Capitalism

[itspossible]

watching game of thrones but ill read later.im as green as hell when it comes to politics lol.
i just believe in honesty, fair play integrity etc.i have my own code of ethics and give huge amounts of stuff away for nothing,computers,guitars etc.

 

[Atilla]

 

[hhiusa]

Stop mucking up the thread with pointless videos. Just post something pertinent.

 

[Atilla]

Click on my name and please add me to Your Ignore List...

Thank you!

 

[Forexmospherian]

The problems of Capitalism

I would like to say for a start that if the OP would like us to move on to another thread to further the discussion on the pros and cons of Capitalism - then one of hhiusa's seems perfect.

Before I answer the points raised but both hhiusa and n_t with regards to Capitalism - its important others realise that I am no closet socialist and that I certainly lean far more to the right and Capitalism then i do to the left and of socialism. However I strongly believe a balance is required simply because the world of today is different from 50 or 100 yrs ago and neither Capitalism or socialism can work in isolation

After over 25 + yrs has a successful businessman and entrepreneur / inventor ( yes I actually invented a vending machine concept - but never trade marked it and it did not contribute to my cash wealth ) - I certainly would be associated to the Thatcher era and also UK Capitalism of the early 1980's to early 2000's.

I therefore know of its weaknesses - and ones that are not normally discussed or shared in public.

Capitalism depends on successful entrepreneurial business minded men and woman who have integrity and morals - who don't worship the buck or dollar more than anything else.

To ensure this happens - there has to be rules of engagement and commercial and state laws that protect all parties involved - ie the company - the owners - the workforce - the customers etc etc.

As in trading - business people need to have an "edge" - ie something a bit different to make their product or service stand out more than their competitors and so for them to be more successful

I am going to give you a hypothetical example ( so not to be sued lol) of an example of an edge a company like Goldman Sachs might use if they owned a football ( soccer team ) in the UK. - ie

1 - they would want to play with 12 or 13 players rather than 11 players

2. - they would not want to swop halves at half time on their home ground so they could take advantage of a slightly smaller Goal post area and also a 10 degree ground slope towards the centre circle.. Also the grass would be a lot longer on their half of the pitch - but like a billiard board in the oppositions half

3. Their dressing rooms would have heated benches and hot showers and all the mod cons - but their opposition would have to deal with just one shower and not heating and no benches for the oppositions manager and staff to sit down on

4. They would only allow 2000 maximum opposition fans into their ground - whilst the stadium would hold 50000 spectators and they would hope they would be supported by 40000 plus home fans

5. They would be very very nice to the referee and linesmen - ie a 5 course a la carte lunch along with bottles of expensive wine that could be taken away after the match - not just 1 or 2 bottles - but half a dozen cases.

Now most members reading this would immediately say - that's not fair - they are not playing by the rules - they are taking advantage etc etc

Well in business that's what successful business do - they don't always play by the rules - they look for the weak areas to exploit and bend the rules to favour their business. I have done it many times and i would say 90% of successful businessmen have done it.

The normal "edges" successful businesses might have are thing such as - an exception good product or services - fantastic low price compared to others - dedicated workforce - exemplary reliability and a first class customer service dept - etc etc.

Then they need great sales and marketing staff - the type that can sell snow to eskimos or a brand new car to some one who cannot drive or lost their licence for 3 yrs etc.

But what are the special edges that the very large successful companies use - to ensure they stay at the top of the game and make their shareholders extremely happy - year after year .

Well - they normal cheat - deceive - mislead in fact every trick in the book that is not really mentioned in the Capitalism "handbook" - but they have to not be associated to anything that would discredit them - I mean if that happened it might effect their sales - and that would be bad.

So how do they make use of this special "edge" ?

They might employ Capitalist parasites - ie Lawyers - PR people -third party marketing companies etc to do their dirty work - because it's so important that you can cover yourself and cancel any contract you have with the parasite companies that get caught out.

If a business is a start up - with little capital and cash flow and an inexperienced owner or boss - then they cannot really engage in all these "tricks" the bigger boys play - they might have to cut corners in costs - ie pay their staff slightly lower wages with less commission etc etc or maybe employ underage or foreign staff who are only in the UK on a 3 months visa etc etc.

The real question is - are the countries rules and laws on business capable of weeding out the Capitalist who dont play fairly - and cheat on the staff - competitors - customers - etc.

The larger and more successful a business becomes - the easier it is to have extra "edges" - and power and control etc.

So maybe you dont pay your suppliers after 30 days - maybe not even 90 days - no use that special trick of not even paying them at all - ie the quality of what they delivered did not meet your QC standard - and so you dumped them - and it cost you money - sue the supplier.

Maybe you set up a method of overcharging the customer - but of course - refund them if they notice.

Or Maybe you and two or 3 of the big players in your field form an "under the table " discreet monopoly ( yes know all about that lol )

Who loses out - the customers and other businesses trying to enter you field ?

So how do we ensure owners and bosses and senior management in Capitalist countries play by the rules - easy - the elected Government needs to be distant to them - not supported by them - they must be at "arms length" - not like what happens in the US with Goldmans and the FED etc etc

Can we depend on the Government having men and woman with integrity - who yet again on not just lovers of the dollar / buck ? - ie many ex business people - can they remain unbias etc and not fall to Goldman's guys wanting to discuss potential new business over a 3 day all paid cruise in the South of France ??

This is just touching the surface - 21 st century Capitalism is now getting out of control - there are too many clever new people out their - all with a special edge -competition is great - we want to be with the winners - but do we want to be with the Lance Armstrong's of the business world - or not ??

Only you can answer that

More into detail tomorrow


Regards


F

 

[VielGeld]

If the discussion on Capitalism is clogging up this thread, I can move the relevant posts elsewhere.

 

[hhiusa]

I would like to say for a start that if the OP would like us to move on to another thread to further the discussion on the pros and cons of Capitalism - then one of hhiusa's seems perfect.

Before I answer the points raised but both hhiusa and n_t with regards to Capitalism - its important others realise that I am no closet socialist and that I certainly lean far more to the right and Capitalism then i do to the left and of socialism. However I strongly believe a balance is required simply because the world of today is different from 50 or 100 yrs ago and neither Capitalism or socialism can work in isolation

The fact that you say you are a Conservative and are right-leaning but want a "balance" between capitalism and socialism is not a conservative ideology nor a capitalist one for that matter. You have spent a great deal of time bashing capitalism and yet you have not said anything about the flaws of socialism.

After over 25 + yrs has a successful businessman and entrepreneur / inventor ( yes I actually invented a vending machine concept - but never trade marked it and it did not contribute to my cash wealth ) - I certainly would be associated to the Thatcher era and also UK Capitalism of the early 1980's to early 2000's.

I therefore know of its weaknesses - and ones that are not normally discussed or shared in public.

"You have seen many things, but you pay no attention..."
- Isaiah 42:20

Your arguments commit many fallacies. Where to begin!

I will restate what I posted earlier. You have committed the same ad verecundiam fallacy. Being wealthy or being a businessman does not make you an authority on capitalism, which is also a non sequitur. Inventing does not make you an authority on capitalism either.

The fact that you stated you have had 25+ years as a successful businessman is an argument from age fallacy. This is a variation on the genetic fallacy. Logical form presents as thus, Person 1 says Y is true. Person 1 has more experience; therefore, Y is true. The argument precludes the idea of a priori knowledge. The argument relies upon a posteriori justification and not knowledge. Experience does not always equate to wisdom.

Capitalism depends on successful entrepreneurial business minded men and woman who have integrity and morals - who don't worship the buck or dollar more than anything else.

This is an ad consequentiam fallacy. Validity based upon the best consequences in the positive form.

If P, then Q will happen.
Q is a desirable consequence.
Therefore, P is true.

Capitalism need not depend upon the morals of its users. You are blending many topics at once. This brings up the is-ought problem. "We can have no certain knowledge of morality from them, being incapable of deducing how things ought to be from the fact that they happen to be arranged in a particular manner in experience."
- Kant

 

[hhiusa]

Post your thoughts on capitalism here.

 

[hhiusa]

If the discussion on Capitalism is clogging up this thread, I can move the relevant posts elsewhere.

You can move them to this thread if you want.
http://www.trade2win.com/boards/foyer/207062-capitalism.html#post2571674

 

[Forexmospherian]

The fact that you say you are a Conservative and are right-leaning but want a "balance" between capitalism and socialism is not a conservative ideology nor a capitalist one for that matter.



"

Agree

Capitalism on its own as many downsides - as does Socialism - that's why you need the good parts of both "camps" to be able to come up with a better - improved method.

