FXSCALPER2
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If you need to get in and out of positions during the day, you are a bloody fool to trade with Capital Spreads.
I have sympathy with anyone who is losing consistently through SB. But it is very possible to be a consistent loser without being a victim of cheating. My sympathy is on a personal level, but 'professionally' I have no agreement.
I have an account with both Capital Spreads and Finspreads, I trade mostly the FSE100 a month or so ahead. They both use the same data feed, so their charts are identical, though their quotes and spreads are about 2-4pts constantly adrift compared one with the other. I can see how it is tempting to think that Capital might spike their prices to catch a stop one of their clients has 30pts above the market, but this could be ruinous for Finspreads who might be forgiben for being tempted to spike it the pother way at the exact same moment to ctahc a client who has an opposing position / order. It just doesn't happen.
And even if an SB spiked the price 30pts up to take out a stop on a short, then the market drops and that shorter sees a potential gain evaporate, how would the SB know the market was about to tank and we didn't?
I have an account with both Capital Spreads and Finspreads, I trade mostly the FSE100 a month or so ahead. They both use the same data feed, so their charts are identical, though their quotes and spreads are about 2-4pts constantly adrift compared one with the other. I can see how it is tempting to think that Capital might spike their prices to catch a stop one of their clients has 30pts above the market, but this could be ruinous for Finspreads who might be forgiben for being tempted to spike it the pother way at the exact same moment to ctahc a client who has an opposing position / order. It just doesn't happen.
And even if an SB spiked the price 30pts up to take out a stop on a short, then the market drops and that shorter sees a potential gain evaporate, how would the SB know the market was about to tank and we didn't?
Already I find I had better correct myself - Fins this morning spiked the December FTSE 28pts at 0748 for less than a minute. The Capital Spreads chart does not show this. Clearly they are able to modify their own charts. I don't know if the Fins spike would have / did actually trigger any orders, but it would have been painful to be on the wrong side of that one. Perhaps 'out of underlying market hours' prices and charts are not to be taken for granted.
Agree completely - I used to think I was paranoid until I came on here and saw I wasnt the only one. I called them up one day to tell them they are an absolute disgrace and what they were doing was surely breaking FSA rules and guidelines on 'Treating Customers Fairly'.. I said check out this forum to see that I am not the only one this happens to and the girl replied that they were 'very aware of the T2W forum' so looks like they know but don't care.
they should not be allowed get away with skewing their spreads to spike trades out like they do - but as they dont hedge any of their trades they are effectively a bookmaker so it is in their best interest to lock in a loss for you.
they should not be allowed get away with skewing their spreads to spike trades out like they do - but as they dont hedge any of their trades they are effectively a bookmaker so it is in their best interest to lock in a loss for you.
oiltanker
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given there are courses in how to take out the chartists at oxford university then it is not surprising the market behaves in a way that will take out a good chunk of those with tight stop losses based on TA?
as far as i can see either one has a big stoploss [which might be why they have a default of 200pts on some markets] or take profits quickly. this day an age retail traders are up against hedge fund computers designed to take your money. and the computers work faster and more accurately than humans can.
TA assumes price has memory. Mathematicians don't believe that. If price really had memory and TA 'worked' then people would have worked it out long ago?
as far as i can see either one has a big stoploss [which might be why they have a default of 200pts on some markets] or take profits quickly. this day an age retail traders are up against hedge fund computers designed to take your money. and the computers work faster and more accurately than humans can.
TA assumes price has memory. Mathematicians don't believe that. If price really had memory and TA 'worked' then people would have worked it out long ago?
Do give some evidence of trades were you have been spiked out, with charts compared to the movement of the underlaying asset.
JTrader
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If all this is true then take them to court and break them!
Take them down in China Town!!
A lot of talk with little proof really. I need some evidence, I haven't seen anything yet of what they are claiming.
A littel OT, but I don't actaully believe that. To me, TA is just a way to represent the psychology of a market comprising of thousnads of individual traders, and understand what the mass of traders will do. Why do support and resistance levels work - because enough people believe they will and set their stops and limits accordingly. While it's true that price has no memory, the people leaving orders which drive the price do, and if there's one point to TA it's that it helps you predict what other people are going to do. Circular I admit, but true in my experience. That's why rocket scientists at Oxford aren't necessarily the best traders (even if they are the best mathematical modellers) - they tend to come at it from too academic a background and get done in when price behaves according to irrational, human factors.
Hmm very intresting.....
Some one I know had this happen to them and when they called the relevent SB firm desk and questioned the price action he was told by the dealer.
You trade our prices not the exchanges prices and our price hit your stops exactly at your stop leavel.
This is true, and have a contact to support this satement plus evedence.
Indeed there are lots of holes in SB terms and conditions ie prices are derived from the market.
Having seen the SB Firms responce I found it hard to believe how they get away with this practise.
I trade DMA for most of the time and still have some active SB accounts that i use ocasionally when its best business to do so
If any one want to take this to court they will need very big pockets or wait for years for FSA or office of fair trading to get to the bottum of it.
Been ripped of by SB firms ? cant say I did not warn you people
Some one I know had this happen to them and when they called the relevent SB firm desk and questioned the price action he was told by the dealer.
You trade our prices not the exchanges prices and our price hit your stops exactly at your stop leavel.
This is true, and have a contact to support this satement plus evedence.
Indeed there are lots of holes in SB terms and conditions ie prices are derived from the market.
Having seen the SB Firms responce I found it hard to believe how they get away with this practise.
I trade DMA for most of the time and still have some active SB accounts that i use ocasionally when its best business to do so
If any one want to take this to court they will need very big pockets or wait for years for FSA or office of fair trading to get to the bottum of it.
Been ripped of by SB firms ? cant say I did not warn you people
capitalspreads
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masses of comment and no facts
i was stopped out on a spike that did not happen. Really? Please give an example. I am sorry but if a price move really happens then YES!! you will get stopped out. You would in DMA as well.
CS forced the price up/down to take out a stop... my god do people really believe this stuff? Some guy with a 5 pound bet really thinks CS is going to spend tens of thousands of pounds trying to hunt out stops?
You trade our price and not the exchange (last comment)..... ummm sorry but what is wrong with that statement? You do trade on our prices not the exchange...we derive our prices from the exchange but they are still at the point of sale to you 'our quotes'.
In reality the client was probably asking about an index trade (FTSE, Dow, Dax) or FX where there are no definitive 'exchanges' or trading in a quarterly equity where the price is generated from the exchange for a future value. None of these markets could you point to a definitive 'price' on an exchange because you cannot actually trade them on an exchange.
The FTSE rolling bet (for instance) does not exist. You cannot buy or sell 'the FTSE 100' in 1 point wide. And the price is therefore derived from the Futures markets. The FTSE index value is only calculated by the exchanges once every 15 seconds. At any moment why not actually sit and count how many price changes the futures market in the FTSE makes in 15 secs. It could easily move up 5 points and back down 10 meaning that 'the exchange' would show a five point move lower from one print to the next but the SB company would show a price move of up 5 before falling 10. The fact that the 'exchange' does not show the price move does not mean that it did not happen.
No doubt somebody would claim that this was a 'spike' BUT IT ISNT. It is a legitimate price action move. A spike is a print from an exchange that is later removed from the exchange records. We had a big one about three years ago on the dow futures.
As I have commented several times on this thread "please give a definitive example of a stop not actually fairly hit". Merely being taken out at the high or low of a move is unlucky but not unfair. Our computers are unfeeling and automatic.. if they print the price your stop will be activated.
Simon
i was stopped out on a spike that did not happen. Really? Please give an example. I am sorry but if a price move really happens then YES!! you will get stopped out. You would in DMA as well.
CS forced the price up/down to take out a stop... my god do people really believe this stuff? Some guy with a 5 pound bet really thinks CS is going to spend tens of thousands of pounds trying to hunt out stops?
You trade our price and not the exchange (last comment)..... ummm sorry but what is wrong with that statement? You do trade on our prices not the exchange...we derive our prices from the exchange but they are still at the point of sale to you 'our quotes'.
In reality the client was probably asking about an index trade (FTSE, Dow, Dax) or FX where there are no definitive 'exchanges' or trading in a quarterly equity where the price is generated from the exchange for a future value. None of these markets could you point to a definitive 'price' on an exchange because you cannot actually trade them on an exchange.
The FTSE rolling bet (for instance) does not exist. You cannot buy or sell 'the FTSE 100' in 1 point wide. And the price is therefore derived from the Futures markets. The FTSE index value is only calculated by the exchanges once every 15 seconds. At any moment why not actually sit and count how many price changes the futures market in the FTSE makes in 15 secs. It could easily move up 5 points and back down 10 meaning that 'the exchange' would show a five point move lower from one print to the next but the SB company would show a price move of up 5 before falling 10. The fact that the 'exchange' does not show the price move does not mean that it did not happen.
No doubt somebody would claim that this was a 'spike' BUT IT ISNT. It is a legitimate price action move. A spike is a print from an exchange that is later removed from the exchange records. We had a big one about three years ago on the dow futures.
As I have commented several times on this thread "please give a definitive example of a stop not actually fairly hit". Merely being taken out at the high or low of a move is unlucky but not unfair. Our computers are unfeeling and automatic.. if they print the price your stop will be activated.
Simon
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Phil Mibbutz
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When would it not? I haven't come across a circumstance when a stop hasn't been filled and there has been a trade through my level. I suppose it's theoretically possible if the market trades 50 60 50 and you have a stop at 55. Your order should be executed though; ifthe next trades are all at 70 you'd reasonably be arguing that you should have been filled at 50.
Yes you would say this as its in your firms intrest to do so.
Dose you firm of set bets in to the market ?
How dose the cash price of an index reflect on the actuall futures activity ?
Over the years unorthadox methods have been used by SB firms to skure spreads and quotes. If I could have a better life style by working for a reglatory body to closely monitor SB firms I would be the first volentear for the work.
SB firms are regulated, but then again so was Northen Rock , HBOS and look what they have got away with .....
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capitalspreads
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phil
if you had a stop in DMA and the market traded through the trigger level please tell me how it could not be activated. Not only that but all stop orders are 'at market' and filled at the first available price. The vast majority of stops with CS are filled at the requested level whether there was liquidity there or not.
tomtom
again abuse with no facts. For all the comment can somebody, anyone, come up with a clear actual audited event where we have 'biased' our price against the underlying market to 'take out' a stop. As I have said "being taken out on a 'high' or 'low' is not our fault or design it is just the market".
the price of our Rolling Indices is just the futures market plus or minus a set number, generally called the 'fair value'. This is the calculated difference between the futures price and the price today taking into account interest costs and expected dividend payments. This has been gone into in great detail on most of the threads on t2w
simon
if you had a stop in DMA and the market traded through the trigger level please tell me how it could not be activated. Not only that but all stop orders are 'at market' and filled at the first available price. The vast majority of stops with CS are filled at the requested level whether there was liquidity there or not.
tomtom
again abuse with no facts. For all the comment can somebody, anyone, come up with a clear actual audited event where we have 'biased' our price against the underlying market to 'take out' a stop. As I have said "being taken out on a 'high' or 'low' is not our fault or design it is just the market".
the price of our Rolling Indices is just the futures market plus or minus a set number, generally called the 'fair value'. This is the calculated difference between the futures price and the price today taking into account interest costs and expected dividend payments. This has been gone into in great detail on most of the threads on t2w
simon
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Trader333
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Because when using DMA you can specify how the stop is triggered. For example, you could use "double last" which means that if a price was spike traded and did not trade at another price beyond the stop price and then came back to where it was the stop would not be triggered. It is used quite commonly to prevent being stopped out by just this type of event.
Are you really not aware of this option in direct access trading ?
Paul
Interesting. Which exchange supports that?
capitalspreads
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trader33
no .. not of this exact option. i was aware of the fact that there are various 'rinky dink' routes. But this is not an 'exchange' offering it is the API unit you use to trade through. Unfortunately this wonderful tool virtually ensures that every stop is filled at a worse level than expected. I is a moot point. Do you put the stop another few more pips away or do you have a "double last" ? Both of these would effectively do the same thing.
No SB (as far as I know) allows API links because of the fact that they are market makers and do not have exchange liquidity over data releases etc.
I, personally, do not trade through DMA as I find it too restrictive and expensive.
Simon
no .. not of this exact option. i was aware of the fact that there are various 'rinky dink' routes. But this is not an 'exchange' offering it is the API unit you use to trade through. Unfortunately this wonderful tool virtually ensures that every stop is filled at a worse level than expected. I is a moot point. Do you put the stop another few more pips away or do you have a "double last" ? Both of these would effectively do the same thing.
No SB (as far as I know) allows API links because of the fact that they are market makers and do not have exchange liquidity over data releases etc.
I, personally, do not trade through DMA as I find it too restrictive and expensive.
Simon
Thanks for that - C Spreads
I have been using them for a week now and have lost consistently - there also seems to be a delay in closing a trade and opening one - as I am new to this, it's very frustrating because by that time, I have lost precious pips.
Thanks for the info
I have been using them for a week now and have lost consistently - there also seems to be a delay in closing a trade and opening one - as I am new to this, it's very frustrating because by that time, I have lost precious pips.
Thanks for the info
