Cancelled oil trades

[pboyles]

Does anyone for a moment think that if he'd lost 18k doing this it would have been a manifest error?

 

[pboyles]

It's like the situation a few years back when people were complaining about poor slippage in FX trades, they would get shouted down and told 'don't blame the broker for your losses'. Then we discovered that the brokers were to blame in many cases and that slippage and prices were being manipulated to defraud clients.

 

[Hakuna Matata]

Does anyone for a moment think that if he'd lost 18k doing this it would have been a manifest error?

I was going to say that it was good of them to bust both ends of the trades he did, and not just bust the dodgy longs leaving him waaay short and - presumably, looking at the chart - getting carted out.

That used to happen on eurex (never to me mind)

 

[whenwilljack]

I agree pboyles. If I'd have taken a loss here I would have moved on not realising that 'incorrect' prices had been trades. I think there is zero chance they then would have emailed me and said 'sorry sir, that losing trade you did on oil was a manifest error so here's your losses back'. I actually broached that subject with them and asked how many other trades had been cancelled apart from mine. Not surprisingly they didnt answer.

I would really have expected them to show more integrity and say 'well we made the mistake, there may be a way out with via the small print but that would be sneaky and slimy so let's take on the chin what in the context of things is not a huge loss. At least our error has been pointed out to us and we can rectify it'. I really don't like it when a mistake is made and someone tries to wriggle out of it scott-free. Stinks that a large powerful corporation who make their money predominantly off individuals still feel the need to stack the cards in their favour further.

Hakuna - in their email they did actually say that they would be within their rights to amend all the incorrect prices after the trade which would have left me significantly in the hole. This struck me as a bit absurd as it was bad enough they were taking profits away let alone converting them to losses! Seemed a little like a threat in fact

 

[pboyles]

Sneaky and slimy. You just described every SB and retail forex broker in those three words.

 

[gle101]

I agree pboyles. If I'd have taken a loss here I would have moved on not realising that 'incorrect' prices had been trades. I think there is zero chance they then would have emailed me and said 'sorry sir, that losing trade you did on oil was a manifest error so here's your losses back'. I actually broached that subject with them and asked how many other trades had been cancelled apart from mine. Not surprisingly they didnt answer.

I would really have expected them to show more integrity and say 'well we made the mistake, there may be a way out with via the small print but that would be sneaky and slimy so let's take on the chin what in the context of things is not a huge loss. At least our error has been pointed out to us and we can rectify it'. I really don't like it when a mistake is made and someone tries to wriggle out of it scott-free. Stinks that a large powerful corporation who make their money predominantly off individuals still feel the need to stack the cards in their favour further.

Hakuna - in their email they did actually say that they would be within their rights to amend all the incorrect prices after the trade which would have left me significantly in the hole. This struck me as a bit absurd as it was bad enough they were taking profits away let alone converting them to losses! Seemed a little like a threat in fact

Sorry to hear you made trades in good faith and the profit taken back. But you have to realize this happens trading in the real market as well, having in mind some of the stocks that lost almost all value during the flash crash. In fact I think the SB in question did give you a good offer, this if, it is evident after analyzing the trades that the price given were in fact faulty.

 

[whenwilljack]

Sneaky and slimy. You just described every SB and retail forex broker in those three words.

Sucks doesn't it? And I guess there's nothing I can do about it and just have to accept it?

 

[whenwilljack]

Sorry to hear you made trades in good faith and the profit taken back. But you have to realize this happens trading in the real market as well, having in mind some of the stocks that lost almost all value during the flash crash. In fact I think the SB in question did give you a good offer, this if, it is evident after analyzing the trades that the price given were in fact faulty.

Thanks for your opinion gle. Although I feel let down by the situation I am open to other perspectives, and not against admitting I'm wrong if it turns out that way. I have to confess I am not aware of the nuances of the unwinding of flash crash trades. Still can't help feeling that £25 compared to £18k is insulting though.

 

[ffsear]

Does anyone for a moment think that if he'd lost 18k doing this it would have been a manifest error?

Having worked in spread betting and spent a lot of my time sorting out manifest errors. I'd say yes they would have. You cancel all trades between certain specific times. It a system input. It would take hours to pick and choose just the trades you want to cancel.

If an SB firm were found to be profiting from erroneous prices, the FSA would destroy them

On a number of occasions we would cancel trades that ended in a credit to the client.

