Crime and punishment

[tomorton]

We actually have some common ground. There are injustices in the UK which should be put right. There are corruptions within the UK's political / judicial system which should be eliminated.

Your conclusion is that the government should put these right. My view is not far away - but it starts from the view that the government should develop the structure such these "aberrations" are not worthwhile pursuing or sustaining.

So far our differences are minor but here's where the big divergence comes in between left and right thinking. Although both are sceptical of the kindly benevolence of established government and its institutions, the leftist solution is more government with greater powers to constrain what individuals can do.

Don't you see an irony between your diagnosis and your prescribed cure?

Don't you find it odd to say that a system in which the state apparatus has had such unassailed power from your point of view that it has been able to rig the system for its own benefits could be cured by setting up another state apparatus with even more power?

How would putting new people at the top of the pyramid will make things better for the people lower down? If the people at the bottom are the victims as a result of having too little power, how would giving more power to other people help them?

 

[tomorton]

"Claimed and Shamed" - great fun, BBC1.

 

[Signalcalc]

BAU

Terrifying array of 50 deadly weapons seized in London in TWO WEEKS
https://dailym.ai/2PUgjAn

 

[Pat494]

Here is the current appalling situation in Hartlepool.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...crimes-on-facebook/ar-BBPVBVY?ocid=spartanntp

C'mon politicians - you useless t0ssers.

 

[Signalcalc]

Here is the current appalling situation in Hartlepool.



https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...crimes-on-facebook/ar-BBPVBVY?ocid=spartanntp



C'mon politicians - you useless t0ssers.

You can see how easy it is for gangs to form and seize control of areas when local populations call for support. The local hardmen get involved, NI style justice takes over, both barrels and many kneecaps lost.

If these areas also have crime based on religious segregation then who knows what the long term outcome could be, a mixture of France and NI ? Not inconceivable!

 

[Pat494]

You can see how easy it is for gangs to form and seize control of areas when local populations call for support. The local hardmen get involved, NI style justice takes over, both barrels and many kneecaps lost.

If these areas also have crime based on religious segregation then who knows what the long term outcome could be, a mixture of France and NI ? Not inconceivable!

The politicians waste billions on submarines. fighter bomber planes, gifts to 3rd world countries etc. and then bleat there isn't enough money.

 

[tomorton]

The politicians waste billions on submarines. fighter bomber planes, gifts to 3rd world countries etc. and then bleat there isn't enough money.

At the risk of being cynical, what are the local politicians expected to do?

The MP, Council and police commissioner for Hartlepool are all Labour. This can be regarded as in every sense a Labour core area and has been for decades.

Labour's national policy on policing is simply to stop Tory police cuts. Simple as that. Sounds more like its about the Tories than its about the police.

However, suppose the MP, Leader of the Council and the PCC all walk into the Chief Constable's office and thrash out an effective policing policy and a year later crime in Hartlepool is the lowest in England? What is Labour HQ going to say to those three guys? -

"You've done a great job, here's a medal!"?

or

"You've reduced crime in one small town which is a safe seat for us anyway and you've given the conservatives a banner to wave to show their police cuts don't cause crime to rise. You're fired!"?

I can only feel sorry for the people in the town.

 

[Pat494]

Bring back the birch and stocks and the whole problem would be solved in weeks.

 

[Signalcalc]

Bring back the birch and stocks and the whole problem would be solved in weeks.

I think that is included in the report, vigilante justice just getting going, which crime anti-crime boss will rule in the future.

What about police intelligence, not just boots on the ground, but back room analysts tapping in numbers on a computer to produce a report for the higher ups to determine how to allocate resource.

Oops, you need boots on the ground as well to collect that raw data, otherwise there ain’t no intelligence and no reports.

A rather large policing gap on the open crime market ripe for any organised criminals to take advantage of.....

A place ready for a civil war to start, imagine that!

It’s OK though the military and police have new initiatives to work together, armed and dangerous, just don’t need them turning up to burglaries, petty thefts and rape though, would be a bit overkill.

 

[Signalcalc]

At the risk of being cynical, what are the local politicians expected to do?



The MP, Council and police commissioner for Hartlepool are all Labour. This can be regarded as in every sense a Labour core area and has been for decades.



Labour's national policy on policing is simply to stop Tory police cuts. Simple as that. Sounds more like its about the Tories than its about the police.



However, suppose the MP, Leader of the Council and the PCC all walk into the Chief Constable's office and thrash out an effective policing policy and a year later crime in Hartlepool is the lowest in England? What is Labour HQ going to say to those three guys? -



"You've done a great job, here's a medal!"?



or



"You've reduced crime in one small town which is a safe seat for us anyway and you've given the conservatives a banner to wave to show their police cuts don't cause crime to rise. You're fired!"?



I can only feel sorry for the people in the town.

Exactly, you can be free from risk as long as you vote for......

Problem for politicians is if the voting population are wise enough to see through the b”llsh1t. At least the liocal population can make their own risk assessments, once informed.

 

[tomorton]

Exactly, you can be free from risk as long as you vote for......

Problem for politicians is if the voting population are wise enough to see through the b”llsh1t. At least the liocal population can make their own risk assessments, once informed.

Some voters have taken the option of employing their own street security patrols. This has been quietly growing for several years but it is likely going to mushroom in the UK in the near future.

The police have only themselves to blame if they become effectively prosecutors rather than responders. But then again, the police should not be seen as the most important stakeholders in the crime and justice debate.

 

[Atilla]

At the risk of being cynical, what are the local politicians expected to do?

The MP, Council and police commissioner for Hartlepool are all Labour. This can be regarded as in every sense a Labour core area and has been for decades.

Labour's national policy on policing is simply to stop Tory police cuts. Simple as that. Sounds more like its about the Tories than its about the police.

However, suppose the MP, Leader of the Council and the PCC all walk into the Chief Constable's office and thrash out an effective policing policy and a year later crime in Hartlepool is the lowest in England? What is Labour HQ going to say to those three guys? -

"You've done a great job, here's a medal!"?

or

"You've reduced crime in one small town which is a safe seat for us anyway and you've given the conservatives a banner to wave to show their police cuts don't cause crime to rise. You're fired!"?

I can only feel sorry for the people in the town.

There is a flaw in your argument Tom and once again it's all about me me me with you and not about the national state of the UK.



Police funding fell from 2010/11 to 2018/19
That’s according to estimates compiled by the National Audit Office. Overall funding fell by 19%, taking inflation into account. That compares to a 31% increase in funding between 2000/01 and 2010/11.

That 19% isn’t what the government itself has reduced the budget by. Direct government funding has fallen by 30% over the same period. Most of the police budget comes from central government, but forces can also raise money locally via council taxes and this pot increased over the period. That’s why, overall, it’s a 19% loss of funding.

This varies a lot locally. That 19% average ranges from an 11% fall in Surrey police force to a 25% fall in Northumbria. This is mainly because some forces, like Northumbria, rely more heavily on government grants and don’t raise as much locally. Surrey, by contrast, was one of four police forces to raise more money locally than from the government this year.


Poor areas where there isn't many or well paid jobs, coupled with low business units lead to poor local governments.

So if an area cannot raise funding via local government ie council tax or business rates and central government cuts police funding, you have the makings of a perfect climate for rise in crime.

People don't have jobs, don't have much to do but drink and play up.


All those poor Northerners will have to come down South looking for work.


You are a pure capitalist I know but if police funding is cut and local authority can't raise necessary funding to deal with social issues, what do you advice citizens to do?

 

[tomorton]

There is a flaw in your argument Tom and once again it's all about me me me with you and not about the national state of the UK.



Police funding fell from 2010/11 to 2018/19
That’s according to estimates compiled by the National Audit Office. Overall funding fell by 19%, taking inflation into account. That compares to a 31% increase in funding between 2000/01 and 2010/11.

That 19% isn’t what the government itself has reduced the budget by. Direct government funding has fallen by 30% over the same period. Most of the police budget comes from central government, but forces can also raise money locally via council taxes and this pot increased over the period. That’s why, overall, it’s a 19% loss of funding.

This varies a lot locally. That 19% average ranges from an 11% fall in Surrey police force to a 25% fall in Northumbria. This is mainly because some forces, like Northumbria, rely more heavily on government grants and don’t raise as much locally. Surrey, by contrast, was one of four police forces to raise more money locally than from the government this year.


Poor areas where there isn't many or well paid jobs, coupled with low business units lead to poor local governments.

So if an area cannot raise funding via local government ie council tax or business rates and central government cuts police funding, you have the makings of a perfect climate for rise in crime.

People don't have jobs, don't have much to do but drink and play up.


All those poor Northerners will have to come down South looking for work.


You are a pure capitalist I know but if police funding is cut and local authority can't raise necessary funding to deal with social issues, what do you advice citizens to do?

My view is that inadequate police funding leads absolutely to an increase in crime.

My advice to the residents is to not put faith in local Labour political help because it is in the electoral interests of these politicians to let the funding cuts have as powerful an effect as possible through public dissatisfaction with crime rates, police failings and austerity in general.

 

[tomorton]

Atilla, I keep saying we have common ground and you keep saying we don't. Why is this?

 

[Atilla]

My view is that inadequate police funding leads absolutely to an increase in crime.

My advice to the residents is to not put faith in local Labour political help because it is in the electoral interests of these politicians to let the funding cuts have as powerful an effect as possible through public dissatisfaction with crime rates, police failings and austerity in general.

Oh I'm sorry but your post sounded like it was party political broadcast for the Tory party. My bad


I don't always disagree but approach does vary at times.

 

[counter_violent]

Atilla, I keep saying we have common ground and you keep saying we don't. Why is this?

Cos he votes Labour, but if the LibDems were electable he would vote for them too

 

[Atilla]

Cos he votes Labour, but if the LibDems were electable he would vote for them too

I've said that before as I see Tories being bad for UK tearing the country apart and instead of uniting and helping communities they divide people up.

Instead of sharing Inland Revenue proceeds fairly they give more to the rich and less to the lower paid workers.

It's criminal what the Conservative party has done to the United Kingdom, but people will vote for them out of self-interest and misplaced loyalties.


Such is life eh?

 

[counter_violent]

I've said that before as I see Tories being bad for UK tearing the country apart and instead of uniting and helping communities they divide people up.

Instead of sharing Inland Revenue proceeds fairly they give more to the rich and less to the lower paid workers.

It's criminal what the Conservative party has done to the United Kingdom, but people will vote for them out of self-interest and misplaced loyalties.


Such is life eh?

And every Labour govt ends in disaster which the Tory's have to clean up.
See the pattern yet?

 

[tomorton]

I've said that before as I see Tories being bad for UK tearing the country apart and instead of uniting and helping communities they divide people up.

Instead of sharing Inland Revenue proceeds fairly they give more to the rich and less to the lower paid workers.

It's criminal what the Conservative party has done to the United Kingdom, but people will vote for them out of self-interest and misplaced loyalties.


Such is life eh?

I've never been a high rate tax-payer so I have gained not much at all to speak of from tax threshold changes or tax rate changes: its so minimal it wouldn't buy my vote. But I do believe that my self-interest is best served by a strong UK economy. I don't believe we're going to get that under a Labour government - but maybe there's some historic correlation between the governing party and our GDP etc. statistics to prove I'm wrong. Can you oblige on this?

In more general terms I have a major concern that a Labour government is a precursor to socialism, which logically carries forward to a single-party state, and even the prospect of living under a communist regime. Again, I would be very persuaded by historical examples but all the major socialist / communist regimes that come to mind have dissolved into appalling human rights disasters. Given the track record, I don't want to take the risk of repeating history. Again, can you put up evidence that my view of actual socialist regimes is wrong?

 

[Atilla]

And every Labour govt ends in disaster which the Tory's have to clean up.
See the pattern yet?

Not true at all.

You could say Tories, run down public and social services, sell off nationalised industries, rip the public off transferring national assets to monopolies and global companies who distribute profits to shareholders in other countries.

Labour then have to come in and address the balance.


Our recent financial crises was purely down to Raegonomics and Thatchers big bang project deregulating or trusting too large to fail big institutions to self regulate.

The magnitude of damage and loss to country bailing out the banks are in 100s of billions.

You are smug Tory. A bad Tory imho, who's not very good with numbers. Bit of a BS-er too, one who is never wrong.