Capitalism

[hhiusa]

Go back to bed !

I would but you keep digressing and avoiding the topic of capitalism. You have wasted several posts upon fluff.

Do you have any decent logical arguments? :smart:

 

[hhiusa]

Since @Pat494 spent several posts derailing the conversation, I will bring it back on track.

England dervied great financial success from the Enclosure Acts, which enclosed open fields of land in the countryside, creating private property rights. This was a boon to English capitalism.

Jean Baptiste Colbert coined the term "laissez-faire". He was French. Wealthy 21th century Americans are not the only people vying for laissez-faire capitalism. Colbert and other physiocrats started it in the 17th century and was later popularized by Adam Smith. Bernard Mandeville was a Dutch physiocrat famous for his "The Fable of the Bees", from which Adam Smith drew his economic metaphor "the invisible hand". The Economist, an English newspaper, was founded in 1843 and quickly became a prominent voice for laissez-faire capitalism. See, even the English are involved in the laissez-faire movement.

 

[Atilla]

Good read...

http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-martin-shkreli-securities-fraud/

At a Forbes summit in New York this month, wearing a hooded sweatshirt, he said if he could have done it over, “I probably would have raised the price higher,” adding, “my investors expect me to maximize profits.”

 

[hhiusa]

Good read...

http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2015-martin-shkreli-securities-fraud/

At a Forbes summit in New York this month, wearing a hooded sweatshirt, he said if he could have done it over, “I probably would have raised the price higher,” adding, “my investors expect me to maximize profits.”

Maximizing profits is free enterprise.

I know that counter_violent is for Austrian Economics. "They celebrated the contribution of business to society, while doggedly opposing taxes, price controls, and regulations that inhibited enterprise."
I agree we should oppose price controls. :clap:

 

[hhiusa]

This is so true. They certainly love to blame capitalism.

 

[Pat494]

Capitalism in my view is cruel and callous to the many while the few have huge surpluses. Democracy should have sorted this problem but it hasn't !

 

[Atilla]

Capitalism in my view is cruel and callous to the many while the few have huge surpluses. Democracy should have sorted this problem but it hasn't !

As systems go this is precisely the problem capitalism is facing.

Those few who have the money have most of what they need and feel no point in spending.

The many who don't have much at all, have very little money to spend.

As the wealth of nations are polarized into the hands of the few with the hungry many there will inevitably be less demand more suffering and greater disparity and misery.


In response, to squeeze greater productivity and profits, the solution from pure capitalists will be more of the same. Capitalism can not handle any adjustment to growth at all. Actually, Capitalism can only manage increase in growth and struggles with anything else; such as same amount or less than previous year.

For example if we have a small company employing 20 personnel, 7 years of growth whilst is easilly managed with back slaps all around, 7 years decline is often terminal to the existence of a company as a going concern. Capitalism would question why maintain a loss making company?

So perhaps we should look at 100 year old companies to try and better understand what they do that's different.


Capitalism is similar to the all consuming one ring that symbolises the craving of all power which ultimately destroys its beholder as in the Lord of the Rings.

I respect Bill Gates very much. Whilst he has billions he certainly doesn't compete on having biggest house, yatch or fastest cars. He also has pledged to donate 95% of his personal fortune to charity. Top man.

 

[tomorton]

Capitalism in my view is cruel and callous to the many while the few have huge surpluses. Democracy should have sorted this problem but it hasn't !

What you're describing sounds more like feudalism or political oppression.

Capitalism doesn't have cruelty and callousness to the masses as required characteristics. In fact, a more efficient capitalism would involve a healthy, well educated, healthy and prosperous mass of the population - who would be productive in work, have longer working lives, be able to pay higher taxes, be able to undertake a higher value level of work, consume more resources for their non-subsistence life requirements leading to higher employment.

All this also gives that country a more competitive edge over its peers in attracting foreign investment and, dare I say it, immigration, which, if managed correctly, is surely just a very cheap way of attracting foreign resources.

The fact that democracies (in fact our rather primitive political structures) aren't very efficient at generating efficient capitalism, doesn't mean capitalsim is bad. We're not very good at managing a transport network either but nobody thinks train travel is a thing to be abolished as evil.

 

[Pat494]

What you're describing sounds more like feudalism or political oppression.

.

Just a new variation of the old theme of bosses and the workers.
Being paid millions doesn't mean to say the person is any good at anything. There have been plenty of examples of complete idiots being put in charge and making a Horlicks of it.

I remember seeing on TV a few years ago, the Parliamentary Commission on top bankers pay. The 5 High Street CEOs were in front of a panel being asked questions. One question was - what qualifications have any of you got to be CEOs of large banks ?
Answer - none from all 5. They did not have a single banking qualification between them ! No wonder they are in such a bad state. The Communists must be laughing still.

Racial slavery, serfdom etc . has evolved into a new form of financial slavery as practiced by Capitalists. Prisons without walls.

 

[tomorton]

Just a new variation of the old theme of bosses and the workers.
Being paid millions doesn't mean to say the person is any good at anything. There have been plenty of examples of complete idiots being put in charge and making a Horlicks of it.

