Does anyone here actually make money trading?

[Profitaker]

Aye, but I don't think there's any harm in asking.

 

[nine]

Perhaps he's an exceptionally clever person who knew that his statement would create a dynamic controversial thread.

He should make quite a trader

 

[tblackw320]

Thanks everyone for replying to this thread. I trade in a solitary environment as well and this is a good place to read about other traders. I scalp the s/p and it is a very thin market this " thanksgiving eve" afternoon. I started reading this thread to keep from overtrading . I have enjoyed it very much and was able to keep profits made this morning. Thanks! My journey began in the early 90's with day old newspapers because I lived in a rural area. I was then fortunate enough to trade with the lightning speed of 25k connections. To be able to have all the information needed to trade is a blessing indeed. Add to that having a link to other traders old and new is a miracle. Istarted trading full time in 1998. I have since had 2 outside sales jobs plus a small farm income. In 2005 I begain full time again. It is possible to do, but you have to find your on niche. It has been a "hell of a road " for me and my family. Is it worth it? That is for you to decide. The best reward I have found is that it has drawn out from with-in me every flaw known to mankind! I am just now starting to have self-confidence in my trading. The market has all the money to be made that you will ever need. It's your on short comings you will have to worry about. The market is the easy part. I wish you the best that wisdom and knowledge have. Thanks again everyone. I hope to be joining your wonderful conversations more often, from the "Hills of Tennessee" . Thats USA for you none "rednecks" like me!

 

[laptop1]

Most try to be helpful with thousand of post talking the talk, But not one will off 4 hours or even one day of their time to trade in a live room to show others it can be done.

And before you ask, yes, I have done it in the past on an American trading site.

A free chat room can be set up easily. Something to think about.

 

[FXSCALPER2]

Most try to be helpful with thousand of post talking the talk, But not one will off 4 hours or even one day of their time to trade in a live room to show others it can be done.

And before you ask, yes, I have done it in the past on an American trading site.

A free chat room can be set up easily. Something to think about.

I want to set up a chat room. How do I do it? I am very ignorant about that kinda stuff.

 

[dbphoenix]

Most try to be helpful with thousand of post talking the talk, But not one will off 4 hours or even one day of their time to trade in a live room to show others it can be done.

And before you ask, yes, I have done it in the past on an American trading site.

So have I, and perhaps others have as well, though they may not see any particular need to trumpet the fact.

"Not one", therefore, may be overstating what is at best an assumption.

Db

 

[dick_dastardly]

I have never understood the whole deal that you seem to find a lot with trading/traders that "I'm not willing to share any of my knowledge with anyone I deem an inferior trader to me!" What is that about, how does anyone learn ??? Thankfully, I don't rely on other people for help, but I am sure to help anyone who asks for it to the best of my ability.

I wonder if there are some that keep quiet because they don't want to share any of their knowledge with those they perceive as being superior.

dd

 

[grantx]

DD,

My attitude is, if it didn’t cost me anything (in terms of money or time) I’ll give it away.

Some spend years perfecting a successful system (I spent 6-months developing the Holy Grail – turned out a fake). Is it realistic to expect something like that to be handed out, gratis? You may as well ask for half their earnings.

Some are even too lazy to simply check an exchange web site for a contract size.

Grant.

 

[firewalker99]

Most try to be helpful with thousand of post talking the talk, But not one will off 4 hours or even one day of their time to trade in a live room to show others it can be done.

As you know I've posted dozens of live calls in the DOW 2007 thread over the last couple of months, which means entry, stop & exit. Not 10 or 15 minutes after the facts, but as live as one can expect to get on a BB. So have anothers, like yourself, Dinos,... and a couple of others. I doubt this will teach anybody how to trade though...

 

[nine]

I borrowed this from another board (have advised OP and will withdraw if he is unhappy). Its a variation on an old theme but I thought it was more perceptive than others I have read.

Cheers

Traders Prayer

Step One: Unconscious Incompetence.

This is the first step you take when starting to look into trading. you know that its a good way of making money because you've heard so many things about it and heard of so many millionaires.

Unfortunately, just like when you first desire to drive a car you think it will be easy - after all, how hard can it be?? - price either moves up or down - what's the big secret to that then - lets get cracking! Unfortunately, just as when you first take your place in front of a steering wheel you find very quickly that you haven't got the first clue about what you're trying to do. you take lots of trades and lots of risks. when you enter a trade it turns against you so you reverse and it turns again .. and again, and again. You try to turn around your losses by doubling up every time you trade - sometimes you'll get away with it but more often than not you will come away scathed and bruised Well this is stage one - you are totally oblivious to your incompetence at trading.Stage one can last for a week or two of trading but the market is usually swift and you move onto stage two.

Stage Two - Conscious Incompetence

Stage two is where you realize that there is more work involved in this and that you might actually have to work a few things out. You consciously realize that you are an incompetent trader - you don't have the skills or the insight to turn a regular profit. During this phase you will buy systems and e-books galore, read websites based everywhere from Russia to the Ukraine. and begin your search for the holy grail.

During this time you will be a system whore - you will flick from method to method day by day and week by week never sticking with one long enough to actually see if it does work. every time you came upon a new indicator you'll be ecstatic that this is the one that will make all the difference. You will test out automated systems on Meta-trader, you'll play with moving averages, Fibonacci lines, support & resistance, Pivots, Fractals, Divergence, DMI, ADX, and a hundred other things all in the vein hope that your 'magic system' starts today. you'll be a top and bottom picker, trying to find the exact point of reversal with your indicators and you'll find yourself chasing losing trades and even adding to them cos you are so sure you are right.

You'll go into the live chat room and see other traders making pips and you want to know why it's not you - you'll ask a million questions, some of which are so dumb that looking back you feel a bit silly. You'll then reach the point where you think all the ones who are calling pips after pips are liars - they cant be making that amount cos you've studied and you don't make that, you know as much as they do and they must be lying. but they're in there day after day and their account just grows whilst yours falls. You will be like a teenager - the traders that make money will freely give you advice but you're stubborn and think that you know best - you take no notice and over leverage your account even though everyone says you are mad to - but you know better. You'll consider following the calls that others make but even then it wont work so you try paying for signals from someone else - they don't work for you either.

This phase can last ages and ages - in fact in reality it can last well over a year - My own period lasted about 18 months. Eventually you do begin to come out of this phase. You've probably committed more time and money than you ever thought you would, lost 2 or 3 loaded accounts and all but given up maybe 3 or 4 times.



Then comes stage 3 Stage 3 -

The Eureka Moment Towards the end of stage two you begin to realize that it's not the system that is making the difference.

You realize that its actually possible to make money with a simple moving average and nothing else IF you can get your head and money management right You start to read books on the psychology of trading and identify with the characters portrayed in those books. Finally comes the eureka moment.

The eureka moment causes a new connection to be made in your brain. You suddenly realize that neither you, nor anyone else can accurately predict what the market will do in the next ten seconds, never mind the next 20 mins. You start to work just one system that you mould to your own way of trading, you're starting to get happy and you define your risk threshold. You start to take every trade that your 'edge' shows has a good probability of winning with.

When the trade turns bad you don't get angry or even because you know in your head that as you couldn't possibly predict it it isn't your fault - as soon as you realize that the trade is bad you close it .

The next trade will have higher odds of success cos you know your simple system works. You have realized in an instant that the trading game is about one thing - consistency of your 'edge' and your discipline to take all the trades no matter what. You learn about proper money management and leverage - risk of account etc etc - and this time it actually soaks in and you think back to those who advised the same thing a year ago with a smile

You weren't ready then, but you are now. The eureka moment came the moment that you truly accepted that you cannot predict the market.

Then comes stage four Stage 4 -

Conscious Competence Ok, now you are making trades whenever your system tells you to. You take losses just as easily as you take wins You now let your winners run to their conclusion fully accepting the risk and knowing that your system makes more money than it loses and when you're on a loser you close it swiftly with little pain to your account

You are now at a point where you break even most of the time - day in day out, you will have weeks where you make 100 pips a weeks where you lose 100 pips - generally you are breaking even and not losing money.

You are now conscious of the fact that you are making calls that are generally good and you are getting respect from other traders as you chat the day away. You still have to work at it and think about your trades but as this continues you begin to make more money than you lose consistently. You'll start the day on a 20 pip win, take a 35 pip loss and have no feelings that you've given those pips back because you know that it will come back again. You will now begin to make consistent pips week in and week out 25 pips one week, 50 the next and so on. This lasts about 6 months

Then comes Stage Five Stage Five - Unconscious Competence Now were cooking - just like driving a car, every day you get in your seat and trade - you do everything now on an unconscious level.

You are running on autopilot. You start to pick the really big trades and getting 100 pips in a day is becoming quite normal to you. This is trading utopia - you have mastered your emotions and you are now a trader with a rapidly growing account. You're a star in the trading chat room and people listen to what you say. you recognize yourself in their questions from about two years ago.

You pass on your advice but you know most of it is futile cos they're teenagers - some of them will get to where you are - some will do it fast and others will be slower - literally dozens and dozens will never get past stage two but a few will. Trading is no longer exciting - in fact it's probably boring you to bits - like everything in life when you get good at it or do it for your job - it gets boring - you're doing your job and that's that.

You can now say with your head held high "I'm a currency trader"

 

[damianoakley]

Hi All,

Not posted for a while, but being browsing the boards now and then with interest.

There are people on this board who do make money from trading, but you'll find that most of them do not waste their time getting drawn into the various arguments and heated debates that can flare up!

One of the reasons I have not posted for a while is because I grew tired of seeing post after post get out of hand, but things seem to have settled down again now so I'll dip back in again.

To answer the original thread-starter, I would say that the traders on this board who do trade professionally tend to get on with trading, rather than spending time composing elaborate posts on this board.

Personally, I like to try to achieve a balance between the two, but I have to say that I've enjoyed my break!

Hope to start posting regularly again soon.


Thanks

Damian

 

[combotrader]

Ritchie

Do you think you have touched a nerve here ?

Many members have come out to give their version of how and why they trade - and they are doing it for a reason. The reason is that they do make money. And they are answering you back. In fact, I would say they have been rather restrained.

This is a very useful website. By lurking there is much to learn. By participating you can learn even more. But, I`ll cut the c***p and get to the point.

FOrget about making money. Trash what you have learnt so far. Learn 2 things and you will get your yacht et all : 1) Risk and 2) Psychology. Winning systems are a dime to the dozen, the holy grail is YOU.

There is a member here called Grey 1. CLick on the icon of his name and go to all threads by him. Read them. The thing about Grey 1 is that although quantitative in his approach - he ends up talking about cycles and flows in the market - the day you understand this is the day you have made it.

Understanding risk is what makes a trader great - not chasing profits.
Your mentality is what will make holding a 100 point trade go to 1000 - not your great system.

And lastly - your capital. IMHO - the more you have the better. If you want to earn a living, have in excess of 100-250K GBP. Hardly any have that - and for small traders like us, this is one of the main issues.

 

[temptrader]

banning new_trader is not going to solve anything

In fact, why are you here new_trader? You and "Soccy" boy can stay where you are at the other site. I know he's just dying to come back though:cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

I know you're still watching this thread (and Albert's probably copying bits of it so your group can mock us and call us monkeys) but I have been thinking about what the old boy was saying: merit, ability and conduct. I'm afraid I have to tell you that ability alone is all that matters in this game. You had jacinto go over to your site and called you lot a bunch of w***ers to which Skimbleshanks replied that she has to yet see whether he has merit or conduct. WTF has that got to do with anything, eh?

Merit and conduct only applies if you want, and genuinely want, to be on friendly, courteous terms with someone, someone who you respect and admire. It gets a bit weird that you are doing this if it is because you want something from them, then it can become sleazy or slimy, but by that stage the person in question can probably see it a mile off unless he's seriously socially retarded.

On the latter point I confirm how a pleasant conversation with Mr Marcus I had some time ago. He was most gracious and he did not have the nasty, vicious demeanor that Albert had. At no time during the 45 minutes did he make me feel that I was some desperate low life after his "secrets", some kind of vicious idea that Albert perpetuated with some of his comments on other threads when asked about "sharing".

Now onto the thread: yes there are people making money from trading. No, they probably don't have to teach seminars, give newsletters, write books etc. . . because that would just waste their time, and why the hell would you want to do all that for if you are making money trading? The reason why they don't let people in is because it would waste their time, explaining things over, and over, and over, and over again, and it gets a bit tedious and tiring if you know what I mean. You asking what you are asking Mitch (especially about all your talk of yachts, sexy nubile girls, fast cars, expensive mansions) shows to me your immaturity: It would be like me, someone who likes tennis but is utterly rubbish at it, going over to Roger Federer and asking how I can be as good as him. What would you think that the great man would say?

And as regards having these seriously successful traders want to help you: All I ask is WHY? Would you go out in the streets, go up to any stranger and say: "hey, lets be friends"? There are a few things I agree with Albert, and that is no one can do the work for you, and believe me in this game there is a horrendous amount of work involved. By mentioning the "Yachts. sexy women etc. . ." it seems to me that you just want the rewards now, and we have the advertisers/media to blame for this instant gratification society. Things have been made easier to maximize profits for the companies that are selling these services/products, and this instant gratification spills over on our expectations of other areas and taints the real picture.

For myself I mention the posts of Skimbleshanks having a serious effect on me, and finally Mr Marcus's posts got me to where I am today. That's what worked for me, and there are some full time traders who stay in the game here, (laptop1, grey1, Trader333 etc. . . ) but they only can give you what they can, and no more.

 

[trader_dante]

And lastly - your capital. IMHO - the more you have the better. If you want to earn a living, have in excess of 100-250K GBP. Hardly any have that - and for small traders like us, this is one of the main issues.

If you're a good trader I don't think you even need 1% of that to get rich.

 

[combotrader]

Maybe not for you TD, but for someone starting out with 1K/Sbetting/daytrading its a recipe for disaster.

Still havent got to the videos but will soon...cheers

Shamik.

 

[mbps]

It's all in your mind

It's all in your mind and I can prove it. A winning system is simply a system that works with your mindset and what you believe works and can trust. Every trader on this board could easily lose consistently every day by just taking guessing trades due to human natures fear and greed in everyones mind. So if it is possible to lose consistently everyday, then it is with 100% assurity to be possible to also make profits everyday consistently just by doing the opposite of what you did to lose. Unfortunately that is easier said than done and for those traders who have managed to turn around their fear and greed, profits will roll in for them as easily as losses roll in for everyone else.

 

[ceydababy]

Maybe not for you TD, but for someone starting out with 1K/Sbetting/daytrading its a recipe for disaster.

Still havent got to the videos but will soon...cheers

Shamik.

Sorry Shamik. Disagree with this....Problems arise when people fully leverage themselves with the £1k on account, what I mean by this is load themselves up so in two trades they have blown the lot Weather you could make a living from such a small amount I'm not sure. However, it is perfectly possible to turn this small amount of money in to a much larger sum, should you be disciplined and approach trading in a sensible manner.

 

[firewalker99]

So if it is possible to lose consistently everyday, then it is with 100% assurity to be possible to also make profits everyday consistently just by doing the opposite of what you did to lose. Unfortunately that is easier said than done and for those traders who have managed to turn around their fear and greed, profits will roll in for them as easily as losses roll in for everyone else.

I beg to differ. Doing exactly the opposite of what you did won't make you money neither.

Example:
Suppose my strategy is going long each day on a (clearly defined unambigious) signal, with stop 5 points and target 10 points... my win rate is only 25% so I lose money (theoretically I would need a win rate of 33,33...% not deducting commissions).

So, which if the following is the "opposite"?

(1) I short on each of these signals with a stop of 10 points and a target of 5 points.
(2) I short on each of these signals with a stop of 5 points and a target of 10 points.
(3) I go long on each of these signals with a stop of 10 points and a target of 5 points.

The exact opposite is (1) in my view. Does this mean I will now all of a sudden have a 75% win rate? You have no way of knowing that. Nor does that mean this strategy will turn out to be profitable.

If you think (2) is the opposite, than what if the reason your original strategy failed was because your stop was 1 point too small, and the market reversed and rallied each time after that? Doing the exact opposite of the original strategy, will definitely not turn you into a profitable trader overnight.

I'm sure you can think of some examples for yourself... the opposite of losing might be winning. But reversing or mirroring your trades won't make you profitable.

 

[Profitaker]

Return on capital %

And lastly - your capital. IMHO - the more you have the better. If you want to earn a living, have in excess of 100-250K GBP. Hardly any have that - and for small traders like us, this is one of the main issues.

If you're a good trader I don't think you even need 1% of that to get rich.

It has to depend on what exactly you mean by a living. For some it’s £ 20k / year, for others it’s £ 100k / year, and so on. A £ 20k return from a £ 250k pot should be easily achievable, and virtually riskless. Whereas a £ 100k return from a £ 100k pot would entail taking on massive risk and eventually (but surely) will result in wipe-out.

Bottom line, is your £ return as a percentage % of capital deployed. That's what matters.

 

[nine]

It has to depend on what exactly you mean by a living. For some it’s £ 20k / year, for others it’s £ 100k / year, and so on. A £ 20k return from a £ 250k pot should be easily achievable, and virtually riskless. Whereas a £ 100k return from a £ 100k pot would entail taking on massive risk and eventually (but surely) will result in wipe-out.

Bottom line, is your £ return as a percentage % of capital deployed. That's what matters.

100% of 100k per year doesn't need to involve a high risk of ruin (I must start a thread on this). Frequency of trading is one key to this statement. A high win ratio is a good supporting factor.

If we say its a living version (so cumulative effects) then 100k pa = 2k per week or 0.4k per day.

If you can take 4 trades per day on average then you have to earn 0.1k per trade.
If you trade a system with 66% wins and 1.5x the loss per win then you have to risk about 0.12k per trade to earn 0.1k per trade.

So each trade is risking not 1% of capital but 0.12% of capital.

I trade a strategy that gives me over 3 trades per day average in each of 3 independent markets (two different national stock index futures that are largely independent for my strategy and one currency that is liquid and has good moves during my trading periods).

Risk of ruin is extremely low.