tradesmart
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Ah - but you're not looking for 'free' £10's are you.....?
Best Thread Capital Spreads
Ah - but you're not looking for 'free' £10's are you.....?
tradesmart
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Neither would I .....!.. 
Merry Christmas....... :cheesy:
Merry Christmas....... :cheesy:
From the context, I suspect that what he means is that if people "scalp" by repeatedly taking advantage of momentary pricing errors in the CS system (eg lag against the underlying prices), then they'll get hacked off. It's pretty clear (to me) that he's not saying you can't scalp points out of the market - what I think he's saying is that that they won't tolerate you scalping points from them.
When he comes back, I'm sure he'll wish he'd clarified this before he went away
EDIT: Bugger - had I realised there was one more page to the thread, and read all the replies, I would have noticed that Lion got there first with the same view. Oh well, consider this an example of him scalping from the thread before the laggards catch up - metaphors R us
When he comes back, I'm sure he'll wish he'd clarified this before he went away
EDIT: Bugger - had I realised there was one more page to the thread, and read all the replies, I would have noticed that Lion got there first with the same view. Oh well, consider this an example of him scalping from the thread before the laggards catch up - metaphors R us
You are both right, of course. It's pretty clear that that's what he meant. CS do their utmost to be nice to people but won't tolerate people deliberately taking the p!ss, and if people do that repeatedly they'll have to check prices before dealing, as he said (fair enough too, in my view). Lion - in his customary style - explained it far better than I did, because he's more articulate than I am and also gets less rattled with people who are absolutely determined to miss the point and start accusing people of things they never said. Ah well ... "mea culpa"; should have left it to him in the first place!
Why on earth do people not only continue to use bookmakers but also leap to defend them against the indefensible? Why on earth do you promote the proposition that when the punter makes a profit it is taking the p*ss?
Perhaps these people do what they can to appear nice people but remember snakes mesmerise their prey before striking. Snakes want food. Bookies want profit.
I don't want to sound like TradeSocraVector or others of that ilk but for goodness sake use what god put between your ears.
I am not trying to defend CapitalSpreads or any other company however, one has to look at the argument from both sides of the fence. How many of us would like our customers placing trades after the results are known? It is akin to me going into Ladbrokes and backing the winner at Kempton at 3.05pm when the race finished two minutes earlier; I can just see the manager rolling out the red carpet every time I come back in.
Some may snigger at the trivial amounts involved but as one that has indulged in such practises in the past, all I can say is that sometimes little fish are sweet. Unfortunately, most of them have tightened up and rarely give outdated quotes.
Some may snigger at the trivial amounts involved but as one that has indulged in such practises in the past, all I can say is that sometimes little fish are sweet. Unfortunately, most of them have tightened up and rarely give outdated quotes.
I am no expert but facts are:-
1.CS's prices for FTSE has never been exactly as the spot price - there is always a 3 to 4 point difference.
2.CS are on records saying that they make their money from spreads
3. Theire quoted price for stocks also are rarely per the spot price and even there is anything between .25p to 100p difference in the spread.
Just considering the above three points, I can not understand how and why CS can think that punters are taking the mickey. There is always a difference between CS's proces and the market prices amd they make their money from spread as well.
1.CS's prices for FTSE has never been exactly as the spot price - there is always a 3 to 4 point difference.
2.CS are on records saying that they make their money from spreads
3. Theire quoted price for stocks also are rarely per the spot price and even there is anything between .25p to 100p difference in the spread.
Just considering the above three points, I can not understand how and why CS can think that punters are taking the mickey. There is always a difference between CS's proces and the market prices amd they make their money from spread as well.
tradesmart
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I think that we have to err on the side of moderation in all of this:-
The facts are plain - you'll get on very well with CapitalSpreads as long as you don't take....
1.) The mickey
2.) The p*ss
3.) The money
(and don't ask why their prices are different to the 'market' price...)
The facts are plain - you'll get on very well with CapitalSpreads as long as you don't take....
1.) The mickey
2.) The p*ss
3.) The money
(and don't ask why their prices are different to the 'market' price...)
When you decide to trade with a spreadbetting company rather than by conventional means you add another factor to your trading. You have to accept and understand you are trading by there rule book if you are not happy with that then you must return to conventional trading.
The issue around spreadbetting is the ability to trade in lower amounts which can help people when starting out or testing a new theory and the tax issue. The spread and other matters are the hidden costs of trading by this medium. Therefore when you decide to use spreadbetting you have to realise your trading will not just be about waiting for your signal and then taking your profit, it will have to incorporate getting an entry and exit at reasonable prices and having confidence that the company you use at least offer this.
You must then adapt your trading to take account of these issues otherwise spreadbetting will not suit you. One of the obvious ways that spreadbetting cannot offer you the same tools is when trading something that has high volatility with prices moving quickly on an intraday basis IMHO. You cannot look to the real market prices and then expect like for like with the spreadbetting prices they just do not work that way. The spreadbetting company will at these times take a position that will differ from the real price by x amount of points, the faster the instrument the wider the spreadbetting price will be from the real price. To effectively gauge intraday prices you need to monitor a chart of the spreadbetting companies own prices. Spreadbetting is better suited to trading which does not involve day trading techniques but it is not impossible just you need to help yourself by reducing some of the disadvantages. This can be by selecting an instrument that has reasonable daily moves but has a fixed small spread, by trading more selectively such as intraday position trading. The smaller the spread the less your deal has to work for you.
If tax is not an issue and you want to trade on an even playing field; although even conventional trading is not played evenly as the big players have the advantage at least there will be fewer disadvantages to your trading mechanics. At the end you have to make a choice, either you accept the different rules and can play within them or you cannot or will not. The choice is yours and is not worth losing any sleep over spreadbetting just work with it or move on.
Regards
Kevin
The issue around spreadbetting is the ability to trade in lower amounts which can help people when starting out or testing a new theory and the tax issue. The spread and other matters are the hidden costs of trading by this medium. Therefore when you decide to use spreadbetting you have to realise your trading will not just be about waiting for your signal and then taking your profit, it will have to incorporate getting an entry and exit at reasonable prices and having confidence that the company you use at least offer this.
You must then adapt your trading to take account of these issues otherwise spreadbetting will not suit you. One of the obvious ways that spreadbetting cannot offer you the same tools is when trading something that has high volatility with prices moving quickly on an intraday basis IMHO. You cannot look to the real market prices and then expect like for like with the spreadbetting prices they just do not work that way. The spreadbetting company will at these times take a position that will differ from the real price by x amount of points, the faster the instrument the wider the spreadbetting price will be from the real price. To effectively gauge intraday prices you need to monitor a chart of the spreadbetting companies own prices. Spreadbetting is better suited to trading which does not involve day trading techniques but it is not impossible just you need to help yourself by reducing some of the disadvantages. This can be by selecting an instrument that has reasonable daily moves but has a fixed small spread, by trading more selectively such as intraday position trading. The smaller the spread the less your deal has to work for you.
If tax is not an issue and you want to trade on an even playing field; although even conventional trading is not played evenly as the big players have the advantage at least there will be fewer disadvantages to your trading mechanics. At the end you have to make a choice, either you accept the different rules and can play within them or you cannot or will not. The choice is yours and is not worth losing any sleep over spreadbetting just work with it or move on.
Regards
Kevin
Kevin546,
That is a well constructed post and deals with reality, you have encompassed the rules and thoughts that have to go into the decision making about spread betting. However, how many of us stop to think of these? The spread bet companies have to make money somehow and if it is not through wider spreads the only other way has to be punters losses. Once we accept this, there is a basis to move forward and attempt to skew things in our favour.
Why would one look at a live DOW chart that is based on the index price in order to trade when it is obvious that the spread bet quotes are different? Surely, it stands to reason that one should use a chart that is based on the company's quote. It is a bad farmer that constantly blames his tools.
Once one has decided to place trades with spread bet firms, it stands to reason that that includes the wider spreads etc. There is no need to moan about it; if I believe that their quote is too high - I sell; if my belief is that it is too low - I buy. THE PRICE IS THE PRICE. Spread betting successfully is an art and one has to get better and not stand still, the spread bet firms continuously strive to improve their odds and the punter/client/trader must do the same - IMPROVE OR LOSE.
That is a well constructed post and deals with reality, you have encompassed the rules and thoughts that have to go into the decision making about spread betting. However, how many of us stop to think of these? The spread bet companies have to make money somehow and if it is not through wider spreads the only other way has to be punters losses. Once we accept this, there is a basis to move forward and attempt to skew things in our favour.
Why would one look at a live DOW chart that is based on the index price in order to trade when it is obvious that the spread bet quotes are different? Surely, it stands to reason that one should use a chart that is based on the company's quote. It is a bad farmer that constantly blames his tools.
Once one has decided to place trades with spread bet firms, it stands to reason that that includes the wider spreads etc. There is no need to moan about it; if I believe that their quote is too high - I sell; if my belief is that it is too low - I buy. THE PRICE IS THE PRICE. Spread betting successfully is an art and one has to get better and not stand still, the spread bet firms continuously strive to improve their odds and the punter/client/trader must do the same - IMPROVE OR LOSE.
the blades
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Spreadbetteur said:
if by frightened you mean demonstrated pure ignorance on the subject, dashed with a few insults that amused the recipients then yes, I'd have to agree.
Roberto - perhaps you should question why bother? It seems that some members have not only fixed their perception of spreadbetting, they have developed the ability to know the success of your trades and contents of your trading pot.
Merry Christmas to one and all.
UTB
Lion63
I agree. I personally feel that if you can succeed with spreadbetting then you will be well prepared for the 'REAL MARKET'. There are a number of factors where spreadbetting creates problems such as the dealing size, fills and exits there positioning, 24 hour pricing to ruin a good position to name but a few. Learn how to deal with this and the real market is a breeze by comparison. Instant fills with much larger deals and exact pricing. The main factor for spreadbetting is the issue of no tax although that can be a topic all on its own. You have to establish what offers best value but I would argue that in the case of day trading, direct access is the easier play if wishing to trade a wider range of instruments without all the disadvantages mentioned with spreadbetting.
As with any trading you should work to progress until you have reached a level that does not require further progress according to your individual objective whatever that maybe.
Good luck
Kevin
I agree. I personally feel that if you can succeed with spreadbetting then you will be well prepared for the 'REAL MARKET'. There are a number of factors where spreadbetting creates problems such as the dealing size, fills and exits there positioning, 24 hour pricing to ruin a good position to name but a few. Learn how to deal with this and the real market is a breeze by comparison. Instant fills with much larger deals and exact pricing. The main factor for spreadbetting is the issue of no tax although that can be a topic all on its own. You have to establish what offers best value but I would argue that in the case of day trading, direct access is the easier play if wishing to trade a wider range of instruments without all the disadvantages mentioned with spreadbetting.
As with any trading you should work to progress until you have reached a level that does not require further progress according to your individual objective whatever that maybe.
Good luck
Kevin
starspacer
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Excellent post Kevin.
I supect that Simon referred to arbs when he made his statement about people taking the mickey. Good luck to these people. Anyone, clever enough and quick enough to spot arb opportunities deserves to make a bit and I dare say adds some benefit to the 'market' (liquidity?).
As for this statement scaring off people, I would think that if anyone experienced bad service from CS due to racking up major profits, then this would be widely pubicized on this forum. Apart from the odd rant, this doesn't seem to be happening. Can you imagine the effect of say someone like Kevin (or another respected contributor) posting a message saying that he had been banned from CS (or had otherwise been extremely disadvantaged in some way) for making too much profit? There would be a stampede for the exit and, at a stroke, all goodwill would have been destroyed.
I suspect that the truth of the matter is that CS and any other spread betting company, simply don't need to 'fix' the odds. It is well known that something like 90% of traders lose money, and I would say that this is probably a conservative estimate. By simply hedging against the major risks, and letting the ordinary Joe trade go unhedged, I supect that SB companies could almost charge no spread and still make a decent profit! Incidentally, there was a time that City Index offered no spread on Vodafone. I would hazard a guess that they still made money on this.
Finally, I was a bit miffed at the tirades that one or two posts let volley at Simon. As he said, he is away over Christmas and will no doubt respond when he gets back. Also, remember that courtesy costs nothing.
I supect that Simon referred to arbs when he made his statement about people taking the mickey. Good luck to these people. Anyone, clever enough and quick enough to spot arb opportunities deserves to make a bit and I dare say adds some benefit to the 'market' (liquidity?).
As for this statement scaring off people, I would think that if anyone experienced bad service from CS due to racking up major profits, then this would be widely pubicized on this forum. Apart from the odd rant, this doesn't seem to be happening. Can you imagine the effect of say someone like Kevin (or another respected contributor) posting a message saying that he had been banned from CS (or had otherwise been extremely disadvantaged in some way) for making too much profit? There would be a stampede for the exit and, at a stroke, all goodwill would have been destroyed.
I suspect that the truth of the matter is that CS and any other spread betting company, simply don't need to 'fix' the odds. It is well known that something like 90% of traders lose money, and I would say that this is probably a conservative estimate. By simply hedging against the major risks, and letting the ordinary Joe trade go unhedged, I supect that SB companies could almost charge no spread and still make a decent profit! Incidentally, there was a time that City Index offered no spread on Vodafone. I would hazard a guess that they still made money on this.
Finally, I was a bit miffed at the tirades that one or two posts let volley at Simon. As he said, he is away over Christmas and will no doubt respond when he gets back. Also, remember that courtesy costs nothing.
You're right, and they've fixed it on the basis of a mixture of inaccurate and out-of-date information. Sometimes they even ask how SB firms make a living, if it's not from their clients' losses. Yet for some strange reason they don't ask the same question about good old-fashioned stockbrokers whose "spread" is just a "commission payment" instead!! Kind of gives away their preconceptions and prejudices, doesn't it?the blades said:
You're quite right, and I should question that more than I do, and bother less than I do. A shame, in a way, to let such prejudiced, inaccurate, opinionated and sometimes offensively-worded misinformation pass uncorrected. I always feel that someone should point out in these circumstances that the "facts" and assumptions are so very far off the mark. But yesterday's conversation about a silly misunderstanding over what Simon had said rather illustrates your point, doesn't it?the blades said:
I suspect that the bottom line, really, is that the difference between paying tax and not paying tax on what you earn from trading is only relevant if you're making a living from it, and the people doing so already appreciate that anyway. That's undeniably the "main argument", of course, but it's not relevant to many.
Merry Christmas to you too, the Blades
capitalspreads
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hello everyone
my comment about taking the mickey appears to have set off some alarm bells.
Please let me clear this up
Up to now, after 14 months of being in business, we have yet to close a single client down. (and some of our clients have won a great deal of money indeed, certainly alot more than I will ever earn in a year).
When I said taking the mickey I was referring to the practice of some traders who, because of their own personal 'real' market access, can place 'phantom' prices in the 'real' market in illiquid shares and then when these prices appear on our trading platform they try to trade with us at the price artificially created by themselves.
After a couple of goes we spot these guys/girls and then make sure that we dont get caught by them again.
this is what i meant by the phrase I used ' it depends what you mean by scalping' .
We do have quite a few 'arbers' who trade with us but far from dissuading them from trading we are happy to take their business as in the main we are happy with our prices and if we are in the wrong they generally give us a 'heads up' that something is awry. I am happy (well maybe not 'happy') to give away the odd couple of hundred pounds to someone who alerts me to a problem on the trading platform which, if we did not see it, could cost us a great deal more.
We analyse arbitrage traders all the time and actually we make a good deal of money from their business which rather shows that our prices seem to be better than our competitors!
Gullible please .. we quote our rolling FTSE in 2 points wide... if we are 3 to 4 points out from the market why not trade and wait for us to come back inline. Our forward share prices include cost of carry and any dividends both of which will effect the price we quote. Which may explain why you see a difference between our price and the spot price. If you look at our rolling daily share prices you will see that they always straddle the 'spot price' and have very tight spreads.
Also your statement that I am on record as saying that I close down winning clients or make it difficult for them to trade is not just close to being libellous, it is libellous. It is so ludicrously wrong that I find it difficult to even comment.
All the wild comments on the previous two pages seem to be based on general moans about SB companies which we (Capital Spreads) seem to be the focus for, simply because we have the balls to at least talk to our clients. If we were treating our clients badly dont you think they would be filling these pages with their greivances?
i dont know .. i go away for one day...and all hell breaks loose
Have a good christmas everyone
Simon
my comment about taking the mickey appears to have set off some alarm bells.
Please let me clear this up
Up to now, after 14 months of being in business, we have yet to close a single client down. (and some of our clients have won a great deal of money indeed, certainly alot more than I will ever earn in a year).
When I said taking the mickey I was referring to the practice of some traders who, because of their own personal 'real' market access, can place 'phantom' prices in the 'real' market in illiquid shares and then when these prices appear on our trading platform they try to trade with us at the price artificially created by themselves.
After a couple of goes we spot these guys/girls and then make sure that we dont get caught by them again.
this is what i meant by the phrase I used ' it depends what you mean by scalping' .
We do have quite a few 'arbers' who trade with us but far from dissuading them from trading we are happy to take their business as in the main we are happy with our prices and if we are in the wrong they generally give us a 'heads up' that something is awry. I am happy (well maybe not 'happy') to give away the odd couple of hundred pounds to someone who alerts me to a problem on the trading platform which, if we did not see it, could cost us a great deal more.
We analyse arbitrage traders all the time and actually we make a good deal of money from their business which rather shows that our prices seem to be better than our competitors!
Gullible please .. we quote our rolling FTSE in 2 points wide... if we are 3 to 4 points out from the market why not trade and wait for us to come back inline. Our forward share prices include cost of carry and any dividends both of which will effect the price we quote. Which may explain why you see a difference between our price and the spot price. If you look at our rolling daily share prices you will see that they always straddle the 'spot price' and have very tight spreads.
Also your statement that I am on record as saying that I close down winning clients or make it difficult for them to trade is not just close to being libellous, it is libellous. It is so ludicrously wrong that I find it difficult to even comment.
All the wild comments on the previous two pages seem to be based on general moans about SB companies which we (Capital Spreads) seem to be the focus for, simply because we have the balls to at least talk to our clients. If we were treating our clients badly dont you think they would be filling these pages with their greivances?
i dont know .. i go away for one day...and all hell breaks loose
Have a good christmas everyone
Simon
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the blades
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capitalspreads said:
no, because all us SB ers are "hobby traders" who know nothing and enjoy lining "bookmakers" pockets. When we learn the game like the "big boys" we will go "direct access". We are happy that your prices vary wildly from the true price because of "bias", so why would we comment. After all, we will continually lose money to the "real traders" whatever we do.
You have no need to close anybody down because all SBers are "lightweight" losers.
As for your perfectly reasonable explanations to all these SB myths, "you would say that".....wouldn't you?
Surely I've saved a lot of people a lot of time on wasted posts? Remember to forward me some of your extra "real" profits from the better trades you subsequently make - minus 40% tax, of course
.UTB
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Blazerwire
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I'm sorry I asked the Q. By scalping, which is one of my preferred approaches, I merely meant the goal of grabbing a few pips here and there, albeit at a frequent rate, through very short-term positions. Certainly nothing as elusive as 'arbing' or as shifty as playing with 'phantom' prices was intended... out of my league.
Interesting reading though... I will be giving CS a prelim... anything to dodge tax.
Interesting reading though... I will be giving CS a prelim... anything to dodge tax.