I remember seeing on TV a few years ago, the Parliamentary Commission on top bankers pay. The 5 High Street CEOs were in front of a panel being asked questions. One question was - what qualifications have any of you got to be CEOs of large banks ?
Answer - none from all 5. They did not have a single banking qualification between them ! No wonder they are in such a bad state. The Communists must be laughing still.

Racial slavery, serfdom etc . has evolved into a new form of financial slavery as practiced by Capitalists. Prisons without walls.

So what relevant qualifications does an MP need to be an MP? None. They are initially selected of coursem, but on the basis of sustainable electability, not competence to govern, and clearly not by an impartial body.

I'm not surprised a bank CEO wouldn't have a banking qualification. Would you think the best hospital administrator must have been a great nurse or a great surgeon? Would the best General have to have been the best tank driver?

As for financial slavery - you can't be serious. Needing to earn enough money to finance loans, mortgages etc. isn't slavery. Nor is needing to budget to balance income and outgoings.

But its an interesting mindset - people who feel themselves enslaved are therefore self-perceived victims, deserving of help from outside, innocent of blame, needing and able to do nothing except await rescue / deliverance. And any attempt to work and earn themselves into a better place would be just tantamount to acknowledging and supporting the regime and therefore to be despised. Better to take the benefit payments rather than work hard as that would enrich the bosses.

While people who see their neighbours as slaves, or feel they should be seen as sufficiently sensitive and considerate as to see them as slaves, affect guilt and feel obligated to at least consume less, at best crusade to free them - this is a fine picture of champagne or Islington socialism.

 

[hhiusa]

So what relevant qualifications does an MP need to be an MP? None. They are initially selected of coursem, but on the basis of sustainable electability, not competence to govern, and clearly not by an impartial body.

I'm not surprised a bank CEO wouldn't have a banking qualification. Would you think the best hospital administrator must have been a great nurse or a great surgeon? Would the best General have to have been the best tank driver?

That makes a very good point.

As for financial slavery - you can't be serious. Needing to earn enough money to finance loans, mortgages etc. isn't slavery. Nor is needing to budget to balance income and outgoings.

But its an interesting mindset - people who feel themselves enslaved are therefore self-perceived victims, deserving of help from outside, innocent of blame, needing and able to do nothing except await rescue / deliverance. And any attempt to work and earn themselves into a better place would be just tantamount to acknowledging and supporting the regime and therefore to be despised. Better to take the benefit payments rather than work hard as that would enrich the bosses.

I think this is the best part. Exactly, these people feel entitled to 0.1%'s money solely because they are less fortunate, and that it is they who have enslaved them and made them poor. Nothing could be further from the truth.

What they describe is financial slavery of the entrepreneurs. @Atilla and @Pat494 think that the entrepreneurs, being successful, should have to take care of and give "deliverance" to them for being less fortunate. Basically, if you work too hard and become successful, you will end up being enslaved to carry the burden of those who do not want to work.

While people who see their neighbours as slaves, or feel they should be seen as sufficiently sensitive and considerate as to see them as slaves, affect guilt and feel obligated to at least consume less, at best crusade to free them - this is a fine picture of champagne or Islington socialism.

 

[Atilla]

Astronauts originally were selected from best test fighter pilots and other pilots.

Football managers were once up on a time football players them selves. I can't see a supermarket manager becoming a football manager for very long without showing good results but Fred the Shred was able to recruit one YES man from the retail sector. As much as I respect your views Tomorton you do come out with some big whoppers. :cheesy:

Generals are usually promoted up the rank and have experience either on the battle field or in studies from one academy or other. Churhill's a good example, what do you think?

Self built business Empires have worked from the ground up. They usually have a very good understanding of their business and buy specific experience they don't have.


I find it amazing that after our big balls up and billions and trillions pumped into banking people can still rabbit on about how bloody marvelous our so called capitalistic system is.

I'm curious if you think there is any part that needs attention which can be improved upon?

 

[Atilla]

That makes a very good point.




I think this is the best part. Exactly, these people feel entitled to 0.1%'s money solely because they are less fortunate, and that it is they who have enslaved them and made them poor. Nothing could be further from the truth.

What they describe is financial slavery of the entrepreneurs. @Atilla and @Pat494 think that the entrepreneurs, being successful, should have to take care of and give "deliverance" to them for being less fortunate. Basically, if you work too hard and become successful, you will end up being enslaved to carry the burden of those who do not want to work.

What's happened to your logical brain and fallacies dude?

Tomorton has come up with a number of points which have no validity to the argument and you are as quiet as a pussy cat with his tongue dipped deep in cream or some brown stuff who knows?

 

[Pat494]

What's happened to your logical brain and fallacies dude?

Tomorton has come up with a number of points which have no validity to the argument and you are as quiet as a pussy cat with his tongue dipped deep in cream or some brown stuff who knows?

I am surprised the American people still believe that American Dream BS and blame themselves as inadequate. Henry ford squashed the Unions into oblivion back in the 1930s.
It's time the worms turned and stuck up for themselves. The Robber Barons are alive and well and much too wealthy. They have to cower into gated communities. Well that's an indication of how things are.
Machines will be making millions more unemployed soon. The problem with Conservatism is it lets in capitalists and religious fanatics. Urgh

The Scots are enduring Trump style capitalism and they hate it.

 

[Pat494]

What's happened to your logical brain and fallacies dude?

Tomorton has come up with a number of points which have no validity to the argument and you are as quiet as a pussy cat with his tongue dipped deep in cream or some brown stuff who knows?

Still on the planet Vulcan probably.

 

[Atilla]

Still on the planet Vulcan probably.

Haha too right.

Managing a hospital requires man and departmental management skills. Don't need to be a brain surgeon.

For a politician one has to be a good communicator as well as being an electable candidate yes absolutely. However, one doesn't become those roles without many hours of experience in some relevant field or another.

However, our man Flint goes on to add that makes a very good point as if it's the same to become CEO of an investment bank with all it's different market divisions.

Incredible!!!


Give someone enough rope and they'll hang them selves.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/why-rbs-failed-as-an-investment-bank-2015-3

The RBS collapse did not come suddenly.

It was decades in the making, and was the result of an internal culture that put the sale of questionable financial products ahead of concerns about the risk those products would create. The bank grew recklessly, overpaying for other banks that it acquired, as its balance sheet ballooned to £2.2 trillion ($3.3 trillion), larger than the entire GDP of the United Kingdom.

That growth was overseen by two CEOs who had no direct, hands-on experience of banking.

 

[tomorton]

Lots of stuff that emanates from our capitalist system could be improved. But as an economic system, moderated by our parliamentary form of democracy and universal suffrage, it has immeasurably improved the lives and expectations of most people in the UK since the start of the industrial revolution. Note that economic systems incompatible with capitalism do not usually permit the political benefits we casually enjoy.

Taking the long view, capitalism is a rather new and not fully explored system, that continues to become understood only in real time as we live through it and we make it evolve.

The beneficial trend within capitalism has actually accelerated, despite the 2008 financial crisis that everyone seems to think was so historically important. Haven't you heard this week that male life expectancy in England is at its historically highest ever, at 84?

 

[hhiusa]

What's happened to your logical brain and fallacies dude?

Tomorton has come up with a number of points which have no validity to the argument and you are as quiet as a pussy cat with his tongue dipped deep in cream or some brown stuff who knows?

What a shocker! More mudslinging from @Atilla :cheesy:

What fallacies @Atilla? You claim to understand logic, so point them out. What points of @tomorton's do you believe to have no validity?

England dervied great financial success from the Enclosure Acts, which enclosed open fields of land in the countryside, creating private property rights. This was a boon to English capitalism.

Jean Baptiste Colbert coined the term "laissez-faire". He was French. Wealthy 21th century Americans are not the only people vying for laissez-faire capitalism. Colbert and other physiocrats started it in the 17th century and was later popularized by Adam Smith. Bernard Mandeville was a Dutch physiocrat famous for his "The Fable of the Bees", from which Adam Smith drew his economic metaphor "the invisible hand". The Economist, an English newspaper, was founded in 1843 and quickly became a prominent voice for laissez-faire capitalism. See, even the English are involved in the laissez-faire movement.

 

[Atilla]

Lots of stuff that emanates from our capitalist system could be improved. But as an economic system, moderated by our parliamentary form of democracy and universal suffrage, it has immeasurably improved the lives and expectations of most people in the UK since the start of the industrial revolution. Note that economic systems incompatible with capitalism do not usually permit the political benefits we casually enjoy.

Taking the long view, capitalism is a rather new and not fully explored system, that continues to become understood only in real time as we live through it and we make it evolve.

The beneficial trend within capitalism has actually accelerated, despite the 2008 financial crisis that everyone seems to think was so historically important. Haven't you heard this week that male life expectancy in England is at its historically highest ever, at 84?

By inference, correct me if I'm wrong, you are attributing credit to capitalism.

However, it is the NHS the medical profession which is a social government run service that surely deserves recognition. Which in turn is supported by the greater tax paying populace.

One could also argue that life expectancy is correlated to more even distribution of income and diet rather than capitalism as in some developing countries where there is uneven distribution of income people don't live that long either.


Not suggesting we do away with capitalism by the way. Just looking at improving it with respect to more transparent numeration and rewards and avoiding catastrophe of the last 5 years and trillions which you seem to have dismissed and batted away as if it was of no consequence.

 

[hhiusa]

By inference, correct me if I'm wrong, you are attributing credit to capitalism.

However, it is the NHS the medical profession which is a social government run service that surely deserves recognition. Which in turn is supported by the greater tax paying populace.

One could also argue that life expectancy is correlated to more even distribution of income and diet rather than capitalism as in some developing countries where there is uneven distribution of income people don't live that long either.


Not suggesting we do away with capitalism by the way. Just looking at improving it with respect to more transparent numeration and rewards and avoiding catastrophe of the last 5 years and trillions which you seem to have dismissed and batted away as if it was of no consequence.

Where are the fallacies that you claim @tomorton committed? :smart: