Mr. Charts
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I rather think Skim comes over as being a very sophisticated person.
Salty Gibbon
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Bit confused here TrendSignal. Why is £20k not enough and why do you need £100k ? Are you saying that the £100k includes living costs for a certain period or is the £100k purely for trading purposes ? If so, why do you need so much when you usually get 4:1 margin anyway.
Salty Gibbon
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Didn't see your last comment
Just done a bit of computing about minimum amount of money to survive. I have a wife and 2 teenaged kids, dog, cat, mortgage etc.
Assuming reasonable amounts for utilities and servicing continuing financial commitments ( life insurance policies etc... ) my minimum required amount is just shy of £1700 per month.
Assuming reasonable amounts for utilities and servicing continuing financial commitments ( life insurance policies etc... ) my minimum required amount is just shy of £1700 per month.
frugi
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Off topic frugal patronising ramble
What an excellent thread. Not much to add but I must tear myself away from pointless chart scrutiny.
With the right attitude a great deal of pleasure can be taken from saving money and it certainly does not automatically follow that one's quality of life need be compromised in the slightest - indeed the opposite is often true.
Treat it like a game or an an amusing challenge as Skim wisely says. Either we can be tainted by the advertisers' devious craft, rendered insecure by the continual barrage of glossy wares and ready to be duped into believing that our worth in the world is measured by the pile of so-called desirable/ fashionable items we can amass, or we can choose to easily escape their material tyranny. I do not, incidentally, speak as a Marxist! The self confidence gained from, for example, trading for oneself will greatly outweigh any self esteem issues arising from not having the correct type of car with which to impress the neighbours. I may jest a little, but I often have the horrible feeling that there are folk about who would be more concerned by wearing last season's shoes in public than by the plight of the Palestinians, for instance. How did this happen? Anyway...
Join Costco or similar wholesaler and pity the poor people insisting on brand name toilet roll, washing powder, processed chemical-rich rubbish ready meals and cat food in Sainsbury's for four times the price that they need to pay. Don't buy a sarnie and OJ from Marksies every day and save yourself £120 a month. Grow some organic fruit and veg, costs next to nowt and will probably extend your life. Buy lots of T shirts in Asda for £3 and perhaps once or twice a year treat yourself to a Prada shirt, if clothes are your thing. Of course you dislike fashion with a passion, but this does not preclude a love of clothes.
But laugh at the people willing to pay an extra £15 for a T-shirt because it has a corporate logo splashed on the front of it (such as fcuk or Polo)? This surely proves little more to the world than that you are gullible enough to pay an extra £15 in order to provide free advertising for the company from whom you bought it. The £15 certainly doesn't pay for improved material or production quality, at least not since the canny folk flogging these goods realised that the right logo is infinitely more important to the average consumer than the actual item it is stamped on. The delicious irony is that the people who buy these price-inflated horrors are specifically trying to send out signals of superior style, sense, and sartorial know-how; yet they succeed in achieving nearly the opposite.
Keep the same mobile for more than 6 minutes. Patronise charity shops (and I don't mean adopt a supercilious tone with the assistant). Indulge your interests - we all have one or two - with some of the money saved. A frugal life need not be an ascetic one.
But be sure to invest in quality items, stuff that you really want to last for years, when it matters. You can't scrimp on everything or you will simply pay more in the future. Furniture, white goods, PCs, walking boots, whatever - often saving here is a false economy.
I'm afraid that's still me in fast lane Skim, but I'm not late for an appointment or enraged by the brown Volvo with apparent speed limiter set at 69mph and no indicators lurching in front of me: I just really enjoy driving, occasionally fast when conditions allow. Cars are my thing. A speedy and considerate journey leaves time to disembark on the odd grassy knoll and have a picnic (mmm send us some asparagus n hollandaise please Skim!) or see more of my friends, for instance.
Hmmm cars, that reminds me. When a bunch of Renault owners were recently asked to describe the characteristics of their Clio did they answer as you'd expect with "thirsty in town" or "a touch too much understeer" or "the kids all fit in the back"? No, did they hell - they started describing the girl in the ad, Nicole, as in "flighty, independent, sexy etc." What on earth is going on here? It's a car for god's sake, not a lady or an aspiration, and as such is designed primarily for driving, not indicating to the public what sort of person you think you are by choosing to buy one (clearly a deluded idiot if you bought it purely on the strength of the adverts).
When I worked for Majestic Wine one of our customers was a fella who drove a battered K reg VW Polo and did indeed dress like Worzel Gummage. In fact the first time he came into the store my slightly snobbish manager was a little concerned that he might be about to relieve us of a few bottles. A brief chat with him revealed an immense passion for wine and a complete lack of pretension. An hour or two later he departed with about £4000 worth of extremely fine wine and the old millionaire cliche was confirmed in style! He paid cash of course as he didn't own a credit card. What no platinum card to impress the lowly shop assistants you say? Very refreshing.
How did he become a millionaire? He claims it was 90% looking after what he spent and only 10% actually earning and saving. I'd like to think that was true, though I was of course tempted to ask "percentage of what?" 🙂
As I write this my system enjoys its sixth consecutive loss and it doesn't trouble me in the slightest. If I still believed I needed 20k min a year to live on I bet I'd be tinkering with the variables and ensuring that I missed the next big trend on which its positive expectancy depends! As it is I am happy to keep learning, trading, designing systems etc. virtually safe in the knowledge that I will always be able to pay the bills, if not perhaps dine at Brio every night. Admittedly we have no plans for kids and I am lucky enough to own most of my flat, but whatever position one is in it is amzing how much can be saved just by thinking and perhaps breaking a few subconscious habits.
Sorry this is not helpful hopefull, but the thread intrigued me.
What an excellent thread. Not much to add but I must tear myself away from pointless chart scrutiny.
With the right attitude a great deal of pleasure can be taken from saving money and it certainly does not automatically follow that one's quality of life need be compromised in the slightest - indeed the opposite is often true.
Treat it like a game or an an amusing challenge as Skim wisely says. Either we can be tainted by the advertisers' devious craft, rendered insecure by the continual barrage of glossy wares and ready to be duped into believing that our worth in the world is measured by the pile of so-called desirable/ fashionable items we can amass, or we can choose to easily escape their material tyranny. I do not, incidentally, speak as a Marxist! The self confidence gained from, for example, trading for oneself will greatly outweigh any self esteem issues arising from not having the correct type of car with which to impress the neighbours. I may jest a little, but I often have the horrible feeling that there are folk about who would be more concerned by wearing last season's shoes in public than by the plight of the Palestinians, for instance. How did this happen? Anyway...
Join Costco or similar wholesaler and pity the poor people insisting on brand name toilet roll, washing powder, processed chemical-rich rubbish ready meals and cat food in Sainsbury's for four times the price that they need to pay. Don't buy a sarnie and OJ from Marksies every day and save yourself £120 a month. Grow some organic fruit and veg, costs next to nowt and will probably extend your life. Buy lots of T shirts in Asda for £3 and perhaps once or twice a year treat yourself to a Prada shirt, if clothes are your thing. Of course you dislike fashion with a passion, but this does not preclude a love of clothes.
But laugh at the people willing to pay an extra £15 for a T-shirt because it has a corporate logo splashed on the front of it (such as fcuk or Polo)? This surely proves little more to the world than that you are gullible enough to pay an extra £15 in order to provide free advertising for the company from whom you bought it. The £15 certainly doesn't pay for improved material or production quality, at least not since the canny folk flogging these goods realised that the right logo is infinitely more important to the average consumer than the actual item it is stamped on. The delicious irony is that the people who buy these price-inflated horrors are specifically trying to send out signals of superior style, sense, and sartorial know-how; yet they succeed in achieving nearly the opposite.
Keep the same mobile for more than 6 minutes. Patronise charity shops (and I don't mean adopt a supercilious tone with the assistant). Indulge your interests - we all have one or two - with some of the money saved. A frugal life need not be an ascetic one.
But be sure to invest in quality items, stuff that you really want to last for years, when it matters. You can't scrimp on everything or you will simply pay more in the future. Furniture, white goods, PCs, walking boots, whatever - often saving here is a false economy.
I'm afraid that's still me in fast lane Skim, but I'm not late for an appointment or enraged by the brown Volvo with apparent speed limiter set at 69mph and no indicators lurching in front of me: I just really enjoy driving, occasionally fast when conditions allow. Cars are my thing. A speedy and considerate journey leaves time to disembark on the odd grassy knoll and have a picnic (mmm send us some asparagus n hollandaise please Skim!) or see more of my friends, for instance.
Hmmm cars, that reminds me. When a bunch of Renault owners were recently asked to describe the characteristics of their Clio did they answer as you'd expect with "thirsty in town" or "a touch too much understeer" or "the kids all fit in the back"? No, did they hell - they started describing the girl in the ad, Nicole, as in "flighty, independent, sexy etc." What on earth is going on here? It's a car for god's sake, not a lady or an aspiration, and as such is designed primarily for driving, not indicating to the public what sort of person you think you are by choosing to buy one (clearly a deluded idiot if you bought it purely on the strength of the adverts).
When I worked for Majestic Wine one of our customers was a fella who drove a battered K reg VW Polo and did indeed dress like Worzel Gummage. In fact the first time he came into the store my slightly snobbish manager was a little concerned that he might be about to relieve us of a few bottles. A brief chat with him revealed an immense passion for wine and a complete lack of pretension. An hour or two later he departed with about £4000 worth of extremely fine wine and the old millionaire cliche was confirmed in style! He paid cash of course as he didn't own a credit card. What no platinum card to impress the lowly shop assistants you say? Very refreshing.
How did he become a millionaire? He claims it was 90% looking after what he spent and only 10% actually earning and saving. I'd like to think that was true, though I was of course tempted to ask "percentage of what?" 🙂
As I write this my system enjoys its sixth consecutive loss and it doesn't trouble me in the slightest. If I still believed I needed 20k min a year to live on I bet I'd be tinkering with the variables and ensuring that I missed the next big trend on which its positive expectancy depends! As it is I am happy to keep learning, trading, designing systems etc. virtually safe in the knowledge that I will always be able to pay the bills, if not perhaps dine at Brio every night. Admittedly we have no plans for kids and I am lucky enough to own most of my flat, but whatever position one is in it is amzing how much can be saved just by thinking and perhaps breaking a few subconscious habits.
Sorry this is not helpful hopefull, but the thread intrigued me.
Salty Gibbon
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I admire your attitude but shouldn't you spend a little more time taking a hard look at your system than writing such long treatises on trivia ? Lol
Just checked in for an update - and am delighted that we still have an active thread with so much useful advice and guidance..
and you know what..now that the initial shock has worn off from that call yesterday evening things really don't seem that bad,its liberating in many ways.
I am going to be back in tomorrow morning in the meantime it's time to take a break from thinking !
At the risk of repetition I would like to thank each and every individual who has taken a moment of their day to offer so much and believe me it has made a difference.A huge difference.
Good night and good trading.
H
and you know what..now that the initial shock has worn off from that call yesterday evening things really don't seem that bad,its liberating in many ways.
I am going to be back in tomorrow morning in the meantime it's time to take a break from thinking !
At the risk of repetition I would like to thank each and every individual who has taken a moment of their day to offer so much and believe me it has made a difference.A huge difference.
Good night and good trading.
H
I dont get it. So why do you guys trade if you like slumming it so much?
I'm not saying that a 5 star hotel is better than camping - because thats a different type of activity. Im talking about camping in Bogna v camping in Andes or B&B in Weston-Super-Mare v 5 star in Tropics
I'm not saying that a 5 star hotel is better than camping - because thats a different type of activity. Im talking about camping in Bogna v camping in Andes or B&B in Weston-Super-Mare v 5 star in Tropics
frugi
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I'm not saying I would object to a larger salary, just that my quality of life does not depend on it. I trade simply because I love the independence, the hours, the psychological rigour and the intellectual challenge that it presents. The game brings its own reward, the money is just the score, to resort to another cliche. I admit I am trying to build up a pot so that I will save and earn more for/in the future, and e.g be able to move to a place in the country with more space and privacy, but this is not my main reason for trading.
Of course there is a level of income below which life becomes very unpleasant: Skim and I are merely saying that the level may be much lower than your initial assessment would lead you to believe.
Of course there is a level of income below which life becomes very unpleasant: Skim and I are merely saying that the level may be much lower than your initial assessment would lead you to believe.
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I picked a neighbour up from the airport this morning who had been on holiday trekking in Iran (we all tend to take it in turns to ferry each other to the airport as it saves on 14 days of parking charges), and for my troubles I was given a 1kg box of fresh Iranian dates and a 1kg box of roasted salted pistachio nuts (I think the cost to him was the equivalent of peanuts in local currency). The dates and nuts are absolutely huge - bigger than anything I've seen for sale in the shops.
This morning I strolled along the river bank, and sowed runner beans (saved from last year) which will grow up the pergola and provide me with beans all summer.
This afternoon I've taken 5.5 pts per contract traded on ES (one trade), and 43 points on the Dow (one trade).
This evening I've feasted on asparagus (another neighbour reckoned I was not eating enough of his veggies, so left some on the doorstep, and I hadn't the heart to say that I'd had asparagus the night before!), followed by organic pizza with rocket and Parma ham, and salad, and for dessert we had fresh dates. It was all scrumptious.
Now that is really what life should be like - it's heaven on earth, when you allow it to.
This morning I strolled along the river bank, and sowed runner beans (saved from last year) which will grow up the pergola and provide me with beans all summer.
This afternoon I've taken 5.5 pts per contract traded on ES (one trade), and 43 points on the Dow (one trade).
This evening I've feasted on asparagus (another neighbour reckoned I was not eating enough of his veggies, so left some on the doorstep, and I hadn't the heart to say that I'd had asparagus the night before!), followed by organic pizza with rocket and Parma ham, and salad, and for dessert we had fresh dates. It was all scrumptious.
Now that is really what life should be like - it's heaven on earth, when you allow it to.
Good for you Skim, it's interesting how you manage to find so much happiness in life without the need of money (which I'm sure you have plenty). I would think that you have a different idea of happiness, most peoples is being very rich, having 10 mansions worth 10 million each, 10 porsches, etc - while you have peace and quiet no stress and live much more better than the super billionares.
F
ford
No one my ages gives a damn, but as far as I'm concerned a penny saved is a penny earned.
:cheesy:
Salty Gibbon
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Skim, in keeping with the requirements of many members on this site, would you be so kind as to produce till receipts for items of food purchased please.
Documentary evidence is crucial as we all know.
Documentary evidence is crucial as we all know.
growltiger
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I am not saying don't do it, but if you do, it is essential to downsize the house rather than increase leverage by taking out a bigger mortgage. And if either you or Mrs H could generate enough employment income to pay the basic bills, that would also be a plus. Otherwise, you could easily be looking in 12 months' time at a balance sheet made up of a £400k house and £200k of debt, which you are not able to service. There seems little doubt that base rates will be 5.5 to 6 per cent by summer, and when Gordon Brown has stirred himself to make a statement about the soundness of the house market, you can be certain it is on the skids. I wish it were otherwise.
LittleWhiteBull
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Well well well Ilia King
"-- *lose your house wife* if it were only that good "
Your reply to me I believe, on the 'Injuries' thread when I suggested a lifestyle similar to Skim's!
Seems you've changed your mind somewhat - well done! Much better for you.
To Hopefull
Not got enough experience of trading to advise you on that count but it sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind to give it a go anyway.
Two things I have to contribute:
1) A remortgage on interest only for say £25k costs around £100 pm. I often hear Traders talk casually about spending in excess of this on subscriptions to charting software, trading platforms etc. So the £100 is just another overhead. Your property has already increased much more than you could ever have probably imagined and will probably continue to do so - you will be able to pay off the £25k when and if you sell the house - it is not going to bankrupt you.
2) Lifestyle change is indeed much easier than most people think and I echo what shimbleshanks/Bramble and others have contributed on that score. We chucked everything in by selling a house in Surrey 6 years ago for a derelict barn & land in Devon, gave up 2 well paid jobs for no jobs & little money but we enjoyed ourselves & survived (indeed improved our lot), that's what it's about - don't hold back on your dreams. People said we shouldn't do it - thank god we didn't listen.
You will undoubtedly make it work because you are the sort of person to consider/plan and think about what you are doing. Even if the trading doesn't pay enough it doesn't sound like you're the sort of person to take too big a chance and if you need to go back to work you no doubt will.
And Wives do NOT always think of themselves and the kids when money is tight - what rubbish. As SKim has already proved, women can enjoy being resourceful and we don't all care about material things, nor do kids - give them the cardboard box the play station came in - they're just as happy (well until they see the play station!). It sounds like you have support there anyway.
Very good luck to you!
LWB
"-- *lose your house wife* if it were only that good "
Your reply to me I believe, on the 'Injuries' thread when I suggested a lifestyle similar to Skim's!
Seems you've changed your mind somewhat - well done! Much better for you.
To Hopefull
Not got enough experience of trading to advise you on that count but it sounds like you've pretty much made up your mind to give it a go anyway.
Two things I have to contribute:
1) A remortgage on interest only for say £25k costs around £100 pm. I often hear Traders talk casually about spending in excess of this on subscriptions to charting software, trading platforms etc. So the £100 is just another overhead. Your property has already increased much more than you could ever have probably imagined and will probably continue to do so - you will be able to pay off the £25k when and if you sell the house - it is not going to bankrupt you.
2) Lifestyle change is indeed much easier than most people think and I echo what shimbleshanks/Bramble and others have contributed on that score. We chucked everything in by selling a house in Surrey 6 years ago for a derelict barn & land in Devon, gave up 2 well paid jobs for no jobs & little money but we enjoyed ourselves & survived (indeed improved our lot), that's what it's about - don't hold back on your dreams. People said we shouldn't do it - thank god we didn't listen.
You will undoubtedly make it work because you are the sort of person to consider/plan and think about what you are doing. Even if the trading doesn't pay enough it doesn't sound like you're the sort of person to take too big a chance and if you need to go back to work you no doubt will.
And Wives do NOT always think of themselves and the kids when money is tight - what rubbish. As SKim has already proved, women can enjoy being resourceful and we don't all care about material things, nor do kids - give them the cardboard box the play station came in - they're just as happy (well until they see the play station!). It sounds like you have support there anyway.
Very good luck to you!
LWB
They say that it's the things you don't do in life are the things that you regret rather than the things you do.
I'd give it a go as circumstances have brought you to this point. But I think your right in that you should have a 'stop loss'. I was brought up to believe that 'one door closes and another one opens'.
I would imagine you would have no choice but to downsize the house as I don't know who would offer you an increased mortgage with no proof of income.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
This is a great thread and very thought provocing.
I'd give it a go as circumstances have brought you to this point. But I think your right in that you should have a 'stop loss'. I was brought up to believe that 'one door closes and another one opens'.
I would imagine you would have no choice but to downsize the house as I don't know who would offer you an increased mortgage with no proof of income.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
This is a great thread and very thought provocing.