 

[gle101]

Thanks for your opinion gle. Although I feel let down by the situation I am open to other perspectives, and not against admitting I'm wrong if it turns out that way. I have to confess I am not aware of the nuances of the unwinding of flash crash trades. Still can't help feeling that £25 compared to £18k is insulting though.

I absolutely understand your feelings regarding this incident, it is after all a lot of money at stake. But you have to ask yourself, were the prices you traded on based on a technical feed error. If the answer is without a doubt yes, I would take the £50 and go on with this incident as a learning experience.

 

[whenwilljack]

I absolutely understand your feelings regarding this incident, it is after all a lot of money at stake. But you have to ask yourself, were the prices you traded on based on a technical feed error. If the answer is without a doubt yes, I would take the £50 and go on with this incident as a learning experience.

I guess that's where my doubt regarding the manifest error comes in. At the time I certainly didnt think the prices were based on a technical error. The prices were only in a 20 cent range around the correct level that oil was trading at the time so it wasn't blatant that prices were incorrect. In hindsight I can accept there was a data feed error (GKFX said as much, I wouldnt expect to make so much so quick, you guys have cross-checked the prices etc). I was hoping the manifest error would only cover 'blatant' errors but it appears it covers all errors regardless of how small or obvious.

As you say a learning experience. I learnt the little guy always gets screwed At least I have a good story down the pub - shame they took the £50 away or I woulda got the drinks in!

Thanks for your comments

 

[whenwilljack]

Having worked in spread betting and spent a lot of my time sorting out manifest errors. I'd say yes they would have. You cancel all trades between certain specific times. It a system input. It would take hours to pick and choose just the trades you want to cancel.

If an SB firm were found to be profiting from erroneous prices, the FSA would destroy them

On a number of occasions we would cancel trades that ended in a credit to the client.

I'd have to question who would have noticed the manifest error in the event of losses to me. I wasn't aware at the time, and GKFX clearly didn't know about the pricing error until I made money. If these assumptions are correct then I assumed risk with no chance of reward which doesn't seem fair.

 

[gle101]

I'd have to question who would have noticed the manifest error in the event of losses to me. I wasn't aware at the time, and GKFX clearly didn't know about the pricing error until I made money. If these assumptions are correct then I assumed risk with no chance of reward which doesn't seem fair.

I have had my own negative experience with GKFX, but that was in another kind of matter and not regarding quoted prices. In fact, over the years I have traded with them I have had no issues regarding the price feed. Whether you notice the manifest error or not doesn't matter as I see it. You traded on prices that did not reflect the underlying asset, so they have every right to correct these trades. If your stakes were small they might have let it go, but with big stakes they took action and that is what to be expected, especially if the deviation were substantial compared to that of the underlying asset.

 

[Hakuna Matata]

I agree pboyles. If I'd have taken a loss here I would have moved on not realising that 'incorrect' prices had been trades. I think there is zero chance they then would have emailed me and said 'sorry sir, that losing trade you did on oil was a manifest error so here's your losses back'. I actually broached that subject with them and asked how many other trades had been cancelled apart from mine. Not surprisingly they didnt answer.

I would really have expected them to show more integrity and say 'well we made the mistake, there may be a way out with via the small print but that would be sneaky and slimy so let's take on the chin what in the context of things is not a huge loss. At least our error has been pointed out to us and we can rectify it'. I really don't like it when a mistake is made and someone tries to wriggle out of it scott-free. Stinks that a large powerful corporation who make their money predominantly off individuals still feel the need to stack the cards in their favour further.

Hakuna - in their email they did actually say that they would be within their rights to amend all the incorrect prices after the trade which would have left me significantly in the hole. This struck me as a bit absurd as it was bad enough they were taking profits away let alone converting them to losses! Seemed a little like a threat in fact

Well look - if you don't like it, you can vote with your feet and take your account elsewehere or trade on different venues.

The bottom line is that GKFX are well within their rights to correct the prices of the erroneous trades leaving you with a pretty large dent in your account. Be grateful they are treating you faitly by ditching the whole series of transactions.

And, like I said, this thing happens on other venues too, often where only one side of a "trade" is ditched, which, can lead to margin calls etc. If you don't like the rules of the game, don't play. TBH I think you were a bit naive not to be suspicious of the price action when you saw it in the first place.

 

[Shakone]

Yeah if you feel threatened then leave. But even trades on exchanges can get busted.

 

[ffsear]

I'd have to question who would have noticed the manifest error in the event of losses to me. I wasn't aware at the time, and GKFX clearly didn't know about the pricing error until I made money. If these assumptions are correct then I assumed risk with no chance of reward which doesn't seem fair.

Losses to you, but then other clients would have won. All trades for all clients would have been canceled across the instruments where manifest errors occur.

An SB firm doesn't look at individuals trades (unless your on dealer referral.) All trades are fed into a position monitor and its treated as one position.

 

[whenwilljack]

Fair enough guys. I am far from experienced in these matters so happy to defer to your wider experiences. It appears then that GKFX are acting fairer than my gut was telling me. Shame I didn't ask you all first before turning down the £50

Thanks for all the comments

 

[dcarrigan]

Fair enough guys. I am far from experienced in these matters so happy to defer to your wider experiences. It appears then that GKFX are acting fairer than my gut was telling me. Shame I didn't ask you all first before turning down the £50

Thanks for all the comments

i trade CL ( usa oil futures)
with ib. no issues ever. only downfall is margin but its there to protect you. if your trading CL active time is 2pm/7.30 pm uk time as when floor open. $10 a contact

 

[yellowfloyd]

Hi all,

Last Friday morning I had an unusual situation occur. I was watching the oil markets and noticed volatility increase. I wasn’t aware of why this was happening but noticed that, while price movements were volatile and jumpy, they were fairly consistent and repetitive. I've attached a chart to show what I'm talking about. This presented me with a viable strategy of selling towards the top of the range and buying towards the bottom, which is what I went on to do. Over the next hour or so I made just under £18k doing this.

Now of course it seemed unusual to me (my hourly rate is a little less than this normally!), but I was surprised when my broker froze the markets for a while. This was quickly followed by an email from them to say they had cancelled the trades and taken away all associated profits. Their reason for this is that they are claiming a data error and that they are entitled to cancel the trades under the 'manifest error' of their T&Cs. I don't have any evidence that prices were wrong - as you can see the prices being quoted didn't differ widely from preceding price action - but assume the broker wouldn't lie about it. I don't want to name the broker at this stage as I'm not trying to unduly muddy their name but they are a large UK based firm.

I wondered if anyone had a similar experience at all, or any knowledge of this 'manifest error'? I genuinely don't know what the correct outcome should be here which is why I'm asking for advice. My gut feeling is that they probably have covered their backs in the endless T&Cs, but I can't get away from the feeling that this is their mistake but I am the one bearing the cost. I also think about when a shop offers a price wrong they honour it, except when price is so obviously wrong it has to be a mistake. I think (hope!) the manifest error should be there to cover this type of scenario (e.g. their systems offering gold at $1.4 instead of $1,400 which would bankrupt them), rather than oil merely being priced a few cents incorrectly. What do you guys think?

The other thing is that I was assuming risk on each of the trades. Had the market moved against me on the first trade giving me a loss would the broker have been emailing me to say they were refunding me? I doubt it. I'd love to know how many other trades, particularly losers, were cancelled in oil during this time period. To think i undertook this risk for nothing leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Few final points:

- they offered me £25 (rising to £50 when I told them it was insulting) goodwill gesture. Does anyone else find this insulting?! It had the feeling to me of give the guy some loose change in the hope he'll go away. Maybe I'm wrong and it was a genuine goodwill gesture but acted more like a kick in the balls after they took £18k from me. They also removed the gesture entirely when I told them (politely) it was insulting which I thought was petty
- I've had their final response (basically 'screw you') and submitted a claim to the UK financial ombudsman. Don't hold much hope but no harm in trying
- I can post the email conversation i had with them if people are interested
- I'm gonna post this in a few places so apologies if you see it elsewhere

Any opinions/ experiences welcomed?

Thanks,
WWJ

I would think that if they are lying about this being a ‘glitch’, the Ombudsman would pick this up and you’d probably win. If they’re a large, reputable firm, I would think it unlikely that they’re lying. There’s too much to lose for them.

I would verify this by looking at price history with another provider. Perhaps open up a few more accounts with brokers and check the price history on their charting packages? Worth a try if £18k is at stake!

Good point about the other side of the coin – if you’d lost, error or not, would they have rebated your losses? Unlikely! Worth making this point, but assuming they’re not lying about the price, I would imagine they’re well covered.

It’s an interesting one, would like to know the outcome – keep us posted.

 

[WR1]

massive spike down on Alpari on Brent (of 600pips) on the 22nd Aug (but not on ICE)
or when looking online for the days price movement

some knew the move was about to happen and did what they had to do
i think we can all work out why strange things happen around strong market movements