% ...this is getting to be a real burden

Loss fo capital of 50% leaves a balance of 50%

To restore this 50% back to 100% requires a return of 100%...now this is getting to be a real real challenge for newbies...

Loss of capital ot 60% leaves a balance of 40%

To restore that 40% back to 100% requires a return of 150% This is getting to become a near impossibe mission by this stage....

There is no need to take this excercise in plain arithmetic any further, because if it has not landed by now, it never will.

Good effort Soc but....

A trader that loses 10% of his capital 5 times consecutively does not end up with 50% of his original capital. Similarly, a trader that gains 10% of his capital 5 times consecutively does not end up with 150% of his original capital ! You might try to turn your “basic arithmetic” into something slightly more advanced by studying the effects of compounding and exponential growth, including the base of natural logarithms.