Best Thread Capital Spreads
Perrington
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I also recall the commissioning of a downloadable dealing interface.... This is something I was really looking forward to seeing, it will be nice to have some clarification regarding this Simon.
For what it is worth I have not so long ago raised the issue of real time charts again having been previously advised they would be ready by Christmas. I have since been told that the IT people they have contracted to do this work have come up against a problem and Capital are left high and dry relying on this company unable to give a time when they will become available.
I had already delayed signing up early last year because of the lack of this facility and disappointed to find that with the new update to the trading platform the charts are still absent. Now that the promise of real time charts has been waiting for over a year I suspect that for whatever reason you will not see them for a very long time IMHO.
At present this remains the only downside for me with Capitalspreads, there service is otherwise excellent. I would hope that if they are unable or unwilling to provide such a service that after this left of time Simon would come out an say so or provide a realistic up date of this situation when he has the time to do so.
I had already delayed signing up early last year because of the lack of this facility and disappointed to find that with the new update to the trading platform the charts are still absent. Now that the promise of real time charts has been waiting for over a year I suspect that for whatever reason you will not see them for a very long time IMHO.
At present this remains the only downside for me with Capitalspreads, there service is otherwise excellent. I would hope that if they are unable or unwilling to provide such a service that after this left of time Simon would come out an say so or provide a realistic up date of this situation when he has the time to do so.
Just a question... but why isn't the spread centred on the current bid/ask for US rolling daily bets?
I've been watching CSCO for a couple of hours, and put a min stake short on it - on entry the bid:ask was 18.37-18.38 and the CS price 18.36-18.41, the CS price has been pretty consistently set at 1c below the bid, 3 c above the ask, for a good while now. Is there some reason, seeing as interest and futures etc aren't involved, why the spread shouldn't centre on the midpoint?
In fact the bid:ask just dipped to 18.28:18.29 before climbing to 18.29-30, and the price on CS stayed rock solid at 18.29-18.34.... why doesn't the CS price on a realtime bet move with the actual market?
Now the bid/ask is 31-32 but the CS price is 28-33.... the actual market has climbed a cent while CS has apparently moved to reflect the slight drop of a couple of minutes ago... it's like there is a couple of minutes lag between the market and the CS quote, not always in CS favour I hasten to add!
Dave
I've been watching CSCO for a couple of hours, and put a min stake short on it - on entry the bid:ask was 18.37-18.38 and the CS price 18.36-18.41, the CS price has been pretty consistently set at 1c below the bid, 3 c above the ask, for a good while now. Is there some reason, seeing as interest and futures etc aren't involved, why the spread shouldn't centre on the midpoint?
In fact the bid:ask just dipped to 18.28:18.29 before climbing to 18.29-30, and the price on CS stayed rock solid at 18.29-18.34.... why doesn't the CS price on a realtime bet move with the actual market?
Now the bid/ask is 31-32 but the CS price is 28-33.... the actual market has climbed a cent while CS has apparently moved to reflect the slight drop of a couple of minutes ago... it's like there is a couple of minutes lag between the market and the CS quote, not always in CS favour I hasten to add!
Dave
Perrington
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hi guys,
I asked the question recently regarding realtime charting and was told they wont be available for a long time, I can deal wth that as I always feel its in your self interests to take up an external source for your data. However, having said that, a realtime supply from CS would be very interesting for comparisons, and if the current supplier is unable to supply the products and facilities that represent CS's drive for customer service improvement, then maybe they should seek an alternative company that can.
A note on the spread being biased to the upperside of the bid-ask price, Ive noticed this, its on just about every market and wonder why this is ? Everything happens for a reason so they say.... so why is the spread showing a bias ? and coupled with a slow updates......
CS are a reasonable firm to deal with, but this issue really does need addressed on this forum so everyone is exactly clear as to why the spreads show bias to the upperside and update slowly. I think CS are the slowest ive seen out of ALL spreadbetting companies with regards to the update speed and a "truthful" reflection of the "real" market.
Also, could you update here regarding whether or not there will be a downloadable version of the CS dealing platform.
Pezza.
I asked the question recently regarding realtime charting and was told they wont be available for a long time, I can deal wth that as I always feel its in your self interests to take up an external source for your data. However, having said that, a realtime supply from CS would be very interesting for comparisons, and if the current supplier is unable to supply the products and facilities that represent CS's drive for customer service improvement, then maybe they should seek an alternative company that can.
A note on the spread being biased to the upperside of the bid-ask price, Ive noticed this, its on just about every market and wonder why this is ? Everything happens for a reason so they say.... so why is the spread showing a bias ? and coupled with a slow updates......
CS are a reasonable firm to deal with, but this issue really does need addressed on this forum so everyone is exactly clear as to why the spreads show bias to the upperside and update slowly. I think CS are the slowest ive seen out of ALL spreadbetting companies with regards to the update speed and a "truthful" reflection of the "real" market.
Also, could you update here regarding whether or not there will be a downloadable version of the CS dealing platform.
Pezza.
Last edited:
:!: Be careful about what you accept as 'an external source for your data'.Perrington said:
I can't see many firms trawling though and collating raw trade data to come up with their own tables and charts when there are providers out there with a white-label kit ready to be branded/badged. If your intention is to cross check using two refernces then you must be sure that they use independent source data and don't simply both badge the same kit.
=Perrington said:
Again, I notice distinct similarities between the CS on-line platform and that put up by E*Trade, for example. I wonder if both have simply badged a 3rd party product, or whether its a CS product badged by E*Trade, or vice versa.
Perrington said:
I do see this 'bias' sometimes too, wondering why that is.
As for the slowness, I remember Simon writing something to the effect that the demo platform updates every 5 seconds, the live one also every 5 seconds, until you place a bet, then that position is updated every 1 second. The 5 seconds delay, I see, though the real bet position seems to be a bit lacking as well. In al fairness, I have so far only placed one bet on the live platform, so I can't speak in generals as of now.
Simon, do I remember right regarding the timings?
All the best...
same outfit
Again, I notice distinct similarities between the CS on-line platform and that put up by E*Trade, for example. I wonder if both have simply badged a 3rd party product, or whether its a CS product badged by E*Trade, or vice versa.[/QUOTE]
Capital Spreads is a division of London Capital Group which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority.
E*TRADE Securities Limited, 42nd Floor 1 Canada Square London E14 5AA registered in Scotland No: SC10328 is authorised and regulated in the United Kingdom by the Financial Services Authority. Applications for Spreadbetting are introduced to London Capital Group which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority
Both seem to be involved with London Capital Group.
Again, I notice distinct similarities between the CS on-line platform and that put up by E*Trade, for example. I wonder if both have simply badged a 3rd party product, or whether its a CS product badged by E*Trade, or vice versa.[/QUOTE]
Capital Spreads is a division of London Capital Group which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority.
E*TRADE Securities Limited, 42nd Floor 1 Canada Square London E14 5AA registered in Scotland No: SC10328 is authorised and regulated in the United Kingdom by the Financial Services Authority. Applications for Spreadbetting are introduced to London Capital Group which is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority
Both seem to be involved with London Capital Group.
Perrington
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Interesting, so if the live system updates only every 5 seconds, how is one expected to place a bet at the "real" spot price ? especially in a fast moving market. The live systems should update in accordance with the underlying markets at all times, prior to placing a bet and whilst the position remains open. 5 second updates prior to placing a trade is open is spread "reworking" in my opinion. Like I said earlier, all these mechanisms are in place for a reason....
Okay,
the example I was quoting was CSCO, which I had a live short running on (cleaned up in the end, I won £3, which I spent today on some batteries <g> It's the thought that counts...)
I can understand a few seconds delay on the prices frankly, the servers at CS end have a cycle of jobs/events to process, you only have to code up a program to process info from an RT feed to realise that if you don't build some sort of cycle/wait arrangement in then you are going to see MSFT update a lot and nothing else will do a thing. The trick is to make that cycle as short as possible.
I'm using esignal as a feed, my pereception of the delay is not that it's 5 seconds - in the example I quoted where the price dipped and then climbed back up I then saw a dip in the CS price at least 2 minutes later. Sometimes this can work in your favour - I could have taken an extra point there having seen the real price bounce back... it does tend to annoy a little if a price moves a litle more in your favour for a short spell and the SB price doesn't move at any point, although in practical terms this will actually only affect you if you had intended to exit at that dip price and you subsequently didn't gett he chance to do so.
The upside bias - I hadn't realised it was widespread, which would imply there's a reason for it (quite possibly a perfectly good one, before we all cry foul), I can only comment on the prices I've directly observed myself... it's just this was an obvious slight skewing that was visible over an extended period. When I write my trades down I note the bid/ask at the time, also the SB prices quoted, I can then compare the SB spread to the actual market at any stage. In support of CS I have to say that whilst I do occasionally wonder where a cent or two has gone to, I can't say I've seen any significant amounts of bias or spread widening going past on the stocks I'm watching.
the example I was quoting was CSCO, which I had a live short running on (cleaned up in the end, I won £3, which I spent today on some batteries <g> It's the thought that counts...)
I can understand a few seconds delay on the prices frankly, the servers at CS end have a cycle of jobs/events to process, you only have to code up a program to process info from an RT feed to realise that if you don't build some sort of cycle/wait arrangement in then you are going to see MSFT update a lot and nothing else will do a thing. The trick is to make that cycle as short as possible.
I'm using esignal as a feed, my pereception of the delay is not that it's 5 seconds - in the example I quoted where the price dipped and then climbed back up I then saw a dip in the CS price at least 2 minutes later. Sometimes this can work in your favour - I could have taken an extra point there having seen the real price bounce back... it does tend to annoy a little if a price moves a litle more in your favour for a short spell and the SB price doesn't move at any point, although in practical terms this will actually only affect you if you had intended to exit at that dip price and you subsequently didn't gett he chance to do so.
The upside bias - I hadn't realised it was widespread, which would imply there's a reason for it (quite possibly a perfectly good one, before we all cry foul), I can only comment on the prices I've directly observed myself... it's just this was an obvious slight skewing that was visible over an extended period. When I write my trades down I note the bid/ask at the time, also the SB prices quoted, I can then compare the SB spread to the actual market at any stage. In support of CS I have to say that whilst I do occasionally wonder where a cent or two has gone to, I can't say I've seen any significant amounts of bias or spread widening going past on the stocks I'm watching.
I am surprised by the amount posted on the varrying degree of different price quotes provided by spreadbetting firms and this obviously involves the more volatile markets. Now I might be naive and I am not here to support or turn against the spreadbetting company just to offer my twopennyworth.
If you have chosen to trade by way of spreadbetting then you are trading THERE MARKET and so you have to trade according to THERE PRICES and however there prices move. That is why I believe that you need a chart of live real time spreadbet prices. The dependence of this becomes more so if you are trading a method that might encourage you to trade small price movements which will mean a point here or there is of more concern.
My understanding of spreadbet prices and how the spread on the instrument they offer may differ at times with the true market price. Some instruments may have a wider spread from 3 - 5 points sometimes more. The spreadbetting company may offer a price that differs with the last move of the real market because they have the price either up within the spread or down not always like for like. They could be expecting a reverse and on the likes of the FX or US markets the difference can be several points.
In the end you have to adapt your trading style to accommodate the true market but also the one you are really trading, the spreadbetting market. If your method is not about small points but of longer term or good positional trading then your only concern will be that on a round trip you may miss the odd few points but should not hinder your trading method. IMHO.
If you have chosen to trade by way of spreadbetting then you are trading THERE MARKET and so you have to trade according to THERE PRICES and however there prices move. That is why I believe that you need a chart of live real time spreadbet prices. The dependence of this becomes more so if you are trading a method that might encourage you to trade small price movements which will mean a point here or there is of more concern.
My understanding of spreadbet prices and how the spread on the instrument they offer may differ at times with the true market price. Some instruments may have a wider spread from 3 - 5 points sometimes more. The spreadbetting company may offer a price that differs with the last move of the real market because they have the price either up within the spread or down not always like for like. They could be expecting a reverse and on the likes of the FX or US markets the difference can be several points.
In the end you have to adapt your trading style to accommodate the true market but also the one you are really trading, the spreadbetting market. If your method is not about small points but of longer term or good positional trading then your only concern will be that on a round trip you may miss the odd few points but should not hinder your trading method. IMHO.
Perrington
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The game of spreadbetting is difficult enough to make money from as it is, a few pips here and there make a heck of a lot of difference annually....especially for the short term trader.
The fact remains, there can be no complaints from anyone if the spread bias does not exist, and afterall, why is the spread biased? To state the obvious, you dont get bid/ask biased at level 2, so why in SB.? just my two pennys worth.
Pezza.
The fact remains, there can be no complaints from anyone if the spread bias does not exist, and afterall, why is the spread biased? To state the obvious, you dont get bid/ask biased at level 2, so why in SB.? just my two pennys worth.
Pezza.
the blades
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....regardining the bias (and I may be missing the point here) but are we really looking at the interest charge levied by the SB company? The mid price of the SB quote will almost always be higher than the market mid - as you trade on margin (and If you're like me you'll be getting towards 6% interest on money that'd be otherwise tied up) and pay interest on the "quote". This is then offset by any dividends due, generally less than the interest rate.
UTB
UTB
I can see your point, but I think you might have overlooked something.
If the SB company diverge from the 'real' market in the stock by too much, then it is possible for a trader to trade directly in the market AND the SB on that market, making a profit from the discrepancies... ultimately at least part of the SB company position in major, heavily traded markets will be hedged and it's no use to the SB company if their version of the price is radically different to reality - they've to hedge on the actual market themselves.
Should the difference be caused by the SB company deliberately offsetting as they believe the price is moving in one direction or the other, then the SB company are themselves taking a position on the trade - given that they're in business because they think SB is a mugs game (they're hardly going to start up if they think they'll pay out more than they take in) it seems unlikely to me that a consistent bias would be intentional.... that's effectively saying they're not only going to 'tax' you via the spread, but that they know the direction the bet is actually going to go.
The spread is quoted as a percentage either side of the actual price, hence the spread varies depending on price of instrument - not all markets have the same percentage set, it depends on volatility and doubtless other things as well. Two shares on the Nasdaq, one at $20 and the other at $40, should show the same 1:2 ratio in spreads I believe, although I wouldn't be surprised to find there's some variation involved in that.
I prefer to run my own charts, with the lines on them, periods, mutliple charts and so on that help me decide whether to enter long/short, when to exit, and so on - I'd be extremely reluctant to be limited to using the SB company charts, live or not. As the prices CS quote are extremely close to the underlying market prices, we're talking a cent or two 'off' here, I don't think the answer is to all run CS charting, I think the answer is to find out why this is apparent - it's entirely likely, in my view, that CS are unaware of it, or are struggling to fix it.... if I were running an SB company I'd want my prices and those of the market in synch.
If the SB company diverge from the 'real' market in the stock by too much, then it is possible for a trader to trade directly in the market AND the SB on that market, making a profit from the discrepancies... ultimately at least part of the SB company position in major, heavily traded markets will be hedged and it's no use to the SB company if their version of the price is radically different to reality - they've to hedge on the actual market themselves.
Should the difference be caused by the SB company deliberately offsetting as they believe the price is moving in one direction or the other, then the SB company are themselves taking a position on the trade - given that they're in business because they think SB is a mugs game (they're hardly going to start up if they think they'll pay out more than they take in) it seems unlikely to me that a consistent bias would be intentional.... that's effectively saying they're not only going to 'tax' you via the spread, but that they know the direction the bet is actually going to go.
The spread is quoted as a percentage either side of the actual price, hence the spread varies depending on price of instrument - not all markets have the same percentage set, it depends on volatility and doubtless other things as well. Two shares on the Nasdaq, one at $20 and the other at $40, should show the same 1:2 ratio in spreads I believe, although I wouldn't be surprised to find there's some variation involved in that.
I prefer to run my own charts, with the lines on them, periods, mutliple charts and so on that help me decide whether to enter long/short, when to exit, and so on - I'd be extremely reluctant to be limited to using the SB company charts, live or not. As the prices CS quote are extremely close to the underlying market prices, we're talking a cent or two 'off' here, I don't think the answer is to all run CS charting, I think the answer is to find out why this is apparent - it's entirely likely, in my view, that CS are unaware of it, or are struggling to fix it.... if I were running an SB company I'd want my prices and those of the market in synch.
Blades,
that 'interest' part is the only reason I can think of as for why this is seen, in which case the answer would simply be 'the mid price is always offset upwards by x%'.... it doesn't explain why the price doesn't move in synch with the live market however.
that 'interest' part is the only reason I can think of as for why this is seen, in which case the answer would simply be 'the mid price is always offset upwards by x%'.... it doesn't explain why the price doesn't move in synch with the live market however.
the blades
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DaveJB said:
Dave,
In my thread, "spread prices", I am trying to track this. In my experience, the prices do move in synch with the market. As I trade over several months, I'm maybe not looking quite so "close" as to notice these variations.
Cheers,
UTB
Cheers,
I'll take a look - the thing that puts me off interest as being a factor, is that this is a rolling daily bet - I wouldn't have thought (although I could be wrong on this) that interest therefore figured.... ditto things like dividends, the rolling day can be held over for a fee (or small income depending on whether you are long or short) but as the life of the bet is the opening hours on the day then I don't see where the same factors that affect the quarterly futures are applicable. However, it's a possibility I'm wrong on that...
This is really just something that niggles - you see it and say 'why isn't that centred? Why isn't that moving when my chart does?'
I'll take a look - the thing that puts me off interest as being a factor, is that this is a rolling daily bet - I wouldn't have thought (although I could be wrong on this) that interest therefore figured.... ditto things like dividends, the rolling day can be held over for a fee (or small income depending on whether you are long or short) but as the life of the bet is the opening hours on the day then I don't see where the same factors that affect the quarterly futures are applicable. However, it's a possibility I'm wrong on that...
This is really just something that niggles - you see it and say 'why isn't that centred? Why isn't that moving when my chart does?'
Another penny, don't want to spend it all at once.
Of course a few pips at each round trip add up. Subject to the instrument you are trading the alternative is commission and Tax. You don't get bias in the real market but you get the additional costs so you have to decide what is right for you and what offers best value not what is the fairest.
You only have to go back a few years and spreadbetting was far worse much wider spreads than you experience now. More competition than there used to be has lead to improvements. But they have yet to reach the stage where you can expect a level playing field with the real market. You cannot take a reasonable size deal below normal market size and not get a less favourable position with some companies. The spread is still less favourable but improving. You have to make your choice and design your method of trading to take account of trading through spreadbetting if you intend to continue using them IMHO.
Compare them against conventional brokerage and you will get the usual, spreads wider, cannot take large deals, slow orders leading to less favourable prices. Until such time as spreadbetting becomes completely a full part of the trading environment rather than on the fringes the gap between conventional service and spreadbetting will remain. I can only say that over the last 4 years having traded with 3 spreadbetting companies I have seen improvements and can only hope this continues.
Until such time as this happens I do not feel you can consider spreadbetting from a like position but accept it for what it is in its present format and if you can adapt to work within these parameters then fine. By all means make request for further improvements to level the playing area but do not expect it to happen overnight. Level 2 and direct access through conventional means must be the path to follow if you cannot come to terms or adapt to the way spreadbetters operate. You will not get the same service with volatile markets. You have to establish is the better spread with direct access or brokers better than no tax or costs with some slippage on the spread.
Of course a few pips at each round trip add up. Subject to the instrument you are trading the alternative is commission and Tax. You don't get bias in the real market but you get the additional costs so you have to decide what is right for you and what offers best value not what is the fairest.
You only have to go back a few years and spreadbetting was far worse much wider spreads than you experience now. More competition than there used to be has lead to improvements. But they have yet to reach the stage where you can expect a level playing field with the real market. You cannot take a reasonable size deal below normal market size and not get a less favourable position with some companies. The spread is still less favourable but improving. You have to make your choice and design your method of trading to take account of trading through spreadbetting if you intend to continue using them IMHO.
Compare them against conventional brokerage and you will get the usual, spreads wider, cannot take large deals, slow orders leading to less favourable prices. Until such time as spreadbetting becomes completely a full part of the trading environment rather than on the fringes the gap between conventional service and spreadbetting will remain. I can only say that over the last 4 years having traded with 3 spreadbetting companies I have seen improvements and can only hope this continues.
Until such time as this happens I do not feel you can consider spreadbetting from a like position but accept it for what it is in its present format and if you can adapt to work within these parameters then fine. By all means make request for further improvements to level the playing area but do not expect it to happen overnight. Level 2 and direct access through conventional means must be the path to follow if you cannot come to terms or adapt to the way spreadbetters operate. You will not get the same service with volatile markets. You have to establish is the better spread with direct access or brokers better than no tax or costs with some slippage on the spread.
Perrington
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If you trade GOOG for instance, CS are quoting 190.00-190.27, the underlying market rises 25 cents, CS does not update its price, the underlying market drops 10 cents, CS still does not update its price, then it drops again 7 cents, then it drops 24 cents then CS updates its price to 189.84-190.13, this all happens in 2 seconds of time, nevermind 5 seconds... I could have been filled at 190.25-190.52 then closed the position at the actual quoted price of 189.84-190.13 and scalped a loss of 12 quid 
. So essentially, the frequency of updates is very important to the short term trader not only on exiting a position, but entering even more so. I also trade longer term positions, and like to have a good scalp now and then, however this is irrelevant. I am in this game to maximise. Basically there are two issues here, centred spread and realtime updates, other SB companies can manage this, so I therefore assume CS can also. If the bias reasoning is not explained and the update times remain slow, along with no realtime charting in the longterm and no downloadable dealing interface, then this means I could look to play elsewhere.
Pezza.
. So essentially, the frequency of updates is very important to the short term trader not only on exiting a position, but entering even more so. I also trade longer term positions, and like to have a good scalp now and then, however this is irrelevant. I am in this game to maximise. Basically there are two issues here, centred spread and realtime updates, other SB companies can manage this, so I therefore assume CS can also. If the bias reasoning is not explained and the update times remain slow, along with no realtime charting in the longterm and no downloadable dealing interface, then this means I could look to play elsewhere.Pezza.
Pezza
If you are scalping such a volatile market I am surprised you are doing so using spreadbetting as your trading vehicle. Personally if you try another spreadbetting company that does provide immediate price changes and charts such as D4F I suspect you will still experience some problems with the real price and the position taken by D4F. They may be a little different with the order process but I think when you compare it to the real market pricing you will see what I mean. From my experience those spreadbetting companies that maintain a wider spread tend to keep the price shall we say more stable but even they have moments.
If you want fast completed orders you need direct access trading. For starters you could easily be in a position with CS and the market takes off against you, you go to change you order but you get a refusal because the price has moved since you hit the button. You end up closing a little later for a less favourable price. I would not wish to trade such an instrument from a scalping method but more of an intraday positional play. Spreadbetting IMHO offers less value on volatile markets for very short term trading. Not that it cannot be done but with the market hard enough to contain you are stacking the cards against you even more IMHO. Good luck.
If you are scalping such a volatile market I am surprised you are doing so using spreadbetting as your trading vehicle. Personally if you try another spreadbetting company that does provide immediate price changes and charts such as D4F I suspect you will still experience some problems with the real price and the position taken by D4F. They may be a little different with the order process but I think when you compare it to the real market pricing you will see what I mean. From my experience those spreadbetting companies that maintain a wider spread tend to keep the price shall we say more stable but even they have moments.
If you want fast completed orders you need direct access trading. For starters you could easily be in a position with CS and the market takes off against you, you go to change you order but you get a refusal because the price has moved since you hit the button. You end up closing a little later for a less favourable price. I would not wish to trade such an instrument from a scalping method but more of an intraday positional play. Spreadbetting IMHO offers less value on volatile markets for very short term trading. Not that it cannot be done but with the market hard enough to contain you are stacking the cards against you even more IMHO. Good luck.