The main problem though is many look at the two "camps" being set in stone - and therefore cannot be integrated to work as one .

Maybe n_t is covering this part more - as he seems to be deep into theory - but with so much bias.

When he quotes many present economies are nearer to Fascism than Capitalism - i would love to know which economies he is talking about - in the US the buck is both King and Queen and big business controls the Government and co and Goldmans Sachs and a few others control the Fed.

Big strong government can be as bad as big strong Google or Apple or Microsoft - a countries rules and laws need to be strong enough to control all within in - and that means if a top government official breaks the law in a major way - he will be sentenced to punishment in prison - in the same way a top Banker should be if he does a similar crime.

In a true democracy - we vote for the type of government we want

However we have no say in the owner of the next new super conglomerate - ie the next Google etc and so we are so dependent on the founder and the owner and the main management team having true integrity,honesty and accountability to keep capitalism back on the straight and narrow

More to follow


Regards


F

 

[Pat494]

If you are old and frail don't go to capitalist havens like Newport Beach, 'cos if you do and happen to fall over, hhiusa's buddies are more likely to step over you than waste a buck calling an ambulance. Hhiusa would from what he says probably not bother to even lift his leg to step over you . He might to pee on ya though if you look sort of poor. ( I haven't forgotten that US citizens have the dubious distinction of topping the list of Nationalities peeing in the hotel pool.)

 

[Pat494]

Capitalists put mere money first ( except for themselves ) while decent people put people including others first.

Pure capitalism is heartless
Pure socialism is brainless

A decent mix is fortunately the lot of most people.

:clap:

 

[hhiusa]

Capitalists put mere money first ( except for themselves ) while decent people put people including others first.

Pure capitalism is heartless
Pure socialism is brainless

A decent mix is fortunately the lot of most people.

:clap:

At least we know you can't make a logical argument with repeated ad hominem arguments and appeal to emotion fallacies.

 

[hhiusa]

Agree

Capitalism on its own as many downsides - as does Socialism - that's why you need the good parts of both "camps" to be able to come up with a better - improved method.

The main problem though is many look at the two "camps" being set in stone - and therefore cannot be integrated to work as one .

Maybe n_t is covering this part more - as he seems to be deep into theory - but with so much bias.

When he quotes many present economies are nearer to Fascism than Capitalism - i would love to know which economies he is talking about - in the US the buck is both King and Queen and big business controls the Government and co and Goldmans Sachs and a few others control the Fed.

Big strong government can be as bad as big strong Google or Apple or Microsoft - a countries rules and laws need to be strong enough to control all within in - and that means if a top government official breaks the law in a major way - he will be sentenced to punishment in prison - in the same way a top Banker should be if he does a similar crime.

In a true democracy - we vote for the type of government we want

However we have no say in the owner of the next new super conglomerate - ie the next Google etc and so we are so dependent on the founder and the owner and the main management team having true integrity,honesty and accountability to keep capitalism back on the straight and narrow

More to follow


Regards


F

You are obviously not replying to me as you have not address a single thing I have said.

 

[hhiusa]

If you are old and frail don't go to capitalist havens like Newport Beach, 'cos if you do and happen to fall over, hhiusa's buddies are more likely to step over you than waste a buck calling an ambulance.

Well the average age for Newport Beach is 35. It is a capitalist's paradise. The police are more likely to ticket out of towners and foreigners.

Vive la Californie!

 

[Forexmospherian]

You are obviously not replying to me as you have not address a single thing I have said.

As a "Capitalist" and leader - I only work to my agenda

Once I have that laid out - I then answer the counter arguments

Remember strength, power and having the "edge" on your side normally wins in the end - and what is wrong with that ?

Seems fair to me ;-))

Regards


F

 

[Atilla]

Capitalists put mere money first ( except for themselves ) while decent people put people including others first.

Pure capitalism is heartless
Pure socialism is brainless

A decent mix is fortunately the lot of most people.

:clap:

Very true yes... Like to also add;


Being rich doesn't make one clever or smart.
Being poor doesn't make one stupid or dumb.

Associating money with success is one of the fallacies of life. As one good old rich body once said; Money may not get you happiness but it allows one to live miserably in comfort.

 

[hhiusa]

As a "Capitalist" and leader - I only work to my agenda

Once I have that laid out - I then answer the counter arguments

Remember strength, power and having the "edge" on your side normally wins in the end - and what is wrong with that ?

Seems fair to me

Regards


F

Almost all things in this world function in a Darwinian manner. If a neuron is not being used enough, pulling its weight in essence, it will not receive the neurotrophin nerve growth factor (NGF). Neurons that have NGF withdrawal, will undergo apoptosis - programmed cell death. Basically, the neuron is told to commit suicide so that it can be used to build more connections between existing neurons.

Dominant genes knock out recessive genes. This is why I find fair blue eyes more appealing.

Weaker and smaller companies are acquired by conglomerates.

Survival of the fittest is programmed into all things.

Poverty and genes
http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/videos/is-poverty-genetic/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3975540/

 

[Forexmospherian]

I have over my business career partnered with many different types of businessman - all very entrepreneurial - some mega rich - ie a billionaire - - two just multi millionaires ( $20m and $250m) and two others not quite multi millionaires - all what you would term Capitalist - as they place profits as maybe top of the list - or certainly in the top three

The relationships lasted from under 18 months to one that made 7 years.

One of the business relationship only lasted about 3 years. This guy started life as a chartered accountant - worked for PWC in America for 3 years and Saudi Arabia for 2 year. He was a really sharp cookie - He had got a first at Cambridge and soon climbed the career ladder very quickly - but always knew before he was 30 yrs old he wanted to take charge and own his own businesses.

When I met him he was in his late 40's and very successful - he had sold out one of his companies the previous years and was looking for new ventures and he had already been a sleeping partner in one of my earlier ventures.

Being an ex accountant and brilliant networker he was close to others in the business who handled company wind-ups / receiverships. He had the chance to purchase a limited company with a 15 year history that owned 12 garages in the south of the UK - with annual turnover of of over £140 million - normal debts - that needed being secured ( maybe £3 million ) and it was losing at that time approx over £120k - per month.

He could do the deal for just £1 ( Yes - one pound ) as long as he secured the immediate £3 million debts on key creditors including the HMRC for over half a million. He had less than 7 days to make a decision and wanted to see what I thought - ( I don't know why - because even though I thought i was fairly sharp and streetwise - i was just not in his league )

To cut a long story - to just a brief summary - before i tell you some of the tricks he got up to - he completed - kept on 4 profitable garages and expanded then - closed down 8 garages putting over 300 people out of work - and then sold the land on for large profits .

I think on one garage he closed down in the South of London that had over 2 acres of land - he made over £3 million on just that on the land sale - I don't know what he made on the other 7 - but I am sure not as much

As you can imagine - he worked hard on the project - was brilliant at thinking out of the box and was able to craftily dodge most of the debts -( even most of it to the HMRC ) he did not break the redundancy laws with the 300 staff that lost their jobs - but instead of having to pay out over £1.4 million redundancy payments he got way under £400k.

He moved the rules to favour him - he even was faced with physical abuse as well as loads of verbal abuse - but he was a "toughie" ( in the true sense as well being 6ft 5inches and over 22 stone in weight).

Now a question to ask yourself - would you want to be associated with this type of businessman ??

A very successful - rich and clever entrepreneur - was he maybe in the minority? - giving Capitalism a bad name and 90% of all other entrepreneurs being advised would not have pulled off these tactics ??

Look forward to your thoughts ?


Regards


F

 

[Forexmospherian]

Almost all things in this world function in a Darwinian manner. If a neuron is not being used enough, pulling its weight in essence, it will not receive the neurotrophin nerve growth factor (NGF). Neurons that have NGF withdrawal, will undergo apoptosis - programmed cell death. Basically, the neuron is told to commit suicide so that it can be used to build more connections between existing neurons.

Dominant genes knock out recessive genes. This is why I find fair blue eyes more appealing.

Weaker and smaller companies are acquired by conglomerates.

Survival of the fittest is programmed into all things.

Poverty and genes
http://www.sciencechannel.com/tv-shows/through-the-wormhole/videos/is-poverty-genetic/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3975540/

Interesting

I have sky blue eyes - and at the age of 62 - neither require reading glasses or glasses for driving etc. I have never wanted to wear glasses - as always been sporty - and have been able to improve my own eyesight over the last 5 years - using techniques that are used on fighter pilots who require the very best eyesight possible. My Optician friends don't normally talk about these techniques - I wonder why - lol

Off for Sunday Lunch - back later