Efficient Trading

jimbo57 said:
I would further add, we are after all on the sideline thread here, that Socco is the last person to enlighten us on 'volatility' - I suspect his understanding of such a maths formulae is stopped at the analogue age
Yes precisely.

A few weeks ago you ventured to make the statement in public that I am a fraud and a racist, I have not forgotten and you are marked.

Where you get these ideas from is your affair, as you and I have never met, and in any event I care not what you think.

For this reason, if I choose to give explanations of matters that perplex you I shall do so by PM,

I will add, to everyone else but you as a reward for your nasty attitude.
 
JumpOff said:
I don't remember Socrates saying that he doesn't consider volatility when placing his stops, rather that he uses it to his advantage when deciding when and how to enter. And as for volatility being complete random, -that is not my experience. Pressure builds, is unleashed, and then builds again.

Like Frugi, I have had my eyes opened to what is possible by watching live traders who rarely miss. Once I got over the humiliation of being outclassed by a factor of 20, then I was able to set aside disbelief for a while and pry my brain open a crack. The first thing I noticed was that these traders have a complete lack of fear - There is no waiting for confirmation. By the time the confirmation comes (triggering a rush of entries by other people that move the market even further in the anticipated direction), these folks are already in profit with the stop at b.e. or better.

143 profitable trades in a row. Wow. I want some of that. Is it possible? Let's see if I can pry my brain open another crack. I am a novice (mostly self taught), and last week I had 10 trades in a row go in my favor in the e-mini dow (YM), None of them went more than 5 points negative before going in the anticipated direction. Not all went like I thought they might, but all were closed above costs, and later when I calculated the risk:reward average on these trades it was 1:2. Now that was a rare and happy event for me, but I expect it is well below 'the norm' for an average professional. How did it happen - dang! If I knew that, I'd do it all the time, wouldn't I? One thing I do know, is that in intra-day trading, one good trade leads to the next. Start off wrong footed, and it' s best for me just to go walk the dog or something, and then come back and look with fresh eyes. The pleasure and relaxation that come from taking the sweet meat out of a move, enables me to 'see' the next entry much more clearly. So crank that up by a factor of 20 and yes, I think the crack in my brain may be big enough to stuff in that concept of a stellar run of winning trades.

JO
Exactly, well spotted.
 
frugi said:
Thank you for your kind comments Charlton. Your understanding of the situation is typically acute and correct.

If one can truly understand context and motive then price action often gives massive clues as to the nature of the next move. Useful footsteps are continually imprinted in the soil of price action and if one has the skill to understand what they mean, in different situations, then a sharp edge may present itself. At this level of proficiency you can defenestrate your systems, statistics, historical quant analysis and implied volatilities and simply wait for the market to present a near perfect opportunity then cash in with pinpoint accuracy. This cannot, as Socrates said, be mechanised as each moment in the market is paradoxically unique yet still conforms to a sort of blueprint to those that can read it.

Reducing the market to a series of equations or implied statistical probabilities may give you a reasonable edge and consistent profitability (if so, that's wonderful - I'm not knocking it for a second - damn it you're ahead of the 90% or whatever) but it is surely ultimately more rewarding to look directly inside the market as opposed to reading it in fuzzy translation. It is an organic, artistic approach that scientists, engineers and mathematicians may find hard to swallow as they are too busy running numbers through fixed filters, their brains trained and almost hard-wired to a certain way of thinking that serves them marvellously in other disciplines but only imperfectly in the market.

Socrates has mentioned "visual mathematics" before and perhaps that describes the meeting of past and present transactions, eye, brain, calculations, adaptation, empathy, art, science and strategy rather well, though it is a modus operandi far above where I am and probably ever will be, though fwiw I've got a bit of a handle on exhaustion (LOL ... only 7497 pieces to go). Perhaps if we understood the workings of the human brain in more depth then these mental calculations could be broken down into something a computer could deal with effectively, but at the moment there is still a divide, such as the one that prevents AI robots from being convincingly human. Like you said Charlton we use wider stops because even when we have a pretty good idea of direction our accuracy and skill are not sufficient to plunge in with almost total certainty that a 4 pip stop will not be in danger for a second. For this reason (my obvious lack of proficency) my attempt to explain is excessively vague, frustrating (to me, too) and misguided, but I hope that there is something worthwhile in the essence. Of course one will rarely hear how people learn to do this as we are, unfortunately, the enemy and also it is probably impossible to explain mechanically. But seeds are sometimes planted by the generous - it is up to us to do the thinking.

Incidentally if someone had claimed the above was possible to me a year or too ago I would have dismissed it as fantasy, but having seen a lot of evidence in support of it my view has changed considerably. Even the pathetic development of my ability has allowed me to cut stops down to a third of what they used to be and this is encouraging. Now just the small matter of fully letting go and truly seeing, not just looking.

Regarding the roulette wheel I think machines have been invented that view the wheel and run a lot of Newtonian physics / chaos calculations to predict where the ball will end up. There is another thread mentioning this somewhere. I believe they have been shown to offer a small edge (obviously not accurate every time) since once can bet while the wheel is spinning (before being hauled out of the casino by large men) :). There's lots about this on Google, though most of it seems to be the usual charlatans flogging rehashed ineffective versions. Food for thought anyway.
And you are also correct.
 
Charlton said:
Frugi
A moderator's role is time-consuming and, I should imagine, at times tedious. We should support our mods and I am certainly glad you did not resign, because I think you are doing a great job.

As I understand it from the remaining parts of the thread, the discussion between DBPhoenix, ProfitTaker and Socrates, is around the question of whether volatility should be taken into account when setting tighter and tighter stops.

For most of use the answer is probably Yes, because volatility is seen as an essentially "random factor" that we cannot control nor predict. Therefore our only option is to leave our stops wide enough to take account of our restricted knowledge, skill and experience.

We may be forced to do this because our predictive powers are not sufficient to know with sufficient degree of accuracy where a market is going. We might have a general idea and, therefore, can only survive suffciently long in a trade to catch that general trend by having a wider stop to ensure we are not stopped out too early. However that brings the commensurate risk of a bigger loss when we find that our deficient powers of prediction results in the market going aagainst us.

If however there is a trader's edge - one that can determine and perceive patterns beneath the apparent randomness of volatility, then perhaps the stops can be very tight. They can be so, because our predictive powers are highly tuned to what the market is really doing.

Volatility really means inability to predict and, not simply, fast-moving and wide-ranging prices.

If Socrates can enligten us a little as to how we could develop these skills then it would make most interesting reading.

Charlton
No, not quite.....And this in conjunction with your later post on this thread.

See your PM inbox later on this evening.

Kind Regards.
 
SOCRATES said:
Yes precisely.

A few weeks ago you ventured to make the statement in public that I am a fraud and a racist, I have not forgotten and you are marked.

Where you get these ideas from is your affair, as you and I have never met, and in any event I care not what you think.

For this reason, if I choose to give explanations of matters that perplex you I shall do so by PM,

I will add, to everyone else but you as a reward for your nasty attitude.

You know very well where those statements came from, so do not feign ignorance.

I would also add there is nothing you can possibly saty that perplexes me. I think it you, not I that has the 'nasty attitude'
 
Hi All

I'm not sure if this is the right place to discuss this as the thread seams to have been split. A number of threads (this included) seam to be springing up discussing volatility based and volatility adjusted stops.

I thought Id post as I'm getting a little confused as to what certain contributors actually mean by volatility. From my perspective I see cycles in what I personally term volatility. In periods of low volatility, prices trade in a narrow range, followed by a breakout from the range, where price trends a bit, retraces a bit etc etc followed by periods of low volatility trading in a narrow range at some other level. It jumps out just looking at a chart but for those of us addicted to those indicator thing's apply bollinger bands or Average True Range or a standard deviation indicator and its hopefully quite clear.

Now for the sake of argument lets say that my objective is to try and grab a bit of the move between the two low volatility states. Now when I'm placing an initial stop, particularly if its a very tight stop, my consideration is not so much volatility as “Random Noise” and to my mind this is a very different thing entirely. I'm not sure how you'd measure this noise, or spot it, but its there, and its different to volatility, measuring the volatility isn't measuring noise.

I could at a push even be tempted to argue that there's an inverse relationship between volatility and random noise. When the market starts moving decisively, and volatility is increasing Id argue that the “noise” in the signal is actually diminishing as the market shows its true intentions. A volatility based stop would lead to wider stops at the point of entry, particularly if that entry was correctly timed as the move commences and volatility starts to increase. Whereas if the stop was noise based, you could use even tighter stops !

Does this make sense to anyone ?
 
jimbo57 said:
You know very well where those statements came from, so do not feign ignorance.

I would also add there is nothing you can possibly saty that perplexes me. I think it you, not I that has the 'nasty attitude'
They came from you, because you made them.

You cannot blame anyone else for what you post.

You do the posting and not someone posting for you.

I do not have a nasty attitude.

I have the attitude to you that you merit.

And the reward you get from me is that I do not help you, that's all.

And I am not a fraud, and very far from being a racist.

 
SOCRATES said:
They came from you, because you made them.

You cannot blame anyone else for what you post.

You do the posting and not someone posting for you.

I do not have a nasty attitude.

I have the attitude to you that you merit.

And the reward you get from me is that I do not help you, that's all.

And I am not a fraud, and very far from being a racist.


I did make them, and basis the evidence elesewhere on this site (assuming it has not been cleaned) they are true, and thus I must stand by them.

You can have whatever attitude towards me that you like, I do not care. The only reason that I engage with you, having first been interested by the Journey thread, is that it is apparant to me that you are whatever I say you are (to *******ise MnMs), and that any new reader should be aware of this fact, and thus have the proper context when reading your posts.
 
jimbo57 said:
I did make them, and basis the evidence elesewhere on this site (assuming it has not been cleaned) they are true, and thus I must stand by them.

You can have whatever attitude towards me that you like, I do not care. The only reason that I engage with you, having first been interested by the Journey thread, is that it is apparant to me that you are whatever I say you are (to *******ise MnMs), and that any new reader should be aware of this fact, and thus have the proper context when reading your posts.
You spout rubbish because you are frustrated, which is obvious to everyone by now.

I am the holder of the knowledge you seek and I have the ability to punish you for your transgressions by denying it to you specifically, which is what I am doing, and that stimulates you additionally to behave the way you do.

The unfortunate part is that everybody here now suffers because of your conduct, which is a disgrace.

You ought to be banned, immediately.

I have no more time to devote to arguing with you, I have more wothwhile things to do.
 
SOCRATES said:
You spout rubbish because you are frustrated, which is obvious to everyone by now.

I am the holder of the knowledge you seek and I have the ability to punish you for your transgressions by denying it to you specifically, which is what I am doing, and that stimulates you additionally to behave the way you do.

The unfortunate part is that everybody here now suffers because of your conduct, which is a disgrace.

You ought to be banned, immediately.

I have no more time to devote to arguing with you, I have more wothwhile things to do.

So now you threaten me.....very sad old man!
 
...and thinking on friend, perhaps it is you that should be banned (under the relatively new banning rules) for issuing such a threat! Not Socrates, more Scrotes
 
jimbo57 said:
So now you threaten me.....very sad old man!
I am not threatening you, I do not need to threaten anybody, nor do I need to prove anything to anybody either.

But I have the right to do with my hard earned intellectual property and skills what I like and to impart them to whom I choose if I choose and I am telling you that as a consequence of your conduct, which is a disgrace, I will not help you in any way, that's all.

I do not bear you any animosity but I view you with the disdain you merit.
 
Right that's far enough. Jimbo "it is apparent to me" (i.e it is my opinion only) that the only reason you post is to stir up trouble, under the convenient guise of "protecting" new readers from the "facts". It is extremely patronising to assume they are somehow unable to do their own research and draw their own conclusions about Socrates, if indeed they want to. The Search function should yield plenty of "evidence". The Elvin pdf link has been around the site about five times now, it has been done to death. Socrates himself also addressed the "racist" issue some time ago and the post is still there for anyone who wants to read it.

Besides what Socrates may or may not get up to beyond the boundaries of Trade2Win is, well except in an extreme case perhaps, irrelevant. The mods' job is to ensure that while using Trade2Win - same for any member - he is free to post without being subjected to abuse; he abides by the site guidelines. If Soc did, say, run a dodgy second-hand car garage at the same time this doesn't have anything to do with us, unless of course he was found to be using the site explicitly to advertise his cars.

In short, please just drop it or you will indeed be banned. Accuse me of favouritsm if you like - but I just want to let the man post without being continually hounded and will take strong action to ensure this, if necessary. I will delete several of the above posts (no, not just yours) in due course.

Socrates it would also be welcome if you did not respond, especially in kind, to such provocation. Squabbles such as the above achieve little.
 
frugi said:
Right that's far enough. Jimbo "it is apparent to me" (i.e it is my opinion only) that the only reason you post is to stir up trouble, under the convenient guise of "protecting" new readers from the "facts". It is extremely patronising to assume they are somehow unable to do their own research and draw their own conclusions about Socrates, if indeed they want to. The Search function should yield plenty of "evidence". The Elvin pdf link has been around the site about five times now, it has been done to death. Socrates himself also addressed the "racist" issue some time ago and the post is still there for anyone who wants to read it.

Besides what Socrates may or may not get up to beyond the boundaries of Trade2Win is, well except in an extreme case perhaps, irrelevant. The mods' job is to ensure that while using Trade2Win - same for any member - he is free to post without being subjected to abuse; he abides by the site guidelines. If Soc did, say, run a dodgy second-hand car garage at the same time this doesn't have anything to do with us, unless of course he was found to be using the site explicitly to advertise his cars.

In short, please just drop it or you will indeed be banned. Accuse me of favouritsm if you like - but I just want to let the man post without being continually hounded and will take strong action to ensure this, if necessary. I will delete several of the above posts (no, not just yours) in due course.

Socrates it would also be welcome if you did not respond, especially in kind, to such provocation. Squabbles such as the above achieve little.

It is favouritism without a doubt. I think your comments are wholly without rationale, just for the record.
 
Dear frugi,

you must understand it is very galling to be systematically attacked like this by strangers for no other reason than envy and malice born out of envy.

I will defend myself vigorously as and when necessary. This is because all I am trying to do is to help raise the awareness of the membership for their benefit.

I sometimes wonder if it is a worthwhile excercise to have to put up with all this to benefit people who are obviously decent and deserve help.

I have a legal file here on the individual you mention 2 inches thick.

You have no idea how aggravating it is to have to struggle with dunces regardless of how many degrees they have, when they are told not to gamble and use stops and then they go and do the opposite and wipe themselves, and then they go elsewhere and are given the same advice and again with the same result, and again elsewhere and again the same advice with the same result, and all of this in very fast instruments and in multiples with stops of 20 points or more or none at all. Of course it is a recipe for disaster. And this intransigence and deleliction of responsiblity does not get mentioned, nor do the repeated warnings from myself, brokers, and other experienced traders, so there you have it.

Now the question is whether it is wothwhile to continue with a public discussion so that all can benefit, or to be rigourously selective and communicate via other means.
 
That is a question only you can answer, and I guess with 3k posts under your belt, I think I already know the answer
 
jimbo, please be quiet & let Soc speak, you've more than made your point.

Soc, I've often had difficulty following threads in which you've been heavily involved as they invariably become very lengthy & time doesn't always permit. However, I've persisted on this one & found your input to be extremely interesting & (hopefully) ultimately very helpful. I'm sure there are plenty of members like myself, who may not actively participate in these discussions, but still gain a lot from them. If you feel able to continue publically I'm sure we'd all appreciate it.

Simon
 
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